Excavating/grading question

[jpcjguy]

Hi all,

So I am looking to level out my backyard a bit. It is a 2 acre property and I would build a retaining wall where I am cutting into the ground. Here is an aerial view:

Section A is where I will be taking the dirt and moving it section B. I also want to level out the dip in section B (arrows) The black line in section B will be a 80' 12" pipe for drainage from the tree area to the neighbors yard. BTW, I have never seen any moving water in that area - even in the heaviest rains, I think it is a "just in case". The green line that is 350' is going to be a driveway for the detached garage I am planning to locate where the shed is currently. (Shed will be moved)

Here is a side view of section B:

The red line is the slope I want to achieve - don't want a dip in the driveway to the planned garage.

Here is section A from the patio:

The red lines indicate the "cut" I want to do to get rid of the slope. I am looking at going 4-5' down.

Another angle with area in red affected:

One more angle pic:

So based on this - what kind of equipment should I use? Rent something myself? If so what type/size?
What kind of time frame should this take?
I have received some ridiculous quotes - anywhere from 12k-25k.

I also found a guy that would do it with his tractor at $85/hr. This is what he has:

His estimate was 2-3 days (only going by my pics and obviously does not account for school bus sized rocks that might be underground.

What do you all think? First time dealing with this type of job. Oh, I am outside Richmond, VA.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[Bondo]

Ayuh,.... I think if ya rent a piece of equipment, the final tally will be approchin' the lower of yer estimates,...

I also think the guy with the kobota is Dreamin' to think that tractor can do the job in 3 days,....

We've got a Ford 555 backhoe,...
I'd try it, but figure a week of workin' long days,...
A Dozer, 'n a Loader, maybe a couple of days,...

 

[jpcjguy]

Ayuh,.... I think if ya rent a piece of equipment, the final tally will be approchin' the lower of yer estimates,...

I also think the guy with the kobota is Dreamin' to think that tractor can do the job in 3 days,....

We've got a Ford 555 backhoe,...
I'd try it, but figure a week of workin' long days,...
A Dozer, 'n a Loader, maybe a couple of days,...

Really? Remember - the deepest part is about 4-5' and gets shallower from there. looking at this pic:

The "high" point is right in front of the rock in front of the playset. The part of the yellow slide on the right side of the pic is almost at the level plane - maybe 6-8" taken there - if that. That span from the rock "high" point to the slide is about 30'ish feet.

 

[Catadj78]

I don't know much about excavating but I would think you need to have some sort of permit and engineer plans as if for some reason your plan does not work and floods neighboring houses you could be liable.

If out in the country with no neighbors do what you want but with other houses so close I would cover my rear

 

[8man]

Nice tractor, but it won't achieve compaction that you need if you are going to put a driveway or a building over any of the fill.

 

[Pluribus]

A few questions come to mind. What kind of relationship do you have with your neighbor, and what kind of relationship do you expect to have after this project? Does your AHJ have grading and drainage permit requirements? That's a lot of earth you want to move.

From the looks of this, you'll be filling a swale that probably absorbs a lot of runoff into the ground currently. Collecting and concentrating that runoff and dumping it at a single point to flow into the neighbor's yard is likely going to create different conditions there than before. Since it looks like the road is higher than their yard, it might go (or stay) where your neighbor doesn't want it. In most places, this is illegal. Potentially, feelings will be hurt; complaints will be filed; attorneys will be involved; nobody will win...except the attorneys.

All I have to go on is the pictures and description, but what I see raises some red flags.

 

[larry4406]

Look real close at the aerial view to the "bottom" of area A. Note the parallel stripes in the yard. I would guess that is your active drainfield.

I would do nothing unless I was certain that the active and reserve drainfields are not compromised.

 

[jpcjguy]

I don't know much about excavating but I would think you need to have some sort of permit and engineer plans as if for some reason your plan does not work and floods neighboring houses you could be liable.

If out in the country with no neighbors do what you want but with other houses so close I would cover my rear

Good point. I plan on getting all required permits from the county. As for draining into the neighbors yard, his "side" continues the swell and goes into a large pipe under his driveway. It is where any excess what would go anyway.

 

[LB-1911]

Look real close at the aerial view to the "bottom" of area A. Note the parallel stripes in the yard. I would guess that is your active drainfield.

I would do nothing unless I was certain that the active and reserve drain fields are not compromised.

^^ This^^

Are you in possession of your as built for your septic system?

 

[jpcjguy]

A few questions come to mind. What kind of relationship do you have with your neighbor, and what kind of relationship do you expect to have after this project? Does your AHJ have grading and drainage permit requirements? That's a lot of earth you want to move.

From the looks of this, you'll be filling a swale that probably absorbs a lot of runoff into the ground currently. Collecting and concentrating that runoff and dumping it at a single point to flow into the neighbor's yard is likely going to create different conditions there than before. Since it looks like the road is higher than their yard, it might go (or stay) where your neighbor doesn't want it. In most places, this is illegal. Potentially, feelings will be hurt; complaints will be filed; attorneys will be involved; nobody will win...except the attorneys.

All I have to go on is the pictures and description, but what I see raises some red flags.

AHJ? Not familiar with that acronym. I will get all permits required. I appreciate the feedback regarding water run-off, but there has never been any moving water in the swell. There will also still be a natural slope from the back of the property to the road, so any water would go that direction. Which then drains off into the ditches at the front of the property and back down the natural swell in my neighbors yard. I will, of course, review my plans with him before doing anything to prevent bad blood, attorneys, etc.

 

[LB-1911]

AHJ?

Not familiar with that acronym.

I will get all permits required.

Authority Having Jurisdiction

Have you completed a Site Plan yet?

Your previous thread;

septic system question
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260576

 

[jpcjguy]

Look real close at the aerial view to the "bottom" of area A. Note the parallel stripes in the yard. I would guess that is your active drainfield.

I would do nothing unless I was certain that the active and reserve drainfields are not compromised.

Great eyes! Yes that is my septic drain field. I talked to the septic guy and told him what I was planning and he was fine with it by memory of the property. When I actually get ready to start, I will have him come out and re-verify the plans and get his ok. I would stop short of the first "finger". He stated that my field is about 6 feet underground and what I was doing would have no impact. I was also worried about equipment over the drain field and he said that as long as it is not super heavy - i.e. loaded semi, I should be fine.

 

[jpcjguy]

Authority Having Jurisdiction

Have you completed a Site Plan yet?

Your previous thread;

septic system question
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260576

Ah! Brain fart. No site plan yet. Pool idea is scrapped - down to just moving some dirt around -leveling the back some so when you step off the patio you are not climbing a hill. Also the septic drain field fingers need to be filled/leveled a little - mowing the "whoop dees" is getting old.

 

[Pluribus]

AHJ = Agency (or Authority) Having Jurisdiction

My concern with water was that by getting rid of the swale where water is being absorbed into the ground currently (eg: no current water flow,) water will be collected into the culvert and will be flowing into the neighbor's yard. Sounds like that issue is covered though.

Good on you for covering this with permits and, especially your neighbor.

 

[jpcjguy]

I also wonder if I could get away with a small hill instead of the cost of a retaining wall. Something like this:

 

[Kingcreek]

Just on cost basis alone, I would consider bringing in fill dirt for the garage/drive (if it doesn't cause the other aforementioned problems) and leave the backyard alone. Unless you just have to have a level backyard- for a pool or basketball or volleyball court etc.
The owner of the loader tractor is delusional. I've got an L-series Kubota like the one posted and its going to take forever to move that much dirt across the property.

 

[DekeT]

Ayuh,.... I think if ya rent a piece of equipment, the final tally will be approchin' the lower of yer estimates,...

I also think the guy with the kobota is Dreamin' to think that tractor can do the job in 3 days,....

We've got a Ford 555 backhoe,...
I'd try it, but figure a week of workin' long days,...
A Dozer, 'n a Loader, maybe a couple of days,...

This project has disaster written all over it. That Kubota guy is delusional, not dreaming. This whole project looks to me to be a fool's errand. There is good reason his quotes were $10K+. The guy's estimate of 2-3 days is the time it may take him to give up or break his cute little Bota.

 

[alfazer]

I'm in a whole different country and not sure about your type of earth, but here we call it top soil and sub soil (clay) or maybe some rock. We strip the top soil off, about 12" deep, and keep to one side for later. Then we get to work on the subsoil and when it's sorted, we put top soil back on top, so the grass can grow on it. But don't put the topsoil back where you are making the driveway, because topsoil is not structural, you can't build on it.

I would think that's a job for a 360 degree excavator, the type on tracks. Maybe 12 ton or bigger because you have plenty of space. It digs and empties into a farm tractor trailer which tips it up where you want it. One trailer is enough because the distance is short.

Then take the excavator and level it all out. Bring some quarry rock to make the driveway and use the machine to spread the rock maybe foot deep or more depending on how stable your subsoil is.

I don't understand how that tractor in the picture would do the job at all.

 

[TonkaJoe]

I have several years of experience in mining and road/water/sewer excavation... I wouldn't bother with the tractor, time consuming and you don't know what you may run into underground ( utilities, rocks, soil type, etc)
You have a few options!.
- A mini excavator and track skid steer.... Something like a John Deere 60D Excavator with a spade tooth bucket around 0.25 Yds3 capacity would dig your 4-5' to a rough grade with no trouble at all as well as help unload/carry and drop your pipe into position, work around utilities etc. A John Deere 333D Track skid steer has the ability to move dirt as well as set a finish grade to both work areas

- A front end loader... such as a244J or 524K Deere loader would be ideal. Both are able to move rocks etc, off load and move your pipe with ease.

-OR last but not least... you could also go the route of a backhoe.. something like a 310J has a 1.25CU yard bucket capacity (also a Deere machine) which will allow you to easily excavate to depth(14.5' dig depth),work around obstacle's, move dirt, set a finish grade, move and position pipe etc. This would basically give you 2 machines in one, and would be my machine of choice based on your pictures. All depending on your ability to Operate the machine to it's potential you can definitely achieve the results you are looking to get. If the low lying area has a chance of being waterlogged, the model is also available in 4x4.
From my stand point If you could spend 2 or 3 good weather days working on the project I think you could complete it no problem. You'd need to excavate as large of an area as you could from side to side with the hoe, stockpile the material then spend a short amount of time moving the overburden from point A-B. Making sure you have good full buckets of material both with the hoe and the loader bucket on each move will make you most productive which in return saves you time and money!. Hope this helps!

 

[TonkaJoe]

Keep in mind like the above comments state, make sure you survey for utilities.. follow any by-laws, etc.. that stuff can lead to a lot of trouble if improperly followed. Definitely watch for " natural" run off areas etc, sometimes disturbing them can cause more of an issue than having them work in your favor.

 

[RPH]

Is there a specific reason for grading it? I think county/ city will step in and tell you not likely to happen. They are very cautious of moving the water onto someone else's property. Without a specific reason other than I want it flatter I think the permit will be denied and if it isn't then the cost will be the problem. Lots of work to be done here from the beginning to the final product.

 

[boiler7904]

What is the cross-slope like on the proposed driveway? Will it need a retaining wall on high side once final graded and paved? Do you really need to fill this area to make the driveway work? The last you want to do is change the surface drainage / pervious material such that your neighbor's yard or house flood after your work ends.

Personally I'd leave area A alone. Strip the topsoil off of area B and import fill. If your area is like mine, there are always guys looking for places to dump fill dirt - you just have to make sure it is clean (debris, chemically, radiologically, etc.). Respread the topsoil and plant new grass. Done.

Guy with the Kubota is dreamin unless he has a truck to do the hauling from one side of the yard to the other and even that might be a stretch to pull off in 2 or 3 days. Like someone else mentioned, you need to get proper compaction on the fill or you'll get to do this again in a couple of years to fix a smaller low spot.

 

[jpcjguy]

The reason for the grading is twofold. I need to put in a drainage pipe and fill in where the driveway to the garage is at a minimum. Since I need dirt and rather than paying to have truckloads brought in, I would take from the backyard since it would be nice level it out some and make it more kid friendly. I have 4 yr old twin boys and an 18 month daughter and have a more level/smooth backyard will make playing soccer, football, etc. more enjoyable.
Initial thought was to do all of it when the garage excavation/footings are being done since the equipment is on the property anyway but it looks like the garage might be delayed a bit (new HVAC, roof, etc. - $$$). Also by doing the dirt moving now, it can settle until I pull the trigger on the garage. This way I can see how much more dirt I need for the driveway (ideally only a little at that point) or any needed regrading "touch up" based on watching water flow, etc.

 

[jpcjguy]

What is the cross-slope like on the proposed driveway? Will it need a retaining wall on high side once final graded and paved? Do you really need to fill this area to make the driveway work? The last you want to do is change the surface drainage / pervious material such that your neighbor's yard or house flood after your work ends.

Personally I'd leave area A alone. Strip the topsoil off of area B and import fill. If your area is like mine, there are always guys looking for places to dump fill dirt - you just have to make sure it is clean (debris, chemically, radiologically, etc.). Respread the topsoil and plant new grass. Done.

Guy with the Kubota is dreamin unless he has a truck to do the hauling from one side of the yard to the other and even that might be a stretch to pull off in 2 or 3 days. Like someone else mentioned, you need to get proper compaction on the fill or you'll get to do this again in a couple of years to fix a smaller low spot.

Cross slope is pretty level. Here is an older street view:

No retaining walls needed.

 

[brycez28]

I had a guy did a hole in my yard with a skidsteer. Hole was width of the bucket 5'?, 3.5' deep and 2.5' flat at the bottom and then the ramp to the bottom (for underground rain barrel). Took an hour with just dumping the dirt next to the hole and partially filling in the ramp after afterward.

 

[jpcjguy]

Another street view showing current slopes. Overall it is pretty level.

Red line is roughly where driveway would be. Slight elevation from street to garage in the back

 

[jpcjguy]

Pic from more the neighbors property. The red lines are the current natural water way. The blue line is where my pipe would be and the blue dots would be where water from the pipe would join the existing swell on his property.

 

[Bondo]

Cross slope is pretty level. Here is an older street view:

No retaining walls needed.

Ayuh,.... Where, exactly is the new garage goin' in this picture,..??

Considerin' yer timin',...
I suggest ya hire a driveway type contractor(or do it yerself), 'n box out the driveway run, 'n the garage footprint, then fill, 'n compact it with stone,...
The top dirt dug outa the box-out will go along ways regradin' the yard to match the driveway/ surroundin' land,...
It'll all be well settled/ compacted, by the time yer ready for the garage,...

By the looks of things, the culvert pipe oughta go at the road's edge,...
Then cut a swale from wherever necessary, to the roadside ditch,...

Then, if ya want, whatever equipment on-site could cut down, 'n dress off yer "Play area",...

 

[jpcjguy]

Ayuh,.... Where, exactly is the new garage goin' in this picture,..??

Considerin' yer timin',...
I suggest ya hire a driveway type contractor(or do it yerself), 'n box out the driveway run, 'n the garage footprint, then fill, 'n compact it with stone,...
The top dirt dug outa the box-out will go along ways regradin' the yard to match the driveway/ surroundin' land,...
It'll all be well settled/ compacted, by the time yer ready for the garage,...

By the looks of things, the culvert pipe oughta go at the road's edge,...
Then cut a swale from wherever necessary, to the roadside ditch,...

Then, if ya want, whatever equipment on-site could cut down, 'n dress off yer "Play area",...

Honestly - where the garage is going is almost perfectly flat. (back by the white fence in that picture) The only dirt I see coming from there is from where the footings will be. And being in VA, they are not that deep.

 

[Bondo]

Honestly - where the garage is going is almost perfectly flat. (back by the white fence in that picture) The only dirt I see coming from there is from where the footings will be. And being in VA, they are not that deep.

Ayuh,... The Entire footprint of the garage, And the driveway, oughta be boxed out(remove top dirt) down atleast 6",...
Then ya fill the hole ya dug with stone, for a solid base,...

That's alota take out material,...

 

[jpcjguy]

Ayuh,... The Entire footprint of the garage, And the driveway, oughta be boxed out(remove top dirt) down atleast 6",...
Then ya fill the hole ya dug with stone, for a solid base,...

That's alota take out material,...

That is true. Forgot about that.

Jesus - what sounded as a fairly straight forward plan is not so simple.

What I was trying to prevent is:
a) minimize paying for trucking dirt/fill in or out
b) not wreck the whole yard at one time so the family hates me
c) see how the yard reacts to being "reworked" before the garage starts so that I can control costs better - (minimize blowing the budget)

 

[DonPowers]

Call Dig Safe for a permit for the removal of soil. Where I live there is no charge for the survey and they can usually perform it within a couple of days. This is typically the responsibility of the excavating contractor, but the owner can call as well. Better to be safe than sorry.

You may also want to consider using crushed stone, such as 3/4 minus (sometimes referred to as 3/4 dense or just processed stone) on your new driveway. It compacts nicely and doesn't turn to mush when wet. If you are using top soil for fill, place it in 6" lifts, compacting each lift, before you surface it. If it were me doing the work, I would put stone all the way down under the driveway.

 

[zkdiesel]

That is true. Forgot about that.

Jesus - what sounded as a fairly straight forward plan is not so simple.

What I was trying to prevent is:
a) minimize paying for trucking dirt/fill in or out
b) not wreck the whole yard at one time so the family hates me
c) see how the yard reacts to being "reworked" before the garage starts so that I can control costs better - (minimize blowing the budget)

Everything you talk about doing Is going to cost can and cause b and c

Put the word put to contractors that you have a site to dump clean clay or black fill at. I'm a few months you would have enough free fill that one day with a skidsteer can accomplish what you want without destroying whole uadd

 

[toplessHO]

Everything you talk about doing Is going to cost can and cause b and c

Put the word put to contractors that you have a site to dump clean clay or black fill at. I'm a few months you would have enough free fill that one day with a skidsteer can accomplish what you want without destroying whole uadd

If I was a neighbor in a nice looking neighborhood like that I would be madder than a wet hen to see dirt pile dumpsite for months.
Rent a large loader and a mini hoe and get it done asap once you start. You can move alot of dirt with a 3 or 4 yd loader.
Make sure you have plenty of grade stakes set on offsets to speed up the leveling

 

[toplessHO]

And BTW I have a large JD backhoe and still hire a big loader when moving lots of dirt.
It will have enough weight to it while traveling loaded to compact the soil

 

[jpcjguy]

Sounds like hiring a loader is the best option. Granted you can rent them at sunbelt rentals for $700/day or 1800/wk. Maybe get that to do the big dirt moving and get that tractor guy to do the finish grading.
I do appreciate everyone's input. Very informative!

 

[Platonic Solid]

Have a surveyor make you before (now) and proposed topographic maps. Town hall's going to require it anyway to get the permit.
Did you answer the question about the leaching field - where is it?

 

[ABADWILLYS]

A 2nd driveway for the shop off the main road? different from the house? Here you wouldnt be able to do that, because of the 911 system,they dont allow 2 driveways for one address might want to be sure you can do that..people do have 2 driveways,around here but they are grandfathered in
My shop i had to cut into a hill about 5 feet, i hired a guy with an excavator to do the job,still took a few days to prepare my site, we also have rock around here, i had to rent a mama jama tracked jack hammer to break them up too

 

[bczygan]

A couple of things.

First, in most jurisdictions you cannot regrade or contour your property so that it increases the natural flow and quantity of water that goes from your property to that of a neighbor. So that pipe is not a good idea.

Secondly, when I design a site, I try to minimize changes to the existing contours as much as possible. And I avoid retaining walls at all costs. They are expensive to build in a way that will allow water to pass around them and avoid having hydrostatic pressure topple them.

I always place buildings where no cut is required, except the removal of organic material. Then I create a building pad with compacted fill, that raises the finish floor elevation 6" to 8" above the highest adjacent grade.

The beauty of your site is the rolling terrain. I would be careful not to turn it into a flat parking lot or bowling green. In fact, I would landscape it in ways that highlighted the natural beauty of it's sloping features.

And instead of a big block of a giant industrial looking garage, I would be looking for ways to break it into a more variegated and residential look.

Just a thought.

Additional:

I just took a longer look at your site. What is the size and scope of the intended shop/garage space? If it is to be a very large, active and noisy space, then a detached location is needed. If it is to mostly add garage space with some additional space for shop activities, then I would simply add on to the existing garage. The present plan uses up half your lot, between drive and shop.

 

[LB-1911]

Did you answer the question about the leaching field - where is it?

Look real close at the aerial view to the "bottom" of area A. Note the parallel stripes in the yard. I would guess that is your active drainfield.

I would do nothing unless I was certain that the active and reserve drainfields are not compromised.

Great eyes! Yes that is my septic drain field. I talked to the septic guy and told him what I was planning and he was fine with it by memory of the property. When I actually get ready to start, I will have him come out and re-verify the plans and get his ok. I would stop short of the first "finger". He stated that my field is about 6 feet underground and what I was doing would have no impact. I was also worried about equipment over the drain field and he said that as long as it is not super heavy - i.e. loaded semi, I should be fine.

Photo from previous thread -

septic system question
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260576

Hi all,

I have a question on my septic system. I am debating on a pool for the kiddos but my septic is system is in the back yard. It is off to the right a little bit but wondering if it is a problem - I would think the worst case is that one of the leach field "fingers" could be moved. What do you all think about the "plan". Here are some pics: