Experience with polybutylene pipe?

[bbxlr8]

Hi all,

Done way more than my share of plumbing over the years, but just encountered a new one to me. Prep'ing to help my future son-in-law replace his leaking water heater and he told me it had grey pipe - looked like old-school pex...? Had him take some pictures and get me the info off it which was Vanguard plastics thermoguard ASTM D-3309. Quick google search and learned all about polybutylene fiasco. Short version - need to get it gone ASAP.

Here's the question - Has anyone worked with it before and how brittle is it? Also, how do you cut it? No idea how old but last used in the early to mid 90's. House is 50's era so prob put in 70-80s. Way past borrowed time from what I read

BUT, I have to get the HW Heater in first (job 1). Shark-bite makes an adaptor spec for PB but I am concerned the moment I start messing with it I am going to run into issues.

Any advice? Thanks!

 

[pinebarkauto]

I have it in my shop/apartment built in the early 90s. I have never had a problem with the pipe, however the copper tees, elbows, and connectors my plumber used instead of the failure prone poly fittings have begun to fail due to my very hard well water. Not a problem to work with. Must use "adaptor fittings" when connecting to current Pex pipe. I had to use them everywhere I replaced a fitting. Fittings at hot water heater were the first to go.

 

[DGersic]

I’d plan to replace the whole thing with PEX. Maybe you’ll get lucky and it won’t need to be done immediately, but if you’re ready to do it you won’t be caught surprised.

I haven’t worked with it, but a fine tooth hacksaw blade should cut it with minimal risk of having anything crazy happen. I wouldn’t use any sort of bladed cutter on it, especially if it’s prone to cracking.

 

[fourjeepin]

I had that garbage in my basement when I bought the place 12 years ago. The PB fittings are the weakest point but my place had the brass fittings so it was holding. I used a couple of the shark bites to couple PB to PEX while I replaced it all.

For cutting, I would use a utility knife for ends I needed to keep. A PEX cutter crushes the pipe before it bites and cuts. This shows you how thin and weak that stuff is.

 

[Jim greengo]

If it's the same plastic water lines I've seen in a few trailers it's a water line version of sdr 35 pipe.
I had a tough time finding fittings to transition it to copper,it seems like I ended up getting some kind of bushings to glue inside the end of the pipe to make it stiff enough for sharkbites or something like that.
I'd run like hell if I ever saw it again! Hahaha

 

[Bucko]

The stuff is pretty much garbage and if he had a home inspection it should of been called out. Also alot of insurance companies will not insure you if you have it.
As said above, the biggest issue is in the connections. Once you disturb it you can open up a can of worms and water leaks can do major damage in a very short time. I would plan for a re-pipe of the home sooner rather than later.

 

[mepstein]

When I was a realtor, it was a nightmare. Leaked if you looked at it wrong. Insurance companies often wouldn’t insure until it was removed.

 

[cruisecontrol49]

Hi all,

Done way more than my share of plumbing over the years, but just encountered a new one to me. Prep'ing to help my future son-in-law replace his leaking water heater and he told me it had grey pipe - looked like old-school pex...? Had him take some pictures and get me the info off it which was Vanguard plastics thermoguard ASTM D-3309. Quick google search and learned all about polybutylene fiasco. Short version - need to get it gone ASAP.

Here's the question - Has anyone worked with it before and how brittle is it? Also, how do you cut it? No idea how old but last used in the early to mid 90's. House is 50's era so prob put in 70-80s. Way past borrowed time from what I read

BUT, I have to get the HW Heater in first (job 1). Shark-bite makes an adaptor spec for PB but I am concerned the moment I start messing with it I am going to run into issues.

Any advice? Thanks!

I have been living with it in a late 80's mobile home for 25 years. I researched it and it seems to cause a lot of problems if you have chlorine in your water. I think the chlorine makes it brittle and it gets compromised. I have well water and have not had any problems with it.

You can get PB to Pex transition fittings at Lowe's and probably Home Depot. I recently replaced a hot water heater and I cut the PB off at the floor and transitioned over to Pex, no problems so far.

 

[BrandonV]

Also, how do you cut it?

At this point you remove it. Major liability.

 

[Jackfre]

If it has lasted this long I think you can expect that every time you touch it you will not be happy. I installed a lot of this in radiant systems in the 70’s. The PB fittings failed not right away but when you thought it was all ok. Then, “Hey, Jack, got a leak.” Replaced with the brass fitting and ok. I would get brushed u on pex and replace every inch of it.

 

[finn]

We bought a house near Tucson a few years ago. Anything with the stuff was prominently flagged. Many of the home listings touted the pact that it had been replaced with pex.

At the time, the consensus was that it was a $7000-$20000 job, depending on the style and size of the house, to replumb with pex. There were numerous firms that specialized in that one job.

On the other hand, one house we looked at had polybutylene pipes, but the only issue had been erosion / corrosion of copper tees and elbows.

 

[bbxlr8]

Many thanks everyone - know it has to come out and futile point looking back now (he has not that much experience w/ DIY but learns quickly). Was my first WTH moment to ask about the inspection etc. also. They are bucks down saving for their life and a move. Still hope to do a 2 phase w/ the WH this week. Will let you know how it goes!

Had him send me a video in the meantime tracing It (he is an hour away) and all looks to be accessible in the basement - the runs up into house were switched over to copper & PVC. Small win

 

[rayra]

Hi all,

Done way more than my share of plumbing over the years, but just encountered a new one to me. Prep'ing to help my future son-in-law replace his leaking water heater and he told me it had grey pipe - looked like old-school pex...? Had him take some pictures and get me the info off it which was Vanguard plastics thermoguard ASTM D-3309. Quick google search and learned all about polybutylene fiasco. Short version - need to get it gone ASAP.

Here's the question - Has anyone worked with it before and how brittle is it? Also, how do you cut it? No idea how old but last used in the early to mid 90's. House is 50's era so prob put in 70-80s. Way past borrowed time from what I read

BUT, I have to get the HW Heater in first (job 1). Shark-bite makes an adaptor spec for PB but I am concerned the moment I start messing with it I am going to run into issues.

Any advice? Thanks!

I have this garbage in my house. You've seen the same info I have. It is basically PEX's father.
I need to replumb my entire house. Worse, I have this garbage polybutylene pipe in my slab, supplying my kitchen sink island. And perversely, a tapped 1/4" line in the same junk going from that sink supply BACK under the slag to the fridge water connection.
I'm going to have to tear up a travertine floor that I installed, to replace these runs.

I suffered a leak in my main running across my garage ceiling to the distribution block in my laundry room wall. A prior owner had hacked an access hole in the garage ceiling and utilized that attic for storage. THey'd thrown old plywood sections down as flooring and pinched the main between the plywood load and a ceiling joist.
Part of my early work was taking down that junk and preparing to install some pull-down stairs. I found that now D-shaped piece of pipe but no leak and slightly moved the free run of pipe further from the opening.

A couple months later I step out into the garage into a puddle. That crushed pipe had uncrushed and THEN sprung a leak.

At the time I purchased the house I was told 'PEX'. Saw the distribution block and the ugly terminations under the sinks, shrugged and moved on to other things, lots wrong with the house that needed attention.

So I got PEX pipe and tried to use the PEX crimp tools I already had, connections for the spliced in section leaked. That's when I learned it wasn't PEX and learned about gray polybutylene (and how screwed I was). And that its inner diameters don't match PEX. And I learned that Sharkbite made adapter fittings, gray on one end copper colored on the other. They worked great.
I bought a couple more sets in two sizes for future leaks.

Don't yank, bind, fold spindle or mutilate gray polybutylene. Do Not Taunt Happy Butylene.


It cuts readily with a knife. Use more rotation than crushing shear action so as to not crimp the pipe section you are retaining. You can readily re-terminate it with modern PEX and the Sharkbite adapters.
PLAN FOR YOUR FUTURE ENTIRE HOUSE RE-PIPE WITH PEX. It is WHEN, not if. Do it at a time of your own choosing, before a major failure.
I have a terrible amount of disruptive work ahead of me. Maybe next year, or the year after. Butylene Willing.

 

[rayra]

Here's a fresh example, I'm currently operating in 'the Danger Zone'. Both bath sinks were cracked, my drain plumbing stinks throughout the house, so this is Plumbing Week. Replacing sinks, p-traps, all the undercabinet drain piping parts I can, replacing a busted master faucet. Replacing the kitchen faucet.
Working on the master today, good thing the sink was already cracked in half as I would have had to smash it anyway. THe vanity maker or installer had BONDED the undermount sink to the stone countertop. Typically you loosen the clamps and run a carpet knife blade thru the caulking at the top and the sink comes free. NOPE. So tried knives, razor saw, and ultimately tapping a 2" blade scraper to pry the sink from the counter, sweating that I might break the stone counter lip. And in the process creating a lot of razor-edge shattered sink pieces.

Anyway, I digress. My point was here's some of that butylene and you can see my problems are even worse - NONE of it is properly terminated with valving at the walls / cabinet bulkheads. It's all looping direct runs to the fixtures. This includes running free behind my toilets. It will be a major project to re-pipe this house with PEX - and do it all properly.
The plumbing is all a star topology to a distribution manifold set inside the wall of the laundry room. I can access the manifold and shut off individual lines if needed, which was probably the builder's justification for NOT putting in an proper stop valves under any of the sinks. It stead of a valve at the wall, I've got loops of this now-fragile pipe running free under my sinks and behind my toilets. I don't even want to think about the back to back showers.
The only upside there is a future project was gutting the hall bath down to the studs for a complete remodel. And THAT will be when the shower piping gets replaced. Right now my fuzzy plan is an entire new distribution block, the next wall bay over in the laundry room and a whole new parallel main from the service provision in the front corner of the garage. And then I can re-plumb various things as I go. I'm living in the house, can't tear it all apart for weeks. Adding a new system in parallel will let me move all the easy stuff gradually and independent of the crush of work of the bathroom remodel. And if any of the butylene fails I'm not crippled entirely.
If it was a house flip or unoccupied, I'd just tear it all up and replace it entirely in one go.

 

[Dave Carney]

I didn't want it but I've had it for 29 years and have had no issues at all. However, I'm on well water (so no chlorine issues) and I have the last generation of fittings that were used right before they pulled it off the U.S. market.

I needed to move a line on the Manabloc once and had to cut the pipe to add in a piece of pex for length. It looked like new on the inside. Used sharkbite PB to pex transition fittings, no problems.

I'll repipe if necessary but at my age, I'm hoping to just die here before that's required. I'll risk it, I'm here 24/7.