Experience with Riv-Nuts

[Dolfan]

I've never used these but I think it would help me with an issue on my track car. I have a part that was sheet metal screwed into the floor sheet metal and now the screw won't bite as the hole is too large.

I found the Riv-Nuts and it looks like a good solution, the question I have is how much room do I need on the opposite side from the install for the Riv-Nut and tool to work? If I have to remove pieces under the car to make room that defeats the purpose a bit.

If anyone has experience with these please school me.

Thanks.

 

[Travis E.]

The size bolt will play part in the depth of the nut. How much room do you think you have and what size bolt do you need? I have a bunch of sizes i can meaure for you.

 

[e-tek]

The nut is faily shallow. I would think if it was held by a sheet screw to start with, even the smallest Riv-nut would provide 200X the hold. A 1/8" thread size screw uses like a 1/4 or at most 3/8" nut once compressed.

 

[jjjrmx5]

The nut is faily shallow. I would think if it was held by a sheet screw to start with, even the smallest Riv-nut would provide 200X the hold. A 1/8" thread size screw uses like a 1/4 or at most 3/8" nut once compressed.

I agree.

I use AVK tools and have both the hand and pneumatic gun riv-nut installers.

I go from M5 all the way up to M10 and can't see how i ever lived with the tools.

Not a cheap solution, but certainly very professional & very high quality.

Hand units:
http://www.avkfasteners.com/tools.php
http://www.bylerrivet.com/products/item-details.aspx?pid=1595

Pneumatic pistol:
http://www.avkfasteners.com/tools.pneumatic.php

 

[Bronson]

The Riv-nut tool We use in Aviation is about a foot long, and opens in a scissor type motion. Easy to use, and strong.

 

[MP&C]

For sheet metal you'll want to use the AVK one's Ed is showing above, with the splines on the side. They have less chance of spinning after they're set like the smooth sided ones always do. McMaster Carr carries them as well as the insertion tools..

 

[Dolfan]

The situation is that the holes are in the driver area floor sheet metal, below this area I think it is some heat shielding and other areas just below the floor pan. So in these two holes that looks to be about 1/4" diameter, one looks to have about 1/2" of depth but the other seems to have only about 3/16" of depth, so that is why I wonder if these riv-nuts will work as a portion needs to go through the material then be compressed.

The bolt size doesn't need to be large, currently a #14 sheet metal screw was being used, so a M5 or M6 is more than fine. There is not a lot of pressure on this part, it is a diamond plate floor pan, mostly just needs to be help in place firmly.

 

[geologist]

Those almost remind me of door bushings.

 

[jteck75]

Word of advice,make sure you drill the hole for the riv nut super straight or the splines won't hook very well. Don't ask me how I know!

 

[theoldwizard1]

DUZ (1/4 turn) fasteners ?

 

[RodneyPierce]

On riv-nuts, you have to make sure you use the correct size drill bit for the nut. Or they wont hold like they are supposed to. like for instance, a 1/4-20 riv nut require a 25/64 hole. Other then that, they dont take a whole lot of space, and they are honestly very strong. We use them all the time here at the sign shop I work for.

 

[ClickClickBoom]

If you have a Harbor Freight close they sell a rivnut gun with some rivets for like $12. Might be worth it to pick it up and experiment.

It's one of those tools you didn't know you needed until you get one.

 

[Steevo]

I have a Nutsert kit that I have used for more than 30 years, and they have always held well and been easy to install. They go in from the "front" of the workpiece, that is, from the same side you plan to be screwing the bolt/machine screw in from, and they expand against the "back" of the metal as they flatten out a thin flange against the front.
They end up only as deep as a nut of the typical size associated with the size fastener you are using.
Mine looks like this:

It can do up to 5/16" inserts.

 

[kruegdr]

Steevo, that's a nice lookin' kit. Who makes that, and is it still in production?

 

[Bill Bowman]

Steevo, that's a nice lookin' kit. Who makes that, and is it still in production?

I have the same tool as Steevo, and mine is Snap-On. Bill

 

[Steevo]

I am sure I got mine through one of the big fastener companies that stocks bins in a shop.
I can't remember the name, but can look when I get home today to see if the name is on the box anywhere.

 

[Bill Bowman]

Just looked at mine, it's Blue Point HP400. Not sure if they still have that particular tool anymore. Bill

 

[gt40mkii]

If this is a one-time thing, I don't seen how tooling up for Riv-Nuts or anything similar would be all that cost effective.

DZus fasteners are a bit of a pain to install and will leak when you're running in the rain. I dunno if that's a concern or not.

My race car has a similar issue -- the battery is held to the floorpan using 6 bolts. Under the car, I've spot-welded the 6 nuts to the underside of the floorpan. Simple, cheap, and effective, unless you don't have access to a welder.

 

[Alchymist]

Used the HF one numerous times with good results...YMMV...

Most of mine were 1/4 -20. Seem quite strong in 1/16 " sheet metal.

 

[jjjrmx5]

If this is a one-time thing, I don't seen how tooling up for Riv-Nuts or anything similar would be all that cost effective.

They arren't, which is why you seldom hear any chat about them as usually only fabrictors or mfgrs use them, and usually not regularly.

When I was involved in custom vehicle fab, I uses them often but not regualry, with meant paying $200 to $600 for the tool + nutserts + various sized heads for each size nutsert meant a lot of money was laid out for a little used tool.

IIRC, there are a few producres for the tool like steevo has, as well as rivnut now has the little handheld inexpensive slide installer and even pegasus racing has a tiny installer tools usedd by a lot of weekend racers.

As for the big boy tools, they are awesome to have around, but not cheap by any means.

But---when you need them, you need them.

 

[MoonRise]

Ummm, if your current #14 sheetmetal screws are stripped out, just use the slightly larger #12 screws instead?

Or can you slip in some 'speed nuts', such as these?

http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce...-_-BodyLink-_-Speed+Nuts+&+Installation+Tools

Or even at/from someplace like Lowes?

http://www.lowes.com and search for "speed nuts"

Or use something like pop-rivets to hold the panel in place?

More than one way to attach things together.

 

[Elroy]

Ummm, if your current #14 sheetmetal screws are stripped out, just use the slightly larger #12 screws instead?

Nice try but you have that backwards

A #14 is larger than a #12

Back to the issue at hand. If you're worried about spinning the riv-nut, these are the inserts Elroy would recommend:

The only problem is finding the drill bits that produce a hex hole

And as far as the setting tool is concerned, you'll find a pneumatic setter such as this Sioux example to be fully capable of setting inserts up to 3/8" - 16.

Tooling noses are quickly and easily changed

These tools are only about a $1,000 when fully equipped. Also note there are other production qualified tools available that cost several times this amount.

Do they work well? You bet they do.

 

[gloveman132]

Steevo, that's a nice lookin' kit. Who makes that, and is it still in production?

They still make it and it is available from McMaster-Carr

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/117/3271/=fr3wiu

 

[Steevo]

My kit originally came from Fullwell Motor Products, and most of my refill inserts say "Mechanics Choice" on the box labels.

Both were USA made companies and no doubt both companies are now long gone . . .

I bought this kit in about 1979-1980

 

[MoonRise]

Ummm, if your current #14 sheetmetal screws are stripped out, just use the slightly larger #12 screws instead?

Nice try but you have that backwards

A #14 is larger than a #12

Yup, brain-fart there.

But hopefully he gets the idea that there is "more than one way to attach things".

 

[theoldwizard1]

Anyone ever use one of these ?

Same page in McMaster-Carr catalog as the other one. About $30 per size. #6 - 3/8 also metric.

 

[t100]

on indy cars, the use lots nut plates secured with solid rivets.

 

[240sxguy]

T100, Never seen those before. Pretty neat.

 

[Travis E.]

Anyone ever use one of these ?

Same page in McMaster-Carr catalog as the other one. About $30 per size. #6 - 3/8 also metric.

Yes, they are the same idea as the one with the handle but you have to use 2 wrenches.

 

[gt40mkii]

T100, Never seen those before. Pretty neat.

Very common in military applications, too.

There's a lot of cross-pollination between aerospace and top-end racing. LOTS of interesting stuff can be found cruising through the Aircraft Spruce catalog.

 

[t100]

yeah, they are. they work extremely well on thin material such as aluminum and carbon fiber panels, as long as you know how to buck rivets. fairly cheap, too.

 

[NASTYZEN]

on indy cars, the use lots nut plates secured with solid rivets.

Rivnuts may be good , but I've never liked them. A good way to dnf a car.....
Rivet plates are great and are tempered. They can take a beating too. They can be used over and over. You will shear the bolt before breaking a nut plate.Easy to instal with common tools
Those dam rivnuts are for single use on a car IMHO. Might as well use a rivet...

 

[JMcFly]

I hate those things. My delorean has them all over the place to bolt parts to the fiberglass body tub. If they cross threaded or corroded to the bolt they just spun in place.

 

[lotsoftools]

You could also go with a u-nut: http://www.tooltopia.com/auveco-835...se&utm_term=AUV8359&utm_campaign=shopping_r1&

 

[lzenglish]

In my opinion, the original blind riv-nuts are one of the greatest inventions since twist top beer bottles! BUT, there are allot of look-a-likes on the market, that are not worth a ****, IMO. It has been a while, so I had to dig deep in my tool box, but I found a 1/4-20 setting tool, and a couple of riv-nuts (pictued below). The largest size I ever used was 1/2" stainless steel, and it took everything I had to set them, which takes an allen wrench, and open end wrench. But, once they are set, they are not going anywhere, unlike some of the one's I have tried on the market today. I have, 1/4", 5/16", 3/8",and 1/2", setting tools that have "SCOVILL made in USA" on them. The last job I did was setting some 3/8 inch countersunk riv-nuts on my 74 ford bronco bed, to eliminate the need for the 2 wrench dance, when ever I installed, or removed the top.
http://www.compcoinc.com/wp-content/uploads/RIVNUT-CATALOG-2010.pdf

Wayne

 

[jweller]

Anyone ever use one of these ?

Same page in McMaster-Carr catalog as the other one. About $30 per size. #6 - 3/8 also metric.

Yup. Set them in some lightweight sheet metal for something I had to assemble stateside, disassemble, ship to Indonesia, and rebuild. I would have used a self tapper if I didn't have to disassemble and reassemble. It worked well, but it is not a high volume production solution. They work well, but each one takes maybe 5 minute to do. I never did it, but we had one guy that stripped the bolt out of them. I'm pretty sure that was a single case of caveman-itis. cheap insurance to buy a couple extra bolts to go with it when you order one though. I didn't use them in anything with high stress either, but they seemed to hold pretty well for what they are. McMaster seems to list them with some fairly impressive holding forces.

 

[e-tek]

Wow - 2 pages on the pro's and con's of riv-nuts......

 

[coldfusion21]

Very common in military applications, too.

There's a lot of cross-pollination between aerospace and top-end racing. LOTS of interesting stuff can be found cruising through the Aircraft Spruce catalog.

I set a ton of those in cast Ti/cast alu parts for some mil planes. Riveting the plate is easy. Using three types of sealant and making sure there's no swirls to catch fuel, that sucked!

 

[Provincial]

#1: If you don't have enough room on the back side for a riv-nut or regular nut plate, tinnerman makes a stamped nut plate for sheet metal screws. It rivets on like the regular nut plate, but is a one-piece stamped unit that is only about 5/32" thick.

#2: Riv-nuts were developed by Goodyear to hold rubber de-icing boots onto the leading edge of airplane wings. Many airplanes didn't have boots installed at the factory, so Goodyear needed a way to hold the screws without accessing the back side of the sheet aluminum panel. Many aircraft Riv-nuts have a key under the head to help keep them from spinning. A special tool was inserted in the drilled hole and "nibbled" the keyway when you squeezed the handle. I have one of these tools that I picked up 40 years ago. The keyed Riv-nuts never spin. It came off an ****** carrier that was scrapped in Portland, OR.

I picked up a Goodyear Riv-nut installation tool in #10-32 at a local antique car swap meet last year. It cost $10.00. The Goodyear ones are neat since they work like a Yankee screwdriver. You pull the knob at the end of the handle all the way out, put the Riv-nut on the end of the arbor and push the knob back in to screw the nut on. Stick the Riv-nut in the hole, squeeze the side handle to set it, then pull the knob out to unscrew the arbor. Really quick!

The aircraft Riv-nuts seem more substantial than the commercial ones.

#3: NAPA sells a kit that uses a pop-rivet style setting tool. These work well.

 

[lilredex]

Rivnuts can be installed without a special setting tool, such as one like this, if you are economy minded:

http://www.fjr1300.info/howto/rivnut-tool.html

If you are using the round barrel type, it helps to notch the flange as suggested here in post #3:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=30778&highlight=rivnuts