Exterior LVL

[FreshWahoo]

Hi All,
We are in the middle of a Garage/Guest House Build. The Contractor just installed LVL's to support the upstairs porch.. I'm not very familiar with them, but they sure look like just an engineered plywood.. When I look at the Engineered Plans, the spec is: "(2) 1 3/4" x 16" LVL Beam (2.0E-2900F).

I found the Technical Manual on-line and in "Important Notes" it states...

1. LP SolidStart LVL shall be designed for dry-use conditions only. Dry-use
applies to products installed in dry, covered and well ventilated interior
conditions in which the equivalent moisture content in lumber will not
exceed 16%.

As this is an exterior porch, I'm concerned that in a few years these are going to rot out requiring an expensive repair, or worse fail and cause injury... also, we are on salt water and they didn't even use galvanized nails...

I've asked the Contractor and he said he just planned to paint them..
I've shot an email (and called) the engineer with out response..

I'm not apposed to flashing the ends and wrapping with peal and stick then stucco if the manufacturer signs off on it. Or maybe even just flash them in such a way to divert water and let them breath?

Shouldn't the engineer have some liability? Shouldn't the contractor have questioned this and used weather resistant materials?

I'll write customer support for the product, but what advice can the forum come up with- especially concerning the contractor and engineer?

Thanks for your input!!!
-John

 

[reader2580]

Personally, I would insist they replace the LVLs with proper LVLs rated for outdoor use.

 

[mike93lx]

I wouldn't accept that as an option unless the beam manufacturer approves it.

and yes, an LVL looks just like plywood
LSL/OSL looks like OSB
Glulam looks like a stack of dimensional lumber

 

[DGersic]

“Paint” is not equivalent to “dry, covered, well ventilated”. So, yes, you should be concerned.

My experience with salt air is that it attacks pretty much everything. So taking every reasonable precaution in the build is a good idea.



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[FreshWahoo]

Personally, I would insist they replace the LVLs with proper LVLs rated for outdoor use.

So if the engineer spec'd a product that is inappropriate for it's use, and the builder follows the plans.. who pays for the redo? The Owner?

 

[tarmy]

Those will absolutely fail...ask me how I know...

They act like a wick...and soak up water and tranfer it, in my case, into the structure which caused even more problems...all within a couple of years...and paint will NOT fix that issue.

Replace it with rated material...or you will hate life later...not to mention someone may get hurt if you get a failure under load...

 

[FreshWahoo]

Those will absolutely fail...ask me how I know...

They act like a wick...and soak up water and tranfer it, in my case, into the structure which caused even more problems...all within a couple of years...and paint will NOT fix that issue.

Replace it with rated material...or you will hate life later...not to mention someone may get hurt if you get a failure under load...

Yup... sounds like we have a problem... the contractor has a good reputation, so hopefully he comes up to the plate!! I wonder if the Engineer's errors and omissions policy will help... what does one do if nobody accepts responsibility? That is going to be a lot of labor! It has not been decked yet, but it is three laminated beams, which already have the joists installed...

 

[tarmy]

Yup... sounds like we have a problem... the contractor has a good reputation, so hopefully he comes up to the plate!! I wonder if the Engineer's errors and omissions policy will help... what does one do if nobody accepts responsibility? That is going to be a lot of labor! It has not been decked yet, but it is three laminated beams, which already have the joists installed...

Fix it and sort out who pays later...it is your place...

Tell the engineer you plan on having him compensate you for the error. His E & O (errors and omissions) insurance will be forced to be notified...then go from there.

Good luck...

 

[ishiboo]

I believe there are PT LVLs. But there are definitely PT glulams.

 

[bczygan]

Read this:

http://www.nishkian.com/understanding-engineered-wood-beam-options/

Bill

 

[FreshWahoo]

Interesting, but we know that the engineer specified a LVL that is not suitable for where it is installed... the question is how do we proceed? Neither the builder or the engineer have answered my emails of Thursday.. it's a long weekend, so I'm considering my options!!! I've written the manufacturer AND asked the builder to confirm what was actually installed. My Guess is they give the plans to a lumber yard who bids a package of materials for the project.. unlikely they caught the engineers mistake... hopefully somebody will come up to the plate!!!

 

[RocketScott]

Does the plan show the LVL wrapped with anything?

What kind of deck is going over it?

Seems like a big oversight. As a framer I would have questioned it.

 

[FreshWahoo]

Personally, I would insist they replace the LVLs with proper LVLs rated for outdoor use.

No, nothing I can see on the plans.. contractor said he was just going to paint it.. not to mention it’s just strapped down to the column with steel nails.. I had thought it was going to be stucco’d- but I’m not sure that wouldn’t be worse!
The deck is either PT Deck Boards or Trex according to the plans.. we contracted Trex, but are looking for other products.. I’m starting to think one option might be sheathing the deck in PT Plywood and adding some kind of membrane.. but I want the ENGINEER AND Contractor to come up with options...


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[reader2580]

So if the engineer spec'd a product that is inappropriate for it's use, and the builder follows the plans.. who pays for the redo? The Owner?

If the contractor paid for the engineer then the contractor should take care of it and the contractor can argue with the engineer over it.

 

[Higgins]

If the contractor paid for the engineer then the contractor should take care of it and the contractor can argue with the engineer over it.

Personally, I would tell the contractor to stop work until this issue is resolved!

Otherwise he finishes the project and moves onto his next customer / project. Never to return again. Then it's up to you to prove who was at fault. Contractor, Architect, Engineer, Building and Zoning Dept. Etc....

 

[FreshWahoo]

If the contractor paid for the engineer then the contractor should take care of it and the contractor can argue with the engineer over it.

I paid for the drawings, so that complicates it a bit.. But I'm sure no one wants to be liable if it were to rot to the point the nails holding the joists fall out and someone were to get hurt...


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[FreshWahoo]

Personally, I would tell the contractor to stop work until this issue is resolved!



Otherwise he finishes the project and moves onto his next customer / project. Never to return again. Then it's up to you to prove who was at fault. Contractor, Architect, Engineer, Building and Zoning Dept. Etc....

For sure! I've emailed the engineer and the contractor- no response yet (but it's Labor Day weekend) Tuesday I'll call the manufacturer of the LVL's, the the contractor..

Would anyone advise me to talk to the building department, or would that be putting gas on the fire...


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[RocketScott]

Don't involve the government in your life any more than you have to.

It sounds like you produced the plan and gave it to the builder to build. He built it per plan and now there is an issue. Who actually drew the plan before engineering?

I see problems like this crop up frequently (but I try to catch it before it becomes a bigger issue). An architect/home designer draws something, calling out pressure treated lumber. Then the plan goes to the engineer who does all the calcs and determines dimensional lumber won't work so he calls out an LVL. After that the plan should go back to the designer to rectify conflicts like this. That costs money so the plan usually just gets submitted for permits and it's left to the guys in the field to work it out. As a framer I usually get handed a set of S pages (structural) and A pages (architectural). They don't always agree with each other. Sometimes it's combined into one set but that's rare, at least for the type of houses that I frame.

As I said before I would have questioned it as a framer but ultimately it's above my pay grade to make changes on my own. I can't just swap out a beam without the engineer approving it.

Are you providing the lumber or is the builder? Who did the lumber take off?

 

[6768rogues]

If the drawing calls for what is built, the builder is not at fault the designer is. That is why architects and engineers carry errors and omissions insurance.
If the drawing calls for something weather resistant and the builder built it wrong, he is to blame.
It has to be right or it will fail. If you get no response from the design professional or builder, I would point it out to the building inspector. He can stop the job and you do not want it to proceed without being made right anyway. And if he is doing his job, he has to ensure that it is built to the approved plans, which, if those plans are wrong, they screwed up and approved.

 

[scottydosnntkno]

What is this lvl being used as?

Our new house has ‘standard’ lvls used to support the roof joists of the covered deck and porch. The deck has 42” overhangs and the porch has 24”. Both are wrapped in smartside plywood, caulked and painted. The only time either of them may see moisture is when we pressure wash the exterior every other year, and only then what leaks through the caulk somehow. I Doubt in my lifetime there will be an issue with either

Is it a lvl being used to support and exposed deck joists, so it gets soaked every time it rains? Or is it a covered joist that’s protcted from direct water? Give the architect/builder a couple days to respond, it is a holiday weekend after all

 

[FreshWahoo]

Don't involve the government in your life any more than you have to.

It sounds like you produced the plan and gave it to the builder to build. He built it per plan and now there is an issue. Who actually drew the plan before engineering?

I see problems like this crop up frequently (but I try to catch it before it becomes a bigger issue). An architect/home designer draws something, calling out pressure treated lumber. Then the plan goes to the engineer who does all the calcs and determines dimensional lumber won't work so he calls out an LVL. After that the plan should go back to the designer to rectify conflicts like this. That costs money so the plan usually just gets submitted for permits and it's left to the guys in the field to work it out. As a framer I usually get handed a set of S pages (structural) and A pages (architectural). They don't always agree with each other. Sometimes it's combined into one set but that's rare, at least for the type of houses that I frame.

As I said before I would have questioned it as a framer but ultimately it's above my pay grade to make changes on my own. I can't just swap out a beam without the engineer approving it.

Are you providing the lumber or is the builder? Who did the lumber take off?

No - telling the building department would be a bad move, at least until, the Roof gets sealed up!

I commissioned the engineer. The Drawing was done by a draftsman in the engineers office, (it's basically just a box) then I put the building out to bid.. it should have been caught by the contractor, I would think, but they just followed the prints. I imagine the lumber is provided by a yard who puts together a package based on the drawing..
ultimately the fault lies with the engineer-

Tomorrow will be an interesting day!


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[FreshWahoo]

If the drawing calls for what is built, the builder is not at fault the designer is. That is why architects and engineers carry errors and omissions insurance.
If the drawing calls for something weather resistant and the builder built it wrong, he is to blame.
It has to be right or it will fail. If you get no response from the design professional or builder, I would point it out to the building inspector. He can stop the job and you do not want it to proceed without being made right anyway. And if he is doing his job, he has to ensure that it is built to the approved plans, which, if those plans are wrong, they screwed up and approved.

Can't leave it - we will see who pays for it! As I said in the previous post... Tomorrow will be an interesting day!


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[Trey T]

I will not be surprised if they plow thru the build. If the beams are covered like a roof and properly ventilated, then I wouldn't worry about moisture or rot issue. Therefore, consider the porch flooring a critical part of the overall construction. If that porch floor leaks, you're screwed.