Extra Conductor in Conduit

[LifeLongWNYer]

Hi to all. Was a frequent reader, but dropped off while I built my pole barn, now I'm back with questions.

I have a 100 amp panel in the building and have run conduit to two locations in which I am planning to put receptacles for a welder, which I don't yet own. Would "like" to run wire for short term use of a 110 VAC welder, with the possibility of converting it to handle IF I ever decide to get a larger one. Sooo... may I pull two stranded THHN conductors, a hot and a neutral, for the current 110 use, then, if/when I want to convert to 220, change the neutral to the other hot?

IF SO, should I pull in a black, or red, conductor for the neutral but wrap it with white tape at both ends, to satisfy my current usage, or should I pull in a white conductor for now, then if/when I convert to 220, tape it red?

( I understand that a ground wire is also needed. )

JBP
Rochester, NY

 

[mike93lx]

An extra wire isn't needed. You need two conductors for 120v (hot and neutral) and two conductors for 240v (both hot). The only times you would need a third is if you ran equipment that needed a neutral (dryer, stove), wanted a subpanel with 120v and 240v or was running a mwbc

If this was my shop, I would run a black and white and just reidentify the white.

 

[pattenp]

THHN in conduit that is #6 and smaller is not to be re-identified. You need to use the proper colors. If running Nm-b you can re-identify white as black or red. In my opinion it's best to pull a green ground.

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

Okay, this is just a welder receptacle on the opposite side of the building ( 40' away, plus the up's and down's ) from my panel box. Was hoping to run wire that I can use NOW for 110, then also use it later for 220 IF I decide to get a larger welder.

The way I operate, I guess I'll run the wire ( colors ) for the 110 welder. The odds that I'll live long enough to be able to afford that 220 welder are slim. It has taken me 4 years just to get this far.


Thanks for the advice,

JBP

.

 

[sparky 1971]

Okay, this is just a welder receptacle on the opposite side of the building ( 40' away, plus the up's and down's ) from my panel box. Was hoping to run wire that I can use NOW for 110, then also use it later for 220 IF I decide to get a larger welder.

The way I operate, I guess I'll run the wire ( colors ) for the 110 welder. The odds that I'll live long enough to be able to afford that 220 welder are slim. It has taken me 4 years just to get this far.


Thanks for the advice,

JBP

.

If you really want to do it by the book, take two hot colors and a neutral. Easiest would be black, red, and white. Use the black and white for the 120, then if and when you get the welder, abandon the white and use the black and red for the 240. While not in use, label the red wire in the panel so you remember or the next guy knows what it's for. I know what I would do, it resembles a lot like the suggestion in post #2.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

An extra wire isn't needed. You need two conductors for 120v (hot and neutral) and two conductors for 240v (both hot). The only times you would need a third is if you ran equipment that needed a neutral (dryer, stove), wanted a subpanel with 120v and 240v or was running a mwbc

If this was my shop, I would run a black and white and just reidentify the white.

this is technically a code violation, unless #4 or larger but..... it wont cause a safety issue if violated so....

 

[kaffine]

You could pull in 2 hots, a neutral and a ground. This way if you upgrade later the wire you need is already in place. Just cap the wire you are not using at both ends. This assumes the conduit is large enough for an extra wire.

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

"You could pull in 2 hots, a neutral and a ground. This way if you upgrade later the wire you need is already in place. Just cap the wire you are not using at both ends. This assumes the conduit is large enough for an extra wire."

The conduit is, but i'd rather not buy unneeded copper. This morning I paid $ 167.00 ( with tax added after that ) for 500' of # 10 THHN. I need # 8 too, but Home Depot won't have it in until tomorrow. Can't wait to see how much.



JBP

.

 

[Dig Doug]

How many amps is the 220 going to be Down the road?

might be better to have a dedicated 20 amp outlet and another 40 or 50 amp for the big welder ( thicker wire )

 

[mike93lx]

How many amps is the 220 going to be Down the road?

might be better to have a dedicated 20 amp outlet and another 40 or 50 amp for the big welder ( thicker wire )

Welder circuits allow you to downsize the wire based on duty cycle. #12 with a 50a breaker covers most of the welders people use at home. But that means the circuit is only usable for a welder.

 

[dave*99]

"You could pull in 2 hots, a neutral and a ground. This way if you upgrade later the wire you need is already in place. Just cap the wire you are not using at both ends. This assumes the conduit is large enough for an extra wire."

The conduit is, but i'd rather not buy unneeded copper. This morning I paid $ 167.00 ( with tax added after that ) for 500' of # 10 THHN. I need # 8 too, but Home Depot won't have it in until tomorrow. Can't wait to see how much.



JBP

.

FWIW (in this case about 10 bucks) 40' of 12 ga THWN is about 10 bucks.

Here is alternate idea...
Run Red, Black, White and Green. Get a handle tied pair of breakers or 2 pole breaker (that will start a long chain of comments about common trip not being needed on a MWBC etc.)
Set up a MWBC. Put 2 duplex GFCI receptacles at the welder area in a 2 gang box. Or use a 2 pole GFCI breaker - but they are expensive.

Convert that to a 240 circuit (although it already is a 240 circuit) if you get a bigger welder.

 

[American Locomotive]

It's your building, and no one knows what color the wires are once the covers are on.

Run a black, red, and a green, and hook it up to 120v anyways. That's inherently safer than having a white wire in there. Any electrician worth their salt would verify voltages and connections before messing with it, and wouldn't just "trust" the colors.

Someone mentioned using 12 gauge wire. While you can technically do that, my experience is that many welders - especially 120v welders do not like the voltage drop. I would run 10 gauge at the minimum.

 

[dave*99]

It's your building, and no one knows what color the wires are once the covers are on.

Run a black, red, and a green, and hook it up to 120v anyways. That's inherently safer than having a white wire in there. Any electrician worth their salt would verify voltages and connections before messing with it, and wouldn't just "trust" the colors.

Someone mentioned using 12 gauge wire. While you can technically do that, my experience is that many welders - especially 120v welders do not like the voltage drop. I would run 10 gauge at the minimum.

Why is that safer?
Wouldn't that same salty electrician look at a red or black wire tied to the neutral bus in the panel and say WTF?
And if he saw a white wire on a 2 pole breaker, wouldn't he say I know what is going on there.

 

[American Locomotive]

I'm thinking at the outlet side of things, it would be "safer" since it would inherently be more safe to assume both wires are hot

 

[mike93lx]

I'm thinking at the outlet side of things, it would be "safer" since it would inherently be more safe to assume both wires are hot

Anyone assuming what is on the outlet end without testing shouldn't be in there.

I would never want a red landed on my neutral bar, but a white carrying current isn't abnormal.

 

[American Locomotive]

There's no perfect solution either way besides running additional wires that OP doesn't want to.

I still subscribe to the "it's your building, do what you want" camp. Way worse electrical things are done every day than a wire being the wrong color.

 

[mike93lx]

I still subscribe to the "it's your building, do what you want" camp. Way worse electrical things are done every day than a wire being the wrong color

QFT

 

[TRWham]

Anyone assuming what is on the outlet end without testing shouldn't be in there.

I would never want a red landed on my neutral bar, but a white carrying current isn't abnormal.

Not only is it not abnormal, it's the only way the thing can work if there's a load on the circuit.

 

[mike93lx]

Not only is it not abnormal, it's the only way the thing can work if there's a load on the circuit.

OK, OK, you got me. But you know what I meant.

 

[TRWham]

OK, OK, you got me. But you know what I meant.

Oh, I know you (and many others here) understand it, but there are others who don't and depend on this site for guidance, so we need to be precise for their sake.

 

[mike93lx]

Oh, I know you (and many others here) understand it, but there are others who don't and depend on this site for guidance, so we need to be precise for their sake.

Absolutely

 

[Firebrick43]

Why is everyone suggesting a black and a red?

There is nothing wrong with two blacks and you then don’t have to buy two separate spools of wire

 

[Dig Doug]

Welder circuits allow you to downsize the wire based on duty cycle. #12 with a 50a breaker covers most of the welders people use at home. But that means the circuit is only usable for a welder.

My welder has 6 ga wire and I have a 6 ga 40ft extension cord and a few dedicated 20 amp circuits for grinders/saw etc.

Never had an issue!

but I’m not an electrician

 

[mike93lx]

My welder has 6 ga wire and I have a 6 ga 40ft extension cord and a few dedicated 20 amp circuits for grinders/saw etc.

Never had an issue!

but I’m not an electrician

Of course #6 works fine. It's just not necessary in nearly all cases.

Hope you aren't using the ground as a neutral for those 120v receptacles though...

 

[Dig Doug]

Of course #6 works fine. It's just not necessary in nearly all cases.

Hope you aren't using the ground as a neutral for those 120v receptacles though...

Ahh nope!

I have a green wire and a white wire and don’t forget the black one!