Failed final electric?

[stinkity stoink]

I am not a professional electrician ,but I try to do thing correct.
I just failed my final inspection because I ran 14/3 romex for 2 seperate light circuits in my garage. They share a common neutral. The electrical inspector wants me to put the circuits on a 2 pole breaker instead of the single poles they are each on. Like I said I am not profesional ,but is this code? I spoke to a few electricians and they tell me that is crazy.

 

[mrb]

yep. if its a MWBC (multiwire branch circuit -shared neutral) it needs to be on a 2 pole breaker or have a handle tie.

 

[swaterbenny]

It's for safety you could turn off one breaker, and be servicing it, and still get shocked by the neutral, not cool whatsoever. Ben

 

[malibu101]

The electricians you spoke to were wrong. What was said above by other posters is true.

 

[Aceman]

Like I said I am not profesional ,but is this code? I spoke to a few electricians and they tell me that is crazy.

Are the electricians you spoke to licensed currently, or are they retired and been out of the loop for a while?

If they're currently licensed, that's scary they aren't aware of that code change. It's not some obscure new code either, they'd have to be living under a rock to not know that?? It came out in the 08 code, and we're almost to the '11 code already.

 

[stinkity stoink]

Electricians are licensed, but I guess never got hit with that one.

My question is than can I tie the breakers together (is there a code compliant tie?) .Or should I just replace them.
Thanks.....

 

[MrMark]

The correct double pole breaker is just two single poles packaged together with a handle tie. You can go either way, it doesn't matter. I happen to like the double pole breaker better because for the type breakers I have (Square D HOM) the tie bar is not that great.

The need for handle tie/double pole was discussed in publications way before the 2008 code came out. People have been aware of the dangers of these type circuits without the double pole breakers for a long time, code or not.

People also knew before 2008 code that it was smart to use double pole so that the panel could not get reworked and MWBC end up on the same phase. Then the neutral gets potentially overloaded.

 

[babzog]

Yup. Split plugs are very common (ie: kitchens, where you might have high draw loads near the same receptcle - kettle, toaster). You wire them with 14/3 so each plug is on a separate circuit but to a double pole breaker so they both trip at once. No big deal - hopefully you've got everything routed to the same general location and can just swap out the breaker. Used to be, you could get metal plates that would tie two poles together but I don't think you can get those anymore.

 

[malibu101]

Handle ties are readily available for Square D QO breakers. They pass when used for this purpose where I work. They are kinda loose and chessy fitting but it makes it right by the inspector.
Other brands I don't know too well.

 

[Rudeboy 1]

It is an '08 change to the nec. In California we are still on the '05 (cec '07) so if the OP was here, there would have been no problem with the install.

 

[swaterbenny]

A lic. foreman I work for skipped it on the latest project, but that doesn't make it right. He is in charge not me. Ben

 

[Charles (in GA)]

NEC 210.4(B)

Charles

 

[Weedwaka]

why not just put in the double pole breakers ? They are so dang cheap.

 

[cowboyjosh]

Yep, no handle tie or double pole on MWBC will fail ya. Simply make the correction and reschedule the final and you'll be alright. I've been a contractor for more then a decade now and we still fail finals on stupid stuff that simply gets over looked, even after you double checked everything.

 

[stinkity stoink]

I switched out the breaker today. It wasn't as cheap as I would have liked. I have a murray panel that is set up with twin breakers on 1 side and I put the 220 breakers on the other side (lift, mill, high bay, compressor). They dont sell the twin breakers in a 2 pole so I had to buy a quad breaker. 2 pole in the middle and single on the ends , $24. Than I figured they might want a disconnect on my compressor being he stopped before he went to the loft. so the switch for the compressor was a 220, 30 amp switch ,that was $26.
Well hopefully that covers everything.

 

[malibu101]

On your disconnect-
IF a disconnect is required for a piece of equipment it must be within sight and less than 50' from said piece of equipment.
EDIT- under a certain horsepower or amperage (I forget) a cord and plug connection is considered a disconnecting means too.

 

[Norcal]

A cheap A/C pullout disco is less then $10.00 & avail in 3 flavors, 30A & 60A fusible and 60A non fusible. A Canadian poster mentioned split wired receptacles in a kitchen, that pretty went out when GFCI requirements came into force for kitchens in the NEC, due the high cost of 2-pole GFCI circuit breakers compared to a GFCI receptacle.

 

[mrb]

A cheap A/C pullout disco is less then $10.00 & avail in 3 flavors, 30A & 60A fusible and 60A non fusible. A Canadian poster mentioned split wired receptacles in a kitchen, that pretty went out when GFCI requirements came into force for kitchens in the NEC, due the high cost of 2-pole GFCI circuit breakers compared to a GFCI receptacle.

i wired my kitchen with MWBC (before the handle tie rule ) then put GFCI at each receptacle. I wanted every receptacle to look the same, and i have a habit of using individual gfcis anyways to reduce tripping from cumulative leakage and isolate interruptions from gfci tripping.

 

[Norcal]

i wired my kitchen with MWBC (before the handle tie rule ) then put GFCI at each receptacle. I wanted every receptacle to look the same, and i have a habit of using individual gfcis anyways to reduce tripping from cumulative leakage and isolate interruptions from gfci tripping.

That is not a "real world" situation when your dealing w/ bidding on tract or spec homes, any EC that bid a job that way would lose the bid. Those type of dwellings are built as cheap as they can get away with.

 

[avc8130]

Yup. Split plugs are very common (ie: kitchens, where you might have high draw loads near the same receptcle - kettle, toaster). You wire them with 14/3 so each plug is on a separate circuit but to a double pole breaker so they both trip at once. No big deal - hopefully you've got everything routed to the same general location and can just swap out the breaker. Used to be, you could get metal plates that would tie two poles together but I don't think you can get those anymore.

14 in a kitchen? Around these parts they want to see 2 20A "small appliance" circuits in a kitchen. In the 3 kitchens I have wired up we ran 2 separate 12/2 runs and alternated which outlets were fed from each circuit (separate boxes). The first outlets on the circuits got GFCI receptacles and each other got the sticker. Inspectors LOVED it.
ac

 

[babzog]

14 in a kitchen? Around these parts they want to see 2 20A "small appliance" circuits in a kitchen. In the 3 kitchens I have wired up we ran 2 separate 12/2 runs and alternated which outlets were fed from each circuit (separate boxes). The first outlets on the circuits got GFCI receptacles and each other got the sticker. Inspectors LOVED it.
ac

That's another way to do it, but, you'll also have both sockets in a given receptacle on the same circuit. With a 14/3 run to each receptacle, you just break out the tab connecting the hot screws and wire the two hot wires to the receptacle. You've now got 30A at each receptacle vs 20. The GFCI addition is interesting (I don't have that in my kitchen). You could also put in a GFCI breaker too (but I prefer the approach you described, protecting the first plug in the circuit - easier to reset).

 

[Norcal]

The 14/3 multi-wire kitchen circuit was in Canada, the CEC has/had some strange rules compared to US NEC requirements....

 

[avc8130]

That's another way to do it, but, you'll also have both sockets in a given receptacle on the same circuit. With a 14/3 run to each receptacle, you just break out the tab connecting the hot screws and wire the two hot wires to the receptacle. You've now got 30A at each receptacle vs 20. The GFCI addition is interesting (I don't have that in my kitchen). You could also put in a GFCI breaker too (but I prefer the approach you described, protecting the first plug in the circuit - easier to reset).

GFCI reset must be at the receptacle according to inspector in my town. Breaker is not allowed in a kitchen setting.

The inspector wanted to see 40A dedicated to "small appliance".
He also wanted to see dedicated fridge/dishwasher/range hood runs.
Lights on a separate circuit also.

He basically wanted 6 circuits in the kitchen alone!
ac

 

[MrMark]

GFCI reset must be at the receptacle according to inspector in my town. Breaker is not allowed in a kitchen setting.

The inspector wanted to see 40A dedicated to "small appliance".
He also wanted to see dedicated fridge/dishwasher/range hood runs.
Lights on a separate circuit also.

He basically wanted 6 circuits in the kitchen alone!
ac

I think the way your crew did it is the best. Thank you for posting that info. My house has the two circuits split on two walls, but I like the alternating method better.

Here is what I would do:

Dedicated circuits:

microwave (if built in)
dishwasher
anything with a motor (garbage disposal, range hood etc)
refrigerator
anything with a heater element (instahot for example)
2 small appliance
lights on their own for sure.
range (240)

All 120V run in 12 gauge. No 14 gauge allowed in a modern house. My rules.

 

[walrus]

GFCI reset must be at the receptacle according to inspector in my town. Breaker is not allowed in a kitchen setting.

The inspector wanted to see 40A dedicated to "small appliance".
He also wanted to see dedicated fridge/dishwasher/range hood runs.
Lights on a separate circuit also.

He basically wanted 6 circuits in the kitchen alone!
ac

What he wants is a good idea but is it written in the towns code?

 

[Norcal]

A refrigerator is permitted on the small appliance branch circuit (SABC) by the NEC, lighting,DW's, disposals, etc, are not allowed on the SABC.

 

[malibu101]

All 120V run in 12 gauge. No 14 gauge allowed in a modern house. My rules.

Fully agreed.

 

[avc8130]

What he wants is a good idea but is it written in the towns code?

A refrigerator is permitted on the small appliance branch circuit (SABC) by the NEC, lighting,DW's, disposals, etc, are not allowed on the SABC.

Not officially...but in small town mafia NJ no sense in arguing. Cost more to argue then to just run the circuits.

I am aware fridge is allowed per NEC on SABC, BUT towns are allowed to adjust the code when they adopt it.

I have found the BEST thing is to talk to the inspector ahead of time. It is just easier to do it to their preference (unless it is RIDICULOUS).
ac

 

[Norcal]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMark
All 120V run in 12 gauge. No 14 gauge allowed in a modern house. My rules.

Fully agreed.

It makes little sense to use 12 AWG on lighting circuits, 14 AWG works just fine & is easier to work with in a residential setting & lighting circuits are not likely to be that heavily loaded, but w/ the 2008 NEC pretty much everything that does not have GFCI protection has to have AFCI's, & that changes the economics because a AFCI circuit breaker is way more expensive then a circuit breaker....

 

[MrMark]

It makes a lot of sense because lighting circuits always get cut into for future additions. I'm not sure what the rest of your post has to do with wire.

 

[walrus]

Not officially...but in small town mafia NJ no sense in arguing. Cost more to argue then to just run the circuits.

I am aware fridge is allowed per NEC on SABC, BUT towns are allowed to adjust the code when they adopt it.

I have found the BEST thing is to talk to the inspector ahead of time. It is just easier to do it to their preference (unless it is RIDICULOUS).
ac

Yeah, your probably right.I like to talk to the inspectors first also. Saves arguing in the end. . I just had an inspector tell me the job I'm doing was straight forward, don't worry about any inspections

 

[Norcal]

It makes a lot of sense because lighting circuits always get cut into for future additions. I'm not sure what the rest of your post has to do with wire.

Very simple, minimum number of circuits are being run because of AFCI's being costly.

 

[malibu101]

The municipality that I work in has some of their own rules as well as following NEC. When you get an electrical permit you also get a paper with the "extra" rules. Can't say you didn't know
One extra rule for example that homeowners can relate to- When upgrading a service, all visable knob and tube wiring in the basement must be removed to pass.

 

[MrMark]

Very simple, minimum number of circuits are being run because of AFCI's being costly.

Has any jurisdiction actually adopted that portion of the 2008 NEC? I am guessing that even those that have adopted the 2008 NEC would opt out of that controversial section.

 

[Norcal]

Has any jurisdiction actually adopted that portion of the 2008 NEC? I am guessing that even those that have adopted the 2008 NEC would opt out of that controversial section.

Some have opted out, but most have kept it. CA adopts the 2008 in Jan 2011.When any state adopts the 2008, the 42 circuit rule for panelboards is gone too but the 2011 should be published soon....

 

[MrMark]

Some have opted out, but most have kept it. CA adopts the 2008 in Jan 2011.When any state adopts the 2008, the 42 circuit rule for panelboards is gone too but the 2011 should be published soon....

Do you know if CA is opting out of the arc fault requirements (basically everwhere there is not a GFI) of the 2008 code?

It's funny that CA is adopting the 2008 when the 2011 is coming out.

 

[Norcal]

Do you know if CA is opting out of the arc fault requirements (basically everwhere there is not a GFI) of the 2008 code?

It's funny that CA is adopting the 2008 when the 2011 is coming out.

I do not think so, too many fire officials think AFCI's are great, my opinion of them is they are snake oil, but the idea is behind them is good, would have no issues if GFCI's had been required everywhere, are they are a inexpensive & proven safety device. Codes has been hijacked by manufacturers to sell products to a captive audience. 90.1 states that "This Code is not intended as a design specification or a instruction for untrained persons". The 1st half went out the window because the 2011 NEC is requiring neutrals @ all switches unless it's a conduit system. (this has been pushed by occupancy sensor manufacturers for a number of code cycles).


This is really getting off topic though.

 

[cowboyjosh]

I have always wired houses and buildings with neutrals @ all switches, conduit or not. I HATE HATE HATE when I do service work and need to install a occupancy / vacancy switch or a LUTRON dimmer or keypad for a Homeworks or Radio Ra system, or even a electronic countdown timer for a bathroom exhaust fan that requires a neutral connection and there is none in the box.

With all these NEW safety requirements (AFCI's, GFCI's, Tamper Outlets) its a damn wonder I survived growing up in a house with none of the aforementioned safety devices now required. Im surprised my folks survived growing up in houses without ground wires.

 

[MrMark]

So if you bring power into a switched light or outlet, for example, now you would have to run 12/3 down to the switch with black in and red back out and then have the white just loose in the box capped off? This type of design is now going to be required? I don't like the idea of wires capped off in boxes.

I think from a design standpoint it is usually better to bring the power into the switch, so this new requirement wouldn't affect anything there, but there are times when it makes sense to "back feed" the switch, if that is the term used by electricians.