failed inspection?!

[mike's48]

Just wanted to know if any of u folks failed your framing inspection and u told the inspecter that you didnt agree with him and didnt do what he said needed to be done? I have spoken with 6 carpenters and they are all agreeing with me, so what should I do?
Here is a picture of the so called problem.


My electrical passed but the framing didnt.
My garage is 28'x38', 8/12 pitch 10"ohang, stick built rafters 16" oc, 7/16 osb outside and in(hopefully)
When I asked the head hauncho at the inspections office about my roof , he said I need a 2"x10" ridge with 2" x 8" rafters 16"oc and 2"x6" collar ties 1/3 down from the top of the ridge.
No problem. Just what I did along with 2"x4" collar ties with vertical stays (not asked for) just above the 2x6 ties.
I also have an interior office wall 10' in from the back wall and a 4"x4" running from the floor to the ridge beam for my own for support.
Now they are saying that it is not enough support.....that I put the the collar ties in the wrong location, they should be 1/3 from the top of the wall plate up.
I told them the reason I needed the ceiling space is for my 2 posted lift headroom.
They want me to either install more 2x6 collar ties at 1/3 up or a lam beam all the way across my garage or 4"x6"x18' post every 5' oc down the middle of the garage.
or pay an engeneer to approve the roof system$$$$$$$
I want to tell him to jump in a lake but I don't know what ground I have. They are the ones who told me how to build it and now they are saying it wont work. I didn't get anything in writing just verbal.
I need to do something so I can finish my garage.... but what?
ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mike

 

[sparky1562]

That is a tough one. I guess you need to get ahold of a copy of the span tables that talk about the ridge beam size in order to get away without rafter ties. The collar ties should be in the upper third, and are there to resist up lift.

I assume they are concerned about the walls spreading.

Have you contacted any structural engineers to give you a price to look at it and render an opinion? (I know us engineers are scary folks, but we don't charge what lawyers do!) Ask those framers if they have any names. That might be your best bet at this point.

 

[rsanter]

to my knowledge they can tell you how to built it and if they told you wrong they are not responsable.

as far as I know you have a few options:
1 look at the codes and find proof that he is wrong, then go over his head
2 get an engineering approval
3 do what he wants (and then change it after final inspection if you think its safe to do so)

bob

 

[mike's48]

Sparky,
They told me the upper 1/3 and now they have changed their answer. They are talking about walls spreading with roof load(snow or ice) I understand that, but can I object or appeal without going thru the expence of a engineer? Like always I have gone waaaay over budget.
All of the framers said no problem, they blame it on the location of my county i'm building in. something to the affect of "inspectors not knowing the diffrence between their a** and a hole in the ground.
Thanx for your help!
Mike

 

[BLUBAYOU]

I would say it might not hurt to talk to an engineer. My town recently changed their rules on permits/construction and anything over 250sqft (even decks/sheds/etc) needs to be stamped. I build a lot of decks and the like, and that has put a bit of a wrinkle in the process. I always overbuild anyway, but it is one more monetary and time cost for each project. I have a good relationship with the building department (around the corner from my house, built my house myself, along with many other projects dealing with them) and I understand why they have done it (think hot tubs on second story decks).

Anyway, I am in the framing stage of my garage build (all myself) and I ended up having an architect/engineer draw and stamp my plans. I have the know how to draw the plans (CAD/design experience) but since I needed them stamped, I decided to just let him do the whole shebang. The price was reasonable, so it might not be so bad for you, especially since they would just be looking at what you have, rather than designing from scratch. You may not even need the engineer if you can find what you need in the appropriate tables.

As much as I dislike the new rules in my locality, it does give notification if they are not going to allow something before I start building, so there is no controversy as long as the building is built as drawn.

 

[GSSFC]

The reason for the ties being lower is to help prevent the walls from bowing out or the rafters sagging due to snow load. In NH I would say you need to go lower, you are in Virginia, not as much snow. I'll tell you what I would do cuz i hate inspectors and I hate delays. Get a couple 2x8's and make a beam. install two of them on the top plates and bolt them to the adjacent rafters. If you shop is 20' deep install the first one 7' from the front, and the second 7' from the back. This should satisfy the nazi's and get you though you CO inspection. Then remove the suckers and install your lift. I think what you have built is satisfactory.

Tim

 

[BillK]

Mike,
Ask your question again here: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?start=Start+Reading+>>

But, I can assure you that arguing with the inspector will only make things worse. It will be far less expensive in the long run to pay an engineer to look at your setup and tell you an approved method that will make the inspector happy.

 

[mike's48]

GSSFC,
They won't accept that! They want them all the way across 28' every other rafter 32". I understand what they are trying to do buy why change their rules in the middle of the game? because they can? Thats not right!!!!!!!!!
Thanx anyway,
Mike

 

[mike's48]

Thanx Billk

 

[BLUBAYOU]

I'd explore other options that they might accept, or just do it, keep moving, and talk isht about them after you get your CC

 

[GSSFC]

Time is money, do what they want and move on. You can remove them later if you want I guess.

Tim

 

[BLUBAYOU]

oh, and I think the confusion with the ties is in the type. Collar ties are for uplift (installed in the upper 1/3), rafter ties are to keep walls from spreading (installed in lower 1/2)

 

[mike's48]

I'm not trying to be a jerk here and neither is the inspecter. He is just doing his job I know but that still dosent make things right.
I have bought the 4x6x18' to install 5' oc but I was just hoping their was another way. I can always use them for benches when the final co is approved.
Thanx for letting me blast! Thanx for all your help guys.
Mike

 

[PurdueSD]

My father built homes his entire life and I have been by his side for a good portion of mine. Speaking from experience you need to get ahold of a structural engineer. If he stamps off on your truss design the problem will resolve itself. Keep in mind the structural engineer is putting his name on the line (accepting liability). If he suggests improvements they are for a good reason.

Its amazing what passes code and what you get hassled about that is overbuilt. Lots of times, if the inspector hasnt read it in his text book, its wrong. A simple structural engineering stamp will overide the inspectors doubts. Though i think a structural engineer is going to have issues with your truss design. It shouldnt cost you more than a couple hundred dollars for him to run the numbers. The hard part will be finding an engineer that is willing to mess with you for such little dough. Goodlluck to you.

 

[mike's48]

BLUEBAYOU,
I didnt realize their were rafter ties and collar ties, I thought they were the same. I guess if I had asked all of the right questions I might have gotten the full answer. The inspecter was not wrong. I was not asking the right questions. Thank You!
I will call them tomorrow and fix this problem and finish my GARAGE!
Have a good week!
Mike

 

[BLUBAYOU]

Glad I could help shine some light on it for you. Keep us posted with the results

 

[kbs2244]

I don’t what they are called, but in a lot of older construction you would see the wall and roof joint reinforced with diagonals that would go from 24 to 30 down from the top plate and up to about the same on the joist.
It triangulated the joint.
It would tale away some of your head room, but only at the very edge of the room.

 

[Steve in Mi]

I really think I would get a structural engineer involved. You are not going to like a post every 5' (I'm guessing) and what are these 4 X 6's going to sit on, a 4" poured floor (?). What support will be used at the top of the posts? BTW, I do think the inspector is doing you a favor by catching this. I believe an engineer can propose a fix with fewer post using a beam (maybe something less than a lam) at the top and spec adequate shoring at the ground. However you decide to handle it I'm sure future enjoyment in this space will wash away any current blip in the radar.

fwiw, a metal roof can shed snow better than shingles.

 

[Sundowner]

I am a structural engineer.
I'm not going to stamp your plans, but if you send them to me as a .pdf, I can review them and maybe offer some suggestions that will appease the building inspector and still make room for your lift.

 

[KMR Construction]

Go to the lumber yard you baught all the materials from. They should have an engeneering department ussually for free. Have them engenneer a ridge beam and put it in. This will save you the money of paying and still having to do it

 

[Garage_Mahal]

I'm an engineer, but not a structural engineer. My amateur opinion is you are not going to like the results of the wall spread calculations and will need to add reinforcement. You have very tall walls and a long distance from the tops of the walls to your ties.

 

[Ironcrow]

I'd add material to the ridge until it looked like a flat roof truss using the space between the existing ridge and existing ties. Add some sistered studs in the rake walls at each end, probably double shear the end walls to spread the roof load into the footings at each end of the building.

Advantages: 1) no violation of the space you wanted 2) no tearing out anything that is already there 3) no expensive material needed (like a glu-lam)

Disadvantages: 1) more work 2) you'll have to pay an engineer to bless it.