Far from the power lines, what to do?

[reader2580]

Solar panels generally last a lot longer than ten years. There are solar panels still in operation from the 1970s. Mine are are a dozen years old and still working just fine.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not sure if there is an inspection involved, but make sure that GDO back up battery is in place as Senate Bill 969 has a $1000 fine for violation. I am assuming you are in California as I believe it is the only state that mandates GDO battery back up.

Thank you for reminding me why I fled California 12 years ago. Life is MUCH better now.

people actually died in fires because they couldnt get their GD open... which is the reason for the law

 

[dcg9381]

Update as in replace due to life expectancy. No battery lives forever.

Batteries, traditionally have been the high maintenance and replacement item. Lifepo4 should change that and even in my motorcycles and "small" vehicles / RVs, I've made the switch without the drama of lithium-ion. Estimated life is 10 years, I can't confirm that. I can confirm that I haven't had to replace a lithium MC or RV battery yet.

Here, most of the people I know who went solar are on their second or third array in 25 years. The life expectancy is 10 years +/-.

I've done 5 or so solar arrays in the last 20 years. All of them still operating. I did my first repair on one last weekend due to a "UV" exposed wire. I'm sure that panels die, but I've never had one go dead. They do degrade, but most warranties put them at 80% output at the 10 year mark. 3 full systems is 25 years is nuts... It'd be hard to get your money out of that.

The EV batteries were listed in that huge "fire hazard do not park in garage or near house / business structure" list that is being released. I don't remember whether the list was fully released or just partially. Eventually all those batteries will be recalled but for now letters are going out that say do not park... . Anyway, if a battery ends up on a list like that, the scooters that explode etc.,

The "risky" battery is lithium-ion, still used in a few EVs and even that fire risk is really low OTHER than if you damage it or charge it poorly. Most of the "consumer grade" scooters with fire risks were due to dumb-charging and lack of cell monitoring. You are referring to the NHTSA issued a critical recall - these batteries were defective design on busses as part of a pilot program. It's particular to that set of batteries, system design, not the tech as a whole.

Sure, there is fire risk in everything, but I suspect that most of this is overblown unless there was (and there has been) design defects. I've been told not to drive my "regular" vehicles for all sorts of reasons ranging from exploding airbags to lugs that fail..

What no one paid attention to when they were purchased, is that the will not recharge once they get below 40F. So - one has a garage with a battery that has some cut off below a certain temperature. What happens if it is 40F like the buses and the garage gets down to 30F for a week?

The risk here is likely to the DIY'er that doesn't know what he/she is doing. Lots of modern batteries have internal protection for things like temp and when "contractors" design systems for off grid, we handle these things via various ways. Yep, that risk was there, but the tech is evolving. In my RV, it's actually the battery that controls the charger - which gives temperature and individual cell protection, as well as over current, under-voltage, over-voltage protections.

Modern EVs "battery condition" when charging/used in low temperatures . It's part of the design of the system. It's also part of what eats the range.

Also figured that in 10 years the present items will no longer be available but something newer and better designed will be. Hence - an upgrade.

That's true... Let alone expecting to exercise a warranty on a battery from 5 years ago that wasn't made here.

 

[BurtEggley]

Solar panels generally last a lot longer than ten years. There are solar panels still in operation from the 1970s. Mine are are a dozen years old and still working just fine.

that may be what you experienced but not what our friends have experienced. 10 - 15 years and time seems to find something in the electronics to fail - then the company that installed it, and the company that manufactured the system is out of business too. Ask another solar contractor to take a look and the answer is always the same, "we can't fix the old one but we can give you a good deal on a new one."

Have you looked at the electronics in yours, then looked to see what parts are available if needed? I'd have good spares of critical parts on hand just in case.

 

[dcg9381]

that may be what you experienced but not what our friends have experienced. 10 - 15 years and time seems to find something in the electronics to fail - then the company that installed it, and the company that manufactured the system is out of business too. Ask another solar contractor to take a look and the answer is always the same, "we can't fix the old one but we can give you a good deal on a new one."

That makes a little more sense than the panels failing. Likely an inverter problem. And yea, inverter tech changes so rapidly that you'll never be able to buy a "new" (older model) inverter.

But just replacing the inverter, most can be configured to handle the panel/string configuration and replacing that invert is a fraction of the cost of installing a new system.

Last grid tie inverter I installed (Frontius) comes with a 2 year warranty, extendable to 10 years max. But in between that 2-10 year mark, they're not replacing it with the same inverter make/model. Inverter warranty won't cover the labor.

Frontius has been in business for 80 years. EG-4? Good luck...

Have you looked at the electronics in yours, then looked to see what parts are available if needed? I'd have good spares of critical parts on hand just in case.

That's like asking me to keep spare parts for my Sony receiver.. And it's a bit like owning TVs, today a decent 6kW inverter can be had for $1500 or so. I spent 2x that 5 years ago...

There really aren't many "parts" to these, they are largely components. Component fails, you replace it - welcome to modern electronics. Maybe replace a fan or something like that you could replace it.

There are micro-inverter systems. If I had one of those, I'd keep spares.

I had spare connectors 2->1 connectors on hand last week when my array indicated "arc fault", kept all the tools to do solar, spare wire, etc.

 

[twinfin]

Solar panels generally last a lot longer than ten years. There are solar panels still in operation from the 1970s. Mine are are a dozen years old and still working just fine.

I’m at the 8 year mark on my solar array up at the house and they are still capable of exceeding rated output on a cold but sunny day with a little boost from “edge effect” from clouds. I expect they’ll continue to produce sufficient power for years to come. My lead-acid battery bank (also 8 years old) will age out well before the solar array.

As for the micro off-grid system down at the Sprinter garage, it will be interesting to see how long it all lasts.

 

[BurtEggley]

That makes a little more sense than the panels failing. Likely an inverter problem. And yea, inverter tech changes so rapidly that you'll never be able to buy a "new" (older model) inverter.

But just replacing the inverter, most can be configured to handle the panel/string configuration and replacing that invert is a fraction of the cost of installing a new system.

Last grid tie inverter I installed (Frontius) comes with a 2 year warranty, extendable to 10 years max. But in between that 2-10 year mark, they're not replacing it with the same inverter make/model. Inverter warranty won't cover the labor.

Frontius has been in business for 80 years. EG-4? Good luck...


That's like asking me to keep spare parts for my Sony receiver.. And it's a bit like owning TVs, today a decent 6kW inverter can be had for $1500 or so. I spent 2x that 5 years ago...

There really aren't many "parts" to these, they are largely components. Component fails, you replace it - welcome to modern electronics. Maybe replace a fan or something like that you could replace it.

There are micro-inverter systems. If I had one of those, I'd keep spares.

I had spare connectors 2->1 connectors on hand last week when my array indicated "arc fault", kept all the tools to do solar, spare wire, etc.

Sony is not really the best analogy unless a whole $50,000 theatre system is built around it in a way that if it fails all the other parts have to be replaced too. That has been the problem our friends encounter - the panels were fine but for some reason no solar contractor had, or could get the parts to make it work, or so they say. There are a limited number of people who do this work, and a lot of the contractors just disappear. We have another set of friends who have a half of a $500,000 solar system installed on their ranch/farm. Actually, all the panels are up, the lines run, the inverters are mounted, but the boxes with the solar batteries in them are just sitting for the last year rotting in the weather. A couple days before the job was finished, the contractor and workers just failed to show up. Now they are left with a huge lien contract that was filed on the ranch, the bank who filed it disappeared, and it is costing a fortune to pay an attorney to deal with it. Every time they drive in or out there are all those panels taking up a field just doing nothing. I cannot tell you how stressed they are over this.

 

[dcg9381]

Sony is not really the best analogy unless a whole $50,000 theatre system is built around it in a way that if it fails all the other parts have to be replaced too.

Let me explain a little more:
I'm not an audiophile, but my friends who are spend thousands on head units. You don't keep "parts" around for them. And in 5 years, it's not like [whatever manufacturer] is going to offer replace one that old. That's kinda like an inverter... The whole thing runs by the inverter.

The "budget" of the system - you mention $50k, it's very much like it would be with an audio system. Part is in speakers, part is in wiring, part is in components/amps. AV wiring and protocols change. Way easier to find AV guys and most audiophiles do the work though.. Different when you're dealing with 400+ volts DC.

That has been the problem our friends encounter - the panels were fine but for some reason no solar contractor had, or could get the parts to make it work, or so they say. There are a limited number of people who do this work, and a lot of the contractors just disappear.

I totally get that. As an "independent" (very part time) installer, I can almost guarantee you that if the inverter failed, you absolutely can make it work pretty easily. The shops that do this work simply don't want to. Nor do they want to guarantee anything they didn't install end to end, do the permits, have the liability with the POC, etc.. There is massive margin on solar, my margins were well over 50%. And as long as you "have work" they won't chose a patch job over a do-over....

So I'm not invalidating their experience, but if that was a residential job, inverter died, I'd bid on replacing the inverter, but with no warranty (I didn't install the rest of the system).

I stared off buying "USA only" Solar panels for customer warranty. Sharp. Sharp stopped making them. Gave up after that, on the panel side, there is no warranty (effectively). But they rarely die.. And if they did, various ways to work around single panel failures.

We have another set of friends who have a half of a $500,000 solar system installed on their ranch/farm. Actually, all the panels are up, the lines run, the inverters are mounted, but the boxes with the solar batteries in them are just sitting for the last year rotting in the weather. A couple days before the job was finished, the contractor and workers just failed to show up. Now they are left with a huge lien contract that was filed on the ranch, the bank who filed it disappeared, and it is costing a fortune to pay an attorney to deal with it.

$500k is "commercial level" solar. And that's a contractor problem... I've seen it with GCs (most commonly here, my state is wide open), wind installers, etc.... And I'm sorry that happened. Most independents aren't going to "fix" a commercial level job nor do they have the capacity to do so, that's just a hot mess... Kinda like being out of pocket on a house that doesn't get a CO. It's the fault of the contractor, not the tech. I've seen GCs complete a job, get paid, then the supplier comes and liens the home owner. Business issue, not unique to solar.

 

[jkeyser14]

Depends on if one lives on the remote property or somewhere else.... Single building on a remote site, without obvious activity a significant portion of the time, is a ripe spot for crackhead attack in some areas. Go to some place like Loving County, Texas, and 90% of the county will know a stranger is around before you get 2 miles into the county...only 48 residents in the entire county....

With that few residents you can bet they are all related.

 

[logical]

I'm sure there's a good reason...but why did you build it so far away from the house?

 

[duneslider]

I've been planning to do something like this in a small lawnmower shed. I just want enough power to use a light occasionally and charge batteries for my weedeater and mower in the summer. I move the batteries to the garage in the winter but still would occasionally like a light in the winter.

My liftmaster door openers beep incessantly when there is no battery in them, or the battery is low. Mine aren't the jackshaft style but I assumed they all would do that.

 

[twinfin]

I'm sure there's a good reason...but why did you build it so far away from the house?

Our ridge top home site does not have the room for it in a practical sense and the aesthetics of a tall building like that would detract from the views and natural features of our home site. Our well, 6,000 gallon water tanks and solar array are also tucked away, outside of site lines leaving us a very clean, uncluttered and welcoming home site.

Since the van is an RV for road trips and not a daily driver, this site on our property made the most sense to place this sort of structure. Security is not an issue for the remote building site; “the hills have eyes” as they say.

 

[reader2580]

Have you looked at the electronics in yours, then looked to see what parts are available if needed? I'd have good spares of critical parts on hand just in case.

Your original post stated the solar panels were only lasting 10 years. The inverters may not last as long as the panels, but the good news is there are many inexpensive inverters now.

One of my Solaredge inverters died after five or six years. Solaredge sent me a new inverter under warranty. I did all of the electrical for my solar system so I replaced the inverter myself. I also have a spare Solaredge inverter that came unexpectedly with a pile of solar panels I bought.

 

[txvwnut]

As for the micro off-grid system down at the Sprinter garage, it will be interesting to see how long it all lasts.

I was going to ask what was Ecoflows suggestion for leaving the solar array connected all the time. Jackery suggests not having a permanent attached solar panel as each time the unit senses it, it is considered a charge cycle. The Jackery that I have is rated for 10,000 charge cycles so I just use the foldable panel when I feel the need to recharge.

 

[dcg9381]

I've been planning to do something like this in a small lawnmower shed. I just want enough power to use a light occasionally and charge batteries for my weedeater and mower in the summer. I move the batteries to the garage in the winter but still would occasionally like a light in the winter.

If you can stick with 12V systems and 12V batteries, this is pretty easy. As soon as you have to invert and provide 120V AC to power the "weedeater charger" it gets to be a pain in the ***. I'd look if there are any DC power options for the weedeater battery type. I know Maktia has some 12V DC based chargers for 18V batteries.

My liftmaster door openers beep incessantly when there is no battery in them, or the battery is low. Mine aren't the jackshaft style but I assumed they all would do that.

I just installed a liftmaster jackshaft with the dreaded 12V battery. When it dies (2-3 years), I'll be replacing that battery with a LiFe04 battery. Doesn't matter jackshaft/non-jackshaft..

 

[duneslider]

If you can stick with 12V systems and 12V batteries, this is pretty easy. As soon as you have to invert and provide 120V AC to power the "weedeater charger" it gets to be a pain in the ***. I'd look if there are any DC power options for the weedeater battery type. I know Maktia has some 12V DC based chargers for 18V batteries.




I just installed a liftmaster jackshaft with the dreaded 12V battery. When it dies (2-3 years), I'll be replacing that battery with a LiFe04 battery. Doesn't matter jackshaft/non-jackshaft..

Yep, I have 12v makita chargers.

I have replaced my liftmaster batteries with Lifepo4 batteries, the ones that came in them did last 4 years so that's not terrible.

 

[dcg9381]

Yep, I have 12v makita chargers.

I have replaced my liftmaster batteries with Lifepo4 batteries, the ones that came in them did last 4 years so that's not terrible.

Get a charge controller that has both a 12V battery charger AND a 12V output that has "low voltage" protection. That way you'll never over-discharge... For a remote system or "shed" system, I'd probably stick with deep cycle lead acid battery, so you don't have to deal with the cold-charge issue of lithium... 100-150 watts of solar should do it.

 

[BurtEggley]

Your original post stated the solar panels were only lasting 10 years. The inverters may not last as long as the panels, but the good news is there are many inexpensive inverters now.

One of my Solaredge inverters died after five or six years. Solaredge sent me a new inverter under warranty. I did all of the electrical for my solar system so I replaced the inverter myself. I also have a spare Solaredge inverter that came unexpectedly with a pile of solar panels I bought.

Their solar systems failed. The inverter is the defective component the people I know have seen go bad. Just like yours went bad. The only difference is that the companies that installed them, and the companies that made the inverters are gone. Other solar contractors they all called said that they could not get an inverter that would work with the systems. I dunno. They all told me the same story, how much they hated the short lifespans.

Also I was just at another friend's place today 60 miles from here where they are trying to get a half-installed solar unit off their property that was orphaned when the contractor, solar company, and financing bank all disappeared. Their attorney is still trying to get the lien removed that was filed before completion, along with the half-installed panels that are on a tilted ground rack about 200' long on their property. It happened to a lot of people all over Northern California about 12 - 18 months ago. My only concern for the OP is whether the system he has will meet all his needs and for as long as he planned it. I've reached a point in my life where I am tired of whole systems that have to be replaced because one key part of it is no longer available. I like to keep things 15 -30 years. Many of my tools are 40 -50 years old and they still work fine. As an example, we recently replaced the washer and dryer. The new washer uses 10% less water but it takes 3X as long to wash a load. The reason I could not fix the old washer is that a bearing and bracket went bad that was not available new or used. I would have been happy fixing the old one because it was in excellent shape otherwise even after 20 years.

 

[dcg9381]

Their solar systems failed. The inverter is the defective component the people I know have seen go bad.

That's a single component failure. It's not a system failure. But it will take down the "system".
This is why micro-inverter systems are a thing. No single point of failure. Just lots of little ones.

Just like yours went bad. The only difference is that the companies that installed them, and the companies that made the inverters are gone. Other solar contractors they all called said that they could not get an inverter that would work with the systems. I dunno. They all told me the same story, how much they hated the short lifespans.

It's the same as a garage door opener. You can't get the same 10 year old motor. But they'll install a new unit. Garage door and rails stay the same.

It's just that the solar industry (contractors) want to warranty the whole thing and likely they have insurance and maybe a bond with the utility that requires them to be liable, so they don't want to piece-meal it back together.

You need someone like me who will deal with that, but I'll charge you quite a bit because my margin on a new (full) system is near 100% and I have more "full systems" than I want to do.

Also I was just at another friend's place today 60 miles from here where they are trying to get a half-installed solar unit off their property that was orphaned when the contractor, solar company, and financing bank all disappeared.

This was a "commercial level" $500k+ deal. It's no different than a home-building GC around here (which are barely regulated) that got paid in advance of the work they were doing and decided to bail. This is a hot mess. And best thing to do may be to sell off the components otherwise it costs a lot more to clean up a mess than start from scratch, especially at "commercial level" liability levels with the grid.

 

[BurtEggley]

That's a single component failure. It's not a system failure. But it will take down the "system".
This is why micro-inverter systems are a thing. No single point of failure. Just lots of little ones.


It's the same as a garage door opener. You can't get the same 10 year old motor. But they'll install a new unit. Garage door and rails stay the same.

It's just that the solar industry (contractors) want to warranty the whole thing and likely they have insurance and maybe a bond with the utility that requires them to be liable, so they don't want to piece-meal it back together.

You need someone like me who will deal with that, but I'll charge you quite a bit because my margin on a new (full) system is near 100% and I have more "full systems" than I want to do.

This was a "commercial level" $500k+ deal. It's no different than a home-building GC around here (which are barely regulated) that got paid in advance of the work they were doing and decided to bail. This is a hot mess. And best thing to do may be to sell off the components otherwise it costs a lot more to clean up a mess than start from scratch, especially at "commercial level" liability levels with the grid.

pretty sure their attorney told them to not touch anything - so there is sits in the weather.