Feed to Pole Barn 100Amp Panel

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Well here is another feeder question for a pole barn build.

I have a fairly new panel in my garage that has the feed through lugs that I plan to utilize to put the feed to my building. Picture of that panel below.



It will be feeding a 100 amp General Electric panel that I scored for free several years ago, in great shape has main breaker and nothing else. So how good the deal will be is the cost of the breakers for it.

Anyways my shop will be 350' from this panel and I suspect I will need to utilize the 4/0 aluminum for the distance.

Next question is since this is a feed through panel, not technically a "sub panel" do I place the ground rods at the shop?

So 3 4/0 AL conductors from panel to panel through conduit? Then copper ground rods - 8' apart and Cu wire from box at shop?

Not an electrician but stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night

 

[CNGsaves]

LOTS of QUESTIONS:

Does . . . . . . Shop = Pole Barn ???
. . . . . . or . . . .
So you have "Garage" already (with panel above) . . . AND . . adding another Pole Barn that is another 350 ft away (ie "Shop") ??

Where are pics of MAIN Electric Panel where power comes from in the first place?? How many Amps there ?? What wire now in place from Main panel to Subpanel shown above ?? What is distance from Main Panel to Subpanel and how does the wire get there (buried in conduit, aerial, or what) ??

Are there ground rods or ufer in place at Subpanel building now ??

 

[pattenp]

The new panel at the pole barn will be a sub panel because I believe those lugs are disconnected by the main 200A breaker. So you need a 4 wire feed to the pole barn and 2 ground rods at the pole barn.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Here are some answers

Panel above is in garage 5 feet from pole with transformer on it
Wire from meter box is 4/0 aluminum to panel above
The panel above feeds the following - pool pump, hottub, 120V well pump, garage circuits
It also has a 30 amp interlock for generator feed

Yes "shop" equals pole building

 

[CNGsaves]

With magnifying glass I see 200 Amp breaker in that panel in existing garage you have have now . . . thus Main Panel since it's straight from PoCo . . right ??

So Pole Barn that is 350 ft away would be Subpanel that you want 100A . . right ??

Is foundation/concrete work done for Pole Barn . . have Ufer or not ??

Not an electrician but sure that sparky's will say both "garage . . ie 5 ft from pole" will need ground rods, along with 350 ft away pole barn will need ground rods/ufer. PLUS, there needs to be 4 wire from garage to pole barn.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Yes that panel is straight from the Pole and is 200A, house has a seperate feed from the same transformer.

So a mobile home feed 4/0 4/0 4/0 2/0 would work with ground rods at pole building?

Garage panel does have the 2 ground rods.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

No building as of yet.

I am hosting a wedding this summer and want to install a temporary power panel for the tent. The supply for my future building is so that I can size it right to be used for that building.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes 4/0 is the min u will need. Run 4-wire and because u will have a footing, u will need a UFER.

For temp power use 2 ground rods.

Make sure to isolate the neutral bar from the ground bar and panel enclosure. U might have to buy a ground bar...

 

[Charles (in GA)]

UFER if the slab is in "direct contact with the Earth". Most slabs have vapor barrier, thus do not qualify for UFER.

Charles

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Thanks guys, I was on the right track but wanted to confirm.

More than likely I will have an electrician do the final blessing on my shop install (when the time comes). But wanted to do the temporary set upon my own.

 

[Slowgsr]

4/0 aluminum is fine.
However, it's a sub panel and services only get grounded at the point of entry. So you need a bond from your main panel to sub panel. If you ground both locations you risk causing a ground loop.

I'd run from those straight through lugs to a 200a switch beside your existing panel. Then to the new building from that. If you don't need 200a out there you could cut down on the wire size as well. Bigger wire is always good for future

Codes in ontario anyways.

At my dads place I ran 3/0 copper in 4" pvc. Was 800ft though.

I don't like GE loadcenters. Good luck

 

[wyliesdiesels]

4/0 aluminum is fine.
However, it's a sub panel and services only get grounded at the point of entry. So you need a bond from your main panel to sub panel. If you ground both locations you risk causing a ground loop.

I'd run from those straight through lugs to a 200a switch beside your existing panel. Then to the new building from that. If you don't need 200a out there you could cut down on the wire size as well. Bigger wire is always good for future

Codes in ontario anyways.

At my dads place I ran 3/0 copper in 4" pvc. Was 800ft though.

I don't like GE loadcenters. Good luck

huh? If youre talking about grounding electrodes, then thats not true, in the US anyway. Detached structures need grounding electrodes...

 

[Aceman]

I wouldn't install that 100 amp panel. If you do, you have to take care to stay in compliance of 250.122(B). Also, your oversized wires may not fit the lugs.

It would be far simpler to buy a 200 amp panel, you know the wires will fit, and there would be no worries about 250.122(B). Plus, being a 200 amp panel, it should be easy to find one with lots of spaces for not a lot of money. This would also allow you to buy the same panel as your home, which looks to be a Homeline.

 

[jvitez]

huh? If youre talking about grounding electrodes, then thats not true, in the US anyway. Detached structures need grounding electrodes...

The post mentioned Ontario, ie Canada. We do not need a ground rod in an outbuilding.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Pulling up an older thread as I am getting ready to purchase wiring for this.
Couple questions.

Could I utilize this wire?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwir...m-Mobile-Home-Feeder-Cable-30161401/202316548

Is 2" PVC Conduit good for this sized wire?

This would save me a couple hundred bucks over the: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwir...2-0-Aluminum-USE-MHF-Cable-28714401/202250401

Thanks

 

[pattenp]

The wire you linked to is fine. But you need to use at least 2.5" conduit. 3" will make the pull easier. And I'd use the 4/0 neutral instead of the 2/0.




*

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Is the 4/0 neutral required, suggested or preference?

Would the 2/0 Neutral reduce the feed capacity to the building?

 

[pattenp]

Is the 4/0 neutral required, suggested or preference?

Would the 2/0 Neutral reduce the feed capacity to the building?

The neutral is carrying the current that's not in balance on your 120V loads. So technically it could be possible if using a lot of 120V loads that the neutral could become over loaded. The odds I imagine in your case is minute. With the distance you are going is one reason I wouldn't reduce the neutral. If being inspected you may need to calculate the neutral loads to show you can have a reduced neutral.

Here's some code info:

220.61 Feeder or Service Neutral Load.

(A) Basic Calculation. The feeder or service neutral load
shall be the maximum unbalance of the load determined by
this article. The maximum unbalanced load shall be the
maximum net calculated load between the neutral conductor
and any one ungrounded conductor.

Exception: For 3-wire, 2-phase or 5-wire, 2-phase systems,
the maximum unbalanced load shall be the maximum net
calculated load between the neutral conductor and any one
ungrounded conductor multiplied by 140 percent.

(B) Permitted Reductions. A service or feeder supplying
the following loads shall be permitted to have an additional
demand factor of 70 percent applied to the amount in
220.61(B)(1) or portion of the amount in 220.61(B)(2) determined
by the basic calculation:

(1) A feeder or service supplying household electric
ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking
units, and electric dryers, where the maximum unbalanced
load has been determined in accordance with
Table 220.55 for ranges and Table 220.54 for dryers

(2) That portion of the unbalanced load in excess of 200
amperes where the feeder or service is supplied from a
3-wire dc or single-phase ac system; or a 4-wire,
3-phase, 3-wire, 2-phase system; or a 5-wire, 2-phase
system

(C) Prohibited Reductions. There shall be no reduction of
the neutral or grounded conductor capacity applied to the
amount in 220.61(C)(1), or portion of the amount in (C)(2),
from that determined by the basic calculation:

(1) Any portion of a 3-wire circuit consisting of 2 ungrounded
conductors and the neutral conductor of a
4-wire, 3-phase, wye-connected system

(2) That portion consisting of nonlinear loads supplied
from a 4-wire, wye-connected, 3-phase system

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Called the local electrical supply house and they quoted me some direct burial cable, much less $$ than then MHF.

3 conductor 4/0 at 2.27/ft
1 conductor #2 at .33/ft

I will share the cut sheets when I get them.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Here is the feeder, I highlighted the one they quoted.

 

[pattenp]

That cable is UD and is not allowed to enter the structure because it only carries a USE-2 insulation rating. It needs to be terminated outside. The difference with MHF cable is it also carries a RHH/RHW-2 rating which means it is has fire resistant insulation. I assume you planned to run this cable inside the pole bare to the panel.

Edit: I see down in the options it lists RHH/RHW-2, so you need to verify what you get does have those ratings.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Good catch it does not carry the RHH/RHW-2 rating and they don't stock that so its not a option.

Guess I will do individual conductors of the link below, still several $$ less than the MHF. More work but worth the $$ savings.


http://www.stabiloy.com/NR/rdonlyre...1-8AEF294E0295/0/BW0015ASTABILOYBrandUSE2.pdf

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

OK,

Here is the start of my temporary sub panel for powering my daughters wedding in our south yard.




Question on the grounds:
A) Yes I will have two ground rods at panel in the yard wired to the larger lug on the ground bar on right side of panel
B) For the ground that goes back to the feed panel in the garage, do I add a second lug like this to the ground bar?

As discussed above this panel will then at a later date be used for my Pole Barn build.

NOTE: And yes the panel is a200Amp panel as suggested above, I am not using the GE panel I originally discussed at the start of the thread

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes u probably need an add in lug for the EGC from the feeder.

Make sure to remove any bonding screw from the neutral bar.

And if it were mine, i would add a ground bar on the left. It will help to keep your panel organized...

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

There does not seam to be a screw in the neutral bar to the panel on these newer panels. At least I don't see one.

I am just using the one ground bar at this time as I will only have 6 circuits in the temporary set up. I probably will add a second when I do the permanent install for the shop.

Got it all wired with the exception of one outlet cover not having a hinge pin in the package. Grrrrr, guess a stop at Home Depot for a replacement tomorrow is in order.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I would double check for u but i cant zoom in on the pics on that site!

Alternatively, u could use an multimeter to test for continuity between the ground and neutral bars!

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

I did test for continuity, and there is none. Should be all set

 

[borufus]

what I want to know is do they make a lug reducer from 3/0 copper to fit a 100 amp circuit breaker of is ok to crimp the cable to fit the circuit breaker. I have the cable bender to make a 90 degree turn in two inches as the crimping tool the cable bender I made from five inch channel with a eight inch turnbuckle and a nut made from six sided stock polished to avoid cutting the cable. works really nice. but the problem is the cable it to big for the circuit breaker. I can make a lug that will fit the circuit breaker and tighten on the 3/0 cable but I have reread the code and I can't find approval anyone know yea or nay
the cable was free and no I don't want to scrap it

 

[Jlarson]

Yes they do make reducing pin lugs but you have to have the correct crimper for them. Easier way is to use a Polaris ISR and splice on a bit of smaller wire to connect to the breaker.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Wedding was this last Saturday, temporary power set up worked flawlessly

No just to find a larger spool to store the 4 bound conductors on tip I build the shop.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Good job