Feel stuck in garage planning....

[jpcjguy]

Hey all,

I have been a member for almost 3 years - learned a lot - thank you everyone! I have some threads from the past about the planning of my detached garage. As is typical around here, I went from a 30x30 4-5/12 pitch roof to thinking a 36x30 with attic trusses would be better.(This forum is dangerous!)

So some back story.....
I have 3 kids - twin 6.5 year old boys, 3 year old daughter and stay at home wife. We moved from the city (.2 acres) to the deep suburbs (2 acres) almost three years ago with my plan to build a nice detached garage in the corner. I am an IT project manager and like to wrench on my 83 CJ7. Had a 79 CJ7 also, but have since sold it. So I am purely a hobbyist and like to tinker - rebuilt two go-karts/buggies (1 for the boys and 1 for me).

The last year or so, other expenses (mainly house) have come up and delayed any movement on my garage. This has now got me thinking about usage, finances, etc. I feel stuck. The jeep has sat basically since we moved since I wrenching in the driveway stinks. Time availability is tough with the family commitments - but I am not using it as an excuse - I can work on my stuff from 8:30pm to when I want to go to bed. My wife is great about that and if I give her notice on needing weekend time so she can plan. But I find myself lazy because dragging out the tools to the driveway, setting up lights,etc. worry about rain, cold, etc. Let's face it - easier to go in an enclosed garage, work on stuff and be able to just shut the doors, kill the lights, be done and leave everything where it is and go inside the house. As those of you with kids most likely know, time is sometimes in a one hour increment.

I also wonder that as the kids get older (and me), will I have the time or energy for the jeep? What if my kids are not into it? I would hate to stare at a nice detached garage that I use one a month for oil changes and yard equipment storage....
On the other hand, is not having a nice garage contributing to the lack of dedication to wrenching and working on projects? Would the kids be more inclined to show an interest if we had a decent place to work on stuff?
Should I go back to a simple garage? It would **** to be in the regret stage later because I did not do what I wanted initially...

I also watch the sales in our neighborhood and compare to what we paid. Houses are going for roughly what we paid maybe a little less - but they also don't have some upgrades that we have (renovated kitchen). I can comfortably say that adding the garage would not give me much boost at all in value (I know that ROI is very low on detached garages but you can't say that it is not wise to think about the entire financial picture).
Financially I am comfortable where we are currently but a good chunk of the garage would go on the equity line of the house. The cheap a$$ in me does't want to spend the money. To be fair - some of the quotes seem outrageous. 80-90k for a finished stick shell (no insulation, drywall, electrical) I was thinking 35k-ish for a 36x30x12 stick built shell (with concrete) would be reasonable (could be way off here).
This has me thinking of going the pole barn route to get the initial size and if I really start using it, **** it up and frame the interior, insulate and drywall then. Cheaper to start and, after validating useage, spend the extra money to finish.

There are my ramblings - sorry if it is not a well written/thought out post. I have to believe there are other guys in or have been in similar situations with similar thoughts.... ( I hope!)
I know the decision ultimately is mine, but I always enjoyed reading other posts where guys need advice on all types of topics and many of you add some really great perspectives.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[sberry]

I am not a hobby guy, tried a little of it but I got enough sht to work on as it is and it gets old. If I won the lottery would drop my tools like a hot rock, take dancing lessons and go on cruises where someone else drove the boat and the trophy wives were now widows,,,, might do that anyway.
Find a hobby that makes a little and get some return from the garage, doesn't take long to make it pay with a couple daily drivers anymore by driving them a while after the payments run out. Nothing makes it as easy to take care of stuff and do maintenance, upkeep, stage construction and repair as a garage where you can get out of the weather and look out as its pouring rain.
It really can make a house bigger etc. But skip the fancy upstairs and build a nice shell, 1 story about 36x40, do some of the staging yourself and hire an Amish crew to frame it up and get the roof on.

 

[jpcjguy]

sberry - I know where you are coming from. I was going to do the timing belt on my wife's Honda odyssey on friday. Had it all set in the driveway. ***** being on the ground, but oh well. Drained coolant, removed tire, took out fender liner, etc. Could not get the ****** crank bolt off. I read that it can be a PITA, my impact I guess did not have enough oomph. Got ticked off, started loosing daylight and ended up buttoning it up and having a friend with a real shop do it (standard labor rate). Needed inspection and transmission filter and fluid change anyway so I had to take it in regardless. Would have been nice to not worry about daylight, possible showers, etc. and have a shop that I would have the rest of the evening.
I must say - it will be nice that come tomorrow afternoon all that maintenance will be done.....

 

[KDXSR5]

I have had similar feelings as you about the ease of being able to just work on something, then walk away from it and have it the same when you come back. We have a garage attached to the house, but it is mainly for storage and my wife to park her cars in. All the big work I do on vehicles occurs at my family's shop, which is about 5 miles away.

Having kids myself and working 50-60 hour weeks, it is hard to drive those 5 miles and actually get anything productive done. Also, the shop is used to run a business, so I can't just leave a project in an unfinished state as that part of the shop will probably need used again before I finish what I am working on. This means I have several partially finished projects sitting around the shop yard, and I never seem to have the time I need to work on them productively.

I think building a shop on my house property would be very benificial for the same reasons you stated. I feel that it will help me get projects done in a more efficient manor, and actually enjoy doing projects again.

If you are like me, then no matter what you end up building you will love it and get a lot of use out of it if you still have the desire to work on projects. As long as your basic garage has the bare minimum of what you would need to do your projects (shelter, lighting, power, air) then you will enjoy doing projects in the shop, which will then lead to productivity.

Hopefully these ramblings make sense to you, haha.

 

[bikesandcars]

Build it, and bigger than that . I went from 30 x 40 to 40 x 60, it's over budget and I've been living out there working, but the possibilities for the extra space are endless...from a spare room to a soccer goal.... The cj will have room too, but it doesn't just have to be about your hobbies or cars. I say do the attic, make a play room for the kids

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[rburke65]

You are correct, this forum is addictive. I'm in a different boat, as I have no children, but when I built I debated with myself......and wife.....about building with an attic or maybe a 20'x20' porch on the front of the shop .... thought it would help break up the height of the shop. Screw it....did both and so very happy that I did. At least build in with expanability in mind.

 

[RWorth]

You have 2 choices in life, save every penny you can and die with money unspent in the bank, or live the way you want to and enjoy the money you make.

 

[jpcjguy]

RWorth - words to live by right?

 

[-Brent-]

Your kids just want to be around their dad. They might not be into Jeeps when they're older but they'll always be fond of the times they went out in yours.

 

[bikesandcars]

You have 2 choices in life, save every penny you can and die with money unspent in the bank, or live the way you want to and enjoy the money you make.

Um...that's extreme... I propose Save a little and spend a little. One extreme is no fun, the other is reckless.

Regardless...

Go as big as you can. 20 x 30 is minimum for a single car working bay. By the time you put a lift in, a blast cabinet, compressor, work bench...

 

[duwem]

Are you working with builders? I worked with about 5 before I chose one. They can help you get to reality on how it is built and what options will cost, and when your ready you just sign and start handing them money.

The more you hang out here the more you want the ultimate shop, but you need to step back and realize its no in the cards for the average guy to have a big shop with epoxy floors, a billion dollars in fancy cabinets and tools etc.


I have always worked in shops since I was a kid, so its natural to me, but its a balance of time thing with projects, family time, money etc. Its nice to work on your own stuff but I enjoy hobby stuff vs working on daily drivers.

 

[bdbecker]

Life is way too short to worry about all the future unknowns. Just build a space you can afford now and enjoy it. If you need more space in the future, build a second building or add on.

 

[zmotorsports]

Only you can answer your question about whether or not you will get fulfillment out of it, especially with your kids. For me, I can't imagine being without a workshop, and I am about to be without one for about six months while my new one is being built. My son has hung out with me in the shop since he could walk and now that he is 25 years old, we still have a great time and are constantly creating memories in the shop. He already has his sights set on his new Jeep build in the new shop once it is completed and I am tickled shitless looking forward to hanging out with him in my new shop while he builds his new Jeep.

My shop was and is my sanctuary from the BS in life. I relax when I am in the shop doing something productive. I have ran a side business for the past 20 years and it was the home base for our racing for much of that same 20+ years. I look forward to NOT working on everyone else's stuff any longer and just working on my own and my families assets in my new shop.

I also looked at it that with all of the **** out there that kids can get into these days with drugs, alcohol, etc. it would be in my best interest to keep my son occupied with something productive. I didn't care what it cost I wanted to keep his mind and body occupied with worthwhile things and learning how to work on things and take care of vehicles and such in the shop was the way I accomplished that.

I say build it, enjoy it and enjoy your time with your kids. They will remember that as they get older.

Mike.

 

[RVDan]

What's the worst case scenario? You do nothing but park in the garage? I'd be okay with that.

 

[Smoker]

I went 30 x 30 and attic trusses for a true upstairs room. The truss manufacturer gave me a girder truss option to allow a 48" wide entryway into the loft and I built an L shaped staircase for access. Its working out fantastic. If I had to do it over I would maybe add another 4'-6' but definitely go with attic trusses. it'll push the wall framing to 2x6 and the trusses are double the cost but you'll regret it if you don't. I already have an attached double and a detached triple so this is a pure build shop and will have a lift (12' ceilings). Don't overthink it.. you cant work in a shop that isn't built....My 0.02

 

[jetnow1]

Don't know prices in your area but your estimate sounds optimistic. I am building a 24 by
30 with a 12 in 12 pitch for upstairs room and it is costing me about 25K, and the building department says its a 40-50k build for the cost on the building permit. Foundation
and slab estimates were 12 to 14 thousand by themselves.

 

[brownbagg]

you talk to much, you think to much, all you need is four wall a roof and a door. My 30x24 x12 was under $5000 with slab

 

[Ray916MN]

.... I can comfortably say that adding the garage would not give me much boost at all in value (I know that ROI is very low on detached garages but you can't say that it is not wise to think about the entire financial picture).
Financially I am comfortable where we are currently but a good chunk of the garage would go on the equity line of the house. The cheap a$$ in me does't want to spend the money. ...

I think you're mischaracterizing your financial misgivings. It isn't the cheap a$$ that doesn't want to spend the money, it is the financially prudent you. Given little added property value from adding the garage, you'd probably be financially better off taking the equity loan and buying a sports car or some other extravagant toy. After you've spent the money, you will likely have more residential value out of a toy car of boat than you will out of building a shop. As opposed to locking yourself into equity line interest to pay off a shop you're somewhat ambivalent about, you're probably thinking of saving for your kid's college educations and your retirement. Don't sell your financial prudence short. Manage your finances properly and there will be plenty of time and money to have a shop later on while being able to afford to give your kids the opportunities they deserve and to have a secure retirement.

 

[matt_i]

There is also this tool. If you can wait until a downturn in the economy, prices from contractors will be better and probably will weed out some of the weaker, lower quality ones. When business is going strong, prices generally compete with whatever other work a contractor feels like they can get. IOW, if they can get $125/ft for building a house why spend time trying to get $40/sqft for a garage. Yes the garage goes up faster, etc, not truly apples-to-apples but hopefully you get the general idea.

 

[jpcjguy]

Thanks everyone for the feedback!

zmotorsports - great point of having a great space to enjoy with the kids for the long term.

Smoker - do you have a build thread? Would love to see your garage as your specs seem dead on to what I am thinking.

Ray916MN - glad you picked up on the financial aspect. I could write a check for the garage, but rather keep my investment money working for me at a higher rate of return and have the deductible aspect of the interest of the equity line. I also have about 60% equity in my house so I my mortgage is not huge by any means. Also having the "debt" is sobering and makes a goal to spend wisely pay it off quickly. (While still funding retirement, college, etc.)

matt_i - I have thought about waiting for a better economic time where builders are more "hungry" - has it's pros and cons.

bdbecker - Phased approach is definitely something I have thought about. I have the property space for it. So if I go with the depth I want (30') and then go 25 or 28 wide to start. Then if the use of it goes way up and I need the space, I can add another 10-12' wide section later. At this point the spending is justified. But that goes completely opposite of the "do it once right the first time" principle. Lord knows I have should have followed that on my Jeep and gone to 1 ton axles right away as opposed to building stock, then upgrading to dana 44s, and then the jump to 1 tons. Would have been way cheaper.

 

[bdbecker]

...But that goes completely opposite of the "do it once right the first time" principle. Lord knows I have should have followed that on my Jeep and gone to 1 ton axles right away as opposed to building stock, then upgrading to dana 44s, and then the jump to 1 tons. Would have been way cheaper.

We are cut from the same cloth.

It took me a long time to figure out that that the "do it once, do it right" mentality is good as long as it doesn't prevent you from moving forward. Sometimes you have to compromise and/or implement temporary solutions because that is just how life works.

I would also point out that if you had waited around to be able to afford built 1 ton axles, how much wheeling would you have missed out on because you were sitting on stockers? How much enjoyable tinkering are you missing out on by not having a space (even a modest one) to do it in?

 

[jpcjguy]

So I did just talk to a local detached garage builder. For a 36x30x12 with attic truss, staircase, asphalt shingle roof, 1 man door, 1 overhead, vinyl siding, no electrical, 4" monolithic slab (he said case on piers? not sure what that is exactly) with 3500 psi, 1 foot overhang all around(eve and gable) in vinyl trim for $58K. That is $53.7 a square foot. To be fair this was an over the phone conversation.

 

[jpcjguy]

I would also point out that if you had waited around to be able to afford built 1 ton axles, how much wheeling would you have missed out on because you were sitting on stockers? How much enjoyable tinkering are you missing out on by not having a space (even a modest one) to do it in?

Great point!

 

[Ray916MN]

...

Ray916MN - glad you picked up on the financial aspect. I could write a check for the garage, but rather keep my investment money working for me at a higher rate of return and have the deductible aspect of the interest of the equity line. I also have about 60% equity in my house so I my mortgage is not huge by any means. Also having the "debt" is sobering and makes a goal to spend wisely pay it off quickly. (While still funding retirement, college, etc.)

.....

Great! Sounds like you're doing financially well

OTOH, you're financial rationale is a bit wonky.

If your investment money is working for you at a higher rate of return and you're confident that it will continue to do so, then financially you should be taking the entire HELOC and investing it, rather than letting it sit. You are not taking maximum advantage of the investment opportunities you have. Leverage to increase income and ultimately assets is totally rationale.

If you're not confident in being able to earn a higher rate of return than the interest on HELOC net of the tax deduction, then the notion of financing a non-essential purchase out of the HELOC to keep money invested is imprudent.

Investing involves risk, while debt acquired surely must be paid. When thinking about buying non-essentials it is best to maintain a discipline of not taking on borrowing costs, unless you are really sure the money you borrow can yield higher returns than the cost. Some level of leverage is acceptable, but leveraging essentials (we all need somewhere to live) to buy non-essentials under the rationale of maximizing returns is a twisted bit of rationale in my book. It sounds like you don't need the HELOC to build your garage. If this is the case, then decide on building it without using the HELOC. If this is not the case, then watch out for using the HELOC to rationalize a less than great financial decision.

 

[jpcjguy]

Great! Sounds like you're doing financially well

OTOH, you're financial rationale is a bit wonky.

If your investment money is working for you at a higher rate of return and you're confident that it will continue to do so, then financially you should be taking the entire HELOC and investing it, rather than letting it sit. You are not taking maximum advantage of the investment opportunities you have. Leverage to increase income and ultimately assets is totally rationale.

If you're not confident in being able to earn a higher rate of return than the interest on HELOC net of the tax deduction, then the notion of financing a non-essential purchase out of the HELOC to keep money invested is imprudent.

Investing involves risk, while debt acquired surely must be paid. When thinking about buying non-essentials it is best to maintain a discipline of not taking on borrowing costs, unless you are really sure the money you borrow can yield higher returns than the cost. Some level of leverage is acceptable, but leveraging essentials (we all need somewhere to live) to buy non-essentials under the rationale of maximizing returns is a twisted bit of rationale in my book. It sounds like you don't need the HELOC to build your garage. If this is the case, then decide on building it without using the HELOC. If this is not the case, then watch out for using the HELOC to rationalize a less than great financial decision.

You are absolutely correct on the rationale being a little wonky. But as you know, human rationale is that way. I view it as the same scenario of people who get large tax refunds - while it might feel good, you pretty much loaned the government money for free for the year. But with the human element added - some people have a hard time saving money over the year, but the refund *can* be a sort of "savings plan" - if you take that money and put it away. Silly rationale - but if it works for you.

Funny that you mention taking money on the HELOC and investing it for greater return. I did that 2 years ago for 1 year. Bought an income fund that was paying me 15% and the rate on the HELOC was 1.99 (1 year introductory rate). While I did make some money, I knew I was also playing with price risk. I ended up selling a hair more than I paid - so I made the spread, wrote of the interest and made a little on price. Have not done it since because the spread is not worth the price risk. Hindsight being what it is, I should have maxed out the HELOC!