Fence Repair Situation & Questions

[L5wolvesf]

I need some input on a repair job I need to get started on – hopefully soon and hopefully not too expensively. Apology in advance for the length of this post – I’m trying to cover as much of the situation as possible.

Background: My garage was built by the previous owner of the property who was a masonry contractor. The garage and one property line wall are cinder block and he seems to have done a very good job and I am very happy with those. However, he also did some things with wood – I don’t think he knew as much about wood as he did concrete etc. There is a wood fence along one side of the property starting at one corner of the block wall. The wood 4x posts (not sure if they are pressure treated) were set in concrete.

During a few different wind / rain storms over that last couple years a few sections of the fence have been blown over. This fence surrounds part of my outside storage and keeps things not looking like storage and keeps eyes off of it.

The problem(s):
1 – That side of the property is on the down slope – barely any slope really, but when water does flow it goes that way. There was also a timed sprinkler system close to a portion of the fence.

2 – A portion of the posts, almost 2 ft at one point, were buried in dirt – above the concrete. If the fence was built around the time the house/garage were (1998) it’s been in wet dirt for about 20 years. Now only stumps are protruding (see pics).

3 – Not sure if this contributed or not but as I did some digging I found chunks of concrete and other things. As if they had been buried there vs. hauling them off to the dump.

Getting the posts and concrete bases (10 of them) out just ain’t gonna happen. Digging out what I have so far has been a BIG PITA. Bringing in digging equipment is likely gonna cost too much and there are obstacles (septic tank, storage shed, trees, etc.). So, how do I deal with re-erecting the fence?

Solution(s)?: I have a couple thoughts based on some materials I already have and want to know if they are workable or if they need to be adjusted or if there is another way.

1 – Heavily splint / patch the old posts together with a combination of wood (2x4s ?) and/or metal braces of some sort. I have access to at least 3 sides of the posts. The neighbor’s side would require me going on their property, which should not a problem.

1a - One post has only about 8 inches left above ground and is in really bad shape.

2 – Create a patch / splint using concrete poured into stacked square blocks (see pics).

3 – Some combination of those 2 above.

4 – This doesn’t need to be pretty since it is on the back corner of the property.

Note: the posts will not be buried again, and if the concrete portion ends up higher than it currently is now I’m good with that.

Questions, answers, thoughts, experiences, pictures, links, etc. are welcome and appreciated. Thank you.

 

[lakeroadster]

Dig new holes, in line with existing, but offset about 2-4 feet, install new posts.

Use pressure treated posts with a CCA of .60 or higher.

The poles will outlast you.

 

[The Cobbler]

anything other than full post replacement is a band-aid solution, and probably more aggravation in the end than just replacing all the posts.
around here there's people that just dig the hole & install your posts. look for someone to do that in your area.
being in AZ you don't need to worry about frost heave, so half your battle is won already LOL

 

[Marctrees]

This -

Dig new holes, in line with existing, but offset about 2-4 feet, install new posts.

Use pressure treated posts with a CCA of .60 or higher.

The poles will outlast you.

 

[Marctrees]

May be difficult to get CCA in AZ, especially the higher treatment levels.

Will not find at BigBox, need to find an "industrial" or "farm" wood treater.

I see TSC has some CC stuff, but it does not state the treat level.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...eated-wood-post-4-in-5-in-x-8-ft?cm_vc=IOPDP1

.60 is best, but you may have to settle for .40 due to availability.

Marc

 

[73fxe]

If You are setting the new posts with concrete make sure that the top of the concrete slopes away from the post. If it's a wet area and the post sets in water it will rot or swell up from water.

 

[kbs2244]

The one problem everybody does with concrete and wood fence posts is setting the post into a bed of wet concrete at the bottom of the hole.
A wood post with an exposed top will have rain drain through it to the bottom.
But if you have set the post into wet concrete it cannot drain out the bottom of the post.
You have created a vase that traps the water and thus the post rots.

If you think you must use concrete, use it as a collar at ground level to shield a well tamped post/hole from rain.

If you want to know how to put a highly stressed post into a hole the correct way, watch a power co crew.
They do millions and never use concrete.

 

[L5wolvesf]

Dig new holes, in line with existing, but offset about 2-4 feet, install new posts.

Use pressure treated posts with a CCA of .60 or higher.

The poles will outlast you.

I had a feeling I might have to dig new holes, but why offset about 2-4 feet vs. within a foot or so? If they outlast me I won’t be here to know it.

Thanks for the CCA info.

anything other than full post replacement is a band-aid solution, and probably more aggravation in the end than just replacing all the posts.
around here there's people that just dig the hole & install your posts. look for someone to do that in your area.
being in AZ you don't need to worry about frost heave, so half your battle is won already LOL

You’re probably right about the aggravation. I can dig the holes fairly easily now that I’ve been doing my digging exercises. No frost issue to speak of but it does get relatively cold here in Northern AZ compared to Southern. Thanks

May be difficult to get CCA in AZ, especially the higher treatment levels.

Will not find at BigBox, need to find an "industrial" or "farm" wood treater.
I see TSC has some CC stuff, but it does not state the treat level.

.60 is best, but you may have to settle for .40 due to availability.
Marc

We have a TSC here as of a year or 2 ago. I’ll go see what they have. Thanks for checking.

If You are setting the new posts with concrete make sure that the top of the concrete slopes away from the post. If it's a wet area and the post sets in water it will rot or swell up from water.

The prior owner seems to have eventually figured that out. A wood fence by the side street is sloped. Thanks

The one problem everybody does with concrete and wood fence posts is setting the post into a bed of wet concrete at the bottom of the hole.
A wood post with an exposed top will have rain drain through it to the bottom.
But if you have set the post into wet concrete it cannot drain out the bottom of the post.
You have created a vase that traps the water and thus the post rots.

If you think you must use concrete, use it as a collar at ground level to shield a well tamped post/hole from rain.

If you want to know how to put a highly stressed post into a hole the correct way, watch a power co crew.
They do millions and never use concrete.

Thank you, this is interesting had not thought about the rain getting in from the top. I haven’t seen a wood utility pole being set since I got here – they replace damaged ones with aluminum or at least it looks like AL. I’ll take a walk up a few blocks and check one out – everything on our streets is underground. No concrete would save some steps and a few bucks. Are they just ‘super-tamped’, like with a powered tamper? Would I put gravel at the bottom of the hole to aid in draining?

 

[Lynden]

Have you considered removing the posts and re-using the existing concrete foundations? If the posts are rotted below grade they may come out easily or you may have to do a little drilling with a large spade bit and an extension. **** the pieces of each post out of the hole in the foundation with your shop vacuum. Plane the bottom of the new post to fit the hole. Treat the planed areas with wood preservative. Place the new post in the hole and grout around it if necessary.

https://www.doityourself.com/forum/...ng-existing-concrete-ball-new-fence-post.html

https://www.google.com/search?clien......0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.jCXRlE9HTaE

 

[cvairwerks]

Easy way to pull the broken off post is drive a 1” or so diameter welded eye lag bolt about 8” deep in the post remanent then use a cherry picker or a beam with a wrapped chain and railroad jacks to pull them.
I just did this with a pair of posts, but mine were not broken off. A couple of wraps with a chain and the hoist got them out, tho it was groaning a bit. One post was set in a column of concrete about 18” in diameter and 4 feet deep.

 

[lakeroadster]

...why offset about 2-4 feet vs. within a foot or so?

Why not?

If you're digging in virgin soil you will be less likely to hit concrete / debris from the original fence installation.

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

I have a buddy who worked for the electric utility, he always says they drilled/dug the hole, then put the pole in thee hole and ALL the excavated material went back into the hole. It was compacted so that the top of the fill was only a couple of inches above grade. It took a lot of tamping, but never had a pole come out of the ground.

By the way, his formula for the depth is the 10% of overall length of the pole, PLUS 2 feet. A 50' pole would go down 5' + 2' for a total of 7'.



.

 

[gewf631]

Easy way to pull the broken off post is drive a 1” or so diameter welded eye lag bolt about 8” deep in the post remanent then use a cherry picker or a beam with a wrapped chain and railroad jacks to pull them.
I just did this with a pair of posts, but mine were not broken off. A couple of wraps with a chain and the hoist got them out, tho it was groaning a bit. One post was set in a column of concrete about 18” in diameter and 4 feet deep.

That's roughly what I've done on a dozen or so posts that have broken off over the years.

This discussion from last fall covers many of the same issues
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356272

 

[L5wolvesf]

Have you considered removing the posts and re-using the existing concrete foundations?

Easy way to pull the broken off post is drive a 1” or so diameter welded eye lag bolt about 8” deep in the post remanent then use a cherry picker or a beam with a wrapped chain and railroad jacks to pull them.
I just did this with a pair of posts, but mine were not broken off. A couple of wraps with a chain and the hoist got them out, tho it was groaning a bit. One post was set in a column of concrete about 18” in diameter and 4 feet deep.

I’m going to try removing the old posts since it seems fairly simple, I have the tools (jacks etc.) for it and it seems least strenuous – at the moment. I try one and see.

If you're digging in virgin soil you will be less likely to hit concrete / debris from the original fence installation.

Oh, I thought it might be something more technical than that. Thanks

I have a buddy who worked for the electric utility, he always says they drilled/dug the hole, then put the pole in the hole and ALL the excavated material went back into the hole. It was compacted so that the top of the fill was only a couple of inches above grade. It took a lot of tamping, but never had a pole come out of the ground.

By the way, his formula for the depth is the 10% of overall length of the pole, PLUS 2 feet. A 50' pole would go down 5' + 2' for a total of 7'.

If I have to dig new holes I’ll keep this in mind. Thank you

This discussion from last fall covers many of the same issues
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356272

Thank you for the link it helped.

 

[kbs2244]

Re: how they tamped.
It used to be big guys with what was called a "tamping bar"
It was a wrought iron bar. 6 foot long, 1 1/4 inch di, with a 3 inch wide chisel on one end a 3 inch mushroom on the other.
It weighed apx 30 lbs.

Now they use the hydraulic jack hammers.

Yes, they pack it, mixed with golf ball sized rocks, tighter then when it came out of the hole.

It seems to work.

 

[bczygan]

Re: how they tamped.
It used to be big guys with what was called a "tamping bar"
It was a wrought iron bar. 6 foot long, 1 1/4 inch di, with a 3 inch wide chisel on one end a 3 inch mushroom on the other.
It weighed apx 30 lbs.

Now they use the hydraulic jack hammers.

Yes, they pack it, mixed with golf ball sized rocks, tighter then when it came out of the hole.

It seems to work.

It would bother me to leave the old post and concrete remnants.

Harbor Freight has the tampers. I just bought one.

Bill

 

[Marctrees]

Why would one take the time to remove the old post bases? rather than just plant posts between as Lakeroadster said?

ONLY reason I can see to "need" to replace posts in original location is if the fence was built with "panels" basically needing posts where they splice.

Otherwise, no reason to remove old posts below grade.

Less'n your lookin fer stuff to do to keep busy.

The ground is where stuff goes when it's dead, like your old posts.





Marc

 

[theoldwizard1]

At my son's house we removed over 30 PT 4x4 posts set in concrete and at least a dozen galvanized steel fence pipe post also set in concrete.

Getting the posts and concrete bases (10 of them) out just ain’t gonna happen.

You have to make it happen !
Time to use your brain and less brawn. Some digging is required especially if the post are rotten or broke of at ground level.

1) Use a hi-lift "farm" jack. example

2) Build something like this (my design) or this or this

First tip. For both cases, grasping the post/concrete footer is the biggest problem. If the wood post is solid you should be able to drill through it near the bottom an place a large bolt through it so the chain won't slip. If there is no good wood left, you will have to dig around the concrete deep enough to get the chain wrapped around it.

Second tip. You want the soil to be be saturated. Not wet, SATURATED ! put a hose on trickle the night before.

For #2, hooking to a vehicle works faster, but you can do it with a come-a-long as long as it is well anchored.


EDIT: This lump of concrete on the bottom of the post weights over 200 lbs !