Final electrical inspection fail

[Tarheel Slim]

I had my final electrical inspection today and did not pass because i need a low voltage starter for my lathe and mill,and the double pole switch for the compressor wasnt HP rated,so im a bit bummed out.Can someone explain to me how to go about this correction,both motors are Leeson 1.5 HP,1725 RPM farm duty motors,i will post a pic of what i have set up. Im hoping someone can explain it to me,thanks.

 

[larry_g]

Perty sure someone will be along to tell you to store the equipment out of the building till the inspection passes.

That said do you have any idea what code that the inspector is referring to on the lo-voltage starter? I know that we use motor starters on higher HP motors, but not that low of power. Not sure what Canada does.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[The Cobbler]

is the inspector meaning a magnetic starter for the lathe?
re the compressor, wouldnt a cord & plug with the onboard pressure switch ( assuming it has on/off) work?

 

[Tarheel Slim]

Here a few pics of what i have ,the switches on the wall in each picture are to shut power off to lathe and the mill,they are 20A double pole switches,the compressor just need its switch replaced with a HP rated switch.But the low voltage starter i need to figure out.

 

[The Cobbler]

nice Standard Modern there . what does it have for a switch?

 

[ddawg16]

A common mistake people make is to use the Amps for a motor vs HP when selecting the right switch or breaker.

On the starter, find one rated for the HP but uses 120Vac to activate.

Here is an example of what you are looking for. This one is way too big, but it was the first one to pop up

https://www.gamut.com/p/square-d-de...MIifnh4ezu1gIVETwbCh1B1ApAEAQYAyABEgLaH_D_BwE

 

[PT Doc]

Leviton makes motor rated switches. Look at MS302. Will likely fit in same box you have.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Cant speak for CEC code but in the US, as said above, any switch or disconnect for a motor needs to have a HP rating that is at least the same rating as the motor.

For 3HP and smaller motors, cord and plug connected is fine and can act as the disconnecting means. Above 3HP, you will have a hard time finding a plug and outler combo that is HP rated so hardwiring is necessary.

Do these motors not have an on/off switch?

 

[Tarheel Slim]

I should have put the lathe,mill, and compressor in after this inspection. Maybe the cord and plug would work i have to check code.Cobbler im not too sure what the magnetic starter is,could you explain?and what do you mean by the switch on the Standard Modern lathe? Yes the motors have an on off switch,lathe mill and compressor,the compressor is an easy fix,just buy a HP rated switch,i will take some pics of the on off switch for each of these tools.The inspector sure was interested in the old tractors , engines and old stuff in my shop,but my not passing inspection really ruined my day,just have to do what meats code at this point,not moving the stuff out of the shop at this point,although i thought of it.couple pics of some old tractors for anyone who cares,thanks for the all the quick replys guys.

 

[klassenl]

I should have put the lathe,mill, and compressor in after this inspection.

Yep.

 

[walta]

Fitting the lathe and mill with low voltage controls will not be ease or cheep. The price really clime if you need forward and reverse functions.

The problem the inspector has is, if the machine is operating and the power should fail when power is restored the current controls are likely to restart the machine without any input from the operator, also he likely want the buttons you touch to operate the machine to be powered by less than 48 volts so the operator is less likely to be shocked.

I believe if you install the appropriate cords and plugs on the mill and lathe that will put them outside his purview, since motors are less than 3 horse power each. Ask the inspector if he will find this solution acceptable.

What size is the compressors motor? If it is 3 HP or less a cord and plug should work.

Walta

 

[Matt Matt]

First, you probably should’ve not place the machines for the inspection.
Second, get your inspector to specify what low-voltage is. 24 V, 12 V? Or 120 V, 240 V?

Under the electrical code, any non-portable machine, needs to have a main electrical starter that drops out, under power loss, fixed to the machine. This is what I think he is referring to.

If they are single phase 3hp or less 120 V/240 V then the plug can be considered a disconnect. If either machine exceeds 3 hp single phase, they should be hardwired and each have their own disconnect. But, I don’t think either of them are.

 

[ddawg16]

OP....single phase or 3 phase?

 

[Matt Matt]

OP....single phase or 3 phase?

If you followed any of his other posts, you would know that he is on a residential property, single phase and they’re both on 20 amp 240v breaker‘s. My guess is that both motors are under 3 hp. The reason I’m guessing that, because he had an $80/h electrician in there, and they’re 20 amp circuits feeding the machines.

If they were three phase on a residential property, The same rules apply in Canada as they do in the US. You’re not allowed to “distribute” more than 150 V to ground. So, when you have exceeded 150 V to ground, A whole bunch of new rules apply. Most residential inspectors won’t touch this with a 100 foot stick.

This is technically why The transformer is buried within a fluorescent lighting fixture, this is why a VFD is supposed to be in a protected steel box mounted to any machine, this is why A rotary phase converter should be portable. On a residential property 480 V plugs are not allowed to have 480 V in them fixed to the building. Since most rotary phase converter‘s have a wild leg of +208 V to ground, this too is not allowed to be “distributed”, or even attached to a building that is considered residential.

http://machineryequipmentonline.com...t/uploads/2015/11/Voltage-Regulation-0755.jpg

 

[mm08822]

I had my final electrical inspection today and did not pass because i need a low voltage starter for my lathe and mill,and the double pole switch for the compressor wasnt HP rated,so im a bit bummed out.Can someone explain to me how to go about this correction,both motors are Leeson 1.5 HP,1725 RPM farm duty motors,i will post a pic of what i have set up. Im hoping someone can explain it to me,thanks.

Aside from motor O/L protection, a 3-wire motor starter provides low-voltage drop-out protection and no re-start upon power restoration. For the OP's equipment this is a great safety protection to the operator. I didn't specifically find this requirement in the NEC and have no idea for CEC. The only thing I came across was automatic resetting O/L's aren't permitted by NEC if it creates an automatic re-start.
I have portable and fixed equipment with 3-wire control.
I have portable equipment with maintained switch 2-wire control.

As for the low-voltage control circuit requirement, that again is not dictated by NEC. CEC? In the US, coil voltages can go anywhere from 24 to 600vac. Unless a control xformer is used, these higher voltages are sometimes found. (No, I would not want to work on a 480 or 600 vac control circuit hot.)

It is probably easier to to make these fixes to your hard-wired equipment as the safety benefit is for you. If you otherwise remove the equipment before inspection, you are just short-changing yourself, your kid, friend, etc. of some good safety features. Probably more work to remove, hide, then re-install.

As previously stated, 2-3 HP rated switches are easy to find and replacement is quick and easy. Over 3 hp, use a HP rated disconnect.

 

[mm08822]

If you followed any of his other posts, you would know that he is on a residential property, single phase and they’re both on 20 amp 240v breaker‘s. My guess is that both motors are under 3 hp. The reason I’m guessing that, because he had an $80/h electrician in there, and they’re 20 amp circuits feeding the machines.

If they were three phase on a residential property, The same rules apply in Canada as they do in the US. You’re not allowed to “distribute” more than 150 V to ground. So, when you have exceeded 150 V to ground, A whole bunch of new rules apply. Most residential inspectors won’t touch this with a 100 foot stick.

This is technically why The transformer is buried within a fluorescent lighting fixture, this is why a VFD is supposed to be in a protected steel box mounted to any machine, this is why A rotary phase converter should be portable. On a residential property 480 V plugs are not allowed to have 480 V in them fixed to the building. Since most rotary phase converter‘s have a wild leg of +208 V to ground, this too is not allowed to be “distributed”, or even attached to a building that is considered residential.

http://machineryequipmentonline.com...t/uploads/2015/11/Voltage-Regulation-0755.jpg

Most people on here are not playing connect the dots between threads. They are typically responding to the information provided by the OP in his original post creating this thread.

What does billing rate have to do with anything?

Granted, 120/240vac single phase is the predominate residential service voltage, but there are instances where 277/480vac is used – maybe the extra large McMansion. 150v to ground issue may be true for CEC, but where in the NEC is that stated? Any inspector who does commercial and residential inspections would handle this w/o issue. What are the new NEC rules that apply?

If 480v NEMA rated/configured receptacles are installed, they must have 480 v supplied to them. If you don’t have 480v available, you don’t use 480v recepts.

 

[Tarheel Slim]

Im going to talk with the inspector on Monday and ask him some questions.I think i have a starter for the lathe,i will dig it out today and post a pic to make sure it is indeed a starter,it did come with the lathe when we purchased it years ago.

 

[Tarheel Slim]

Found the starter for the lathe but its 3 phase so im still the same situation at this point,the local electrical supply store mentioned this inspector being a bit tough.This inspection fail comes at a bad time, i should be installing my wood stove in the shop not dealing with this ****.

 

[Radix2]

I would ask if it would be acceptable to simply put a cord on those devices, put in wall outlets and call it good. You have tons of other corded equipment of a similar HP without this nonsense. For occasional personal usage the value of a starter is almost nothing.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Found the starter for the lathe but its 3 phase so im still the same situation at this point,the local electrical supply store mentioned this inspector being a bit tough.This inspection fail comes at a bad time, i should be installing my wood stove in the shop not dealing with this ****.

Depending on the setup, you may be able to use a 3 phase starter with single phase service.

 

[Matt Matt]

Most people on here are not playing connect the dots between threads. They are typically responding to the information provided by the OP in his original post creating this thread.

What does billing rate have to do with anything?

Granted, 120/240vac single phase is the predominate residential service voltage, but there are instances where 277/480vac is used – maybe the extra large McMansion. 150v to ground issue may be true for CEC, but where in the NEC is that stated? Any inspector who does commercial and residential inspections would handle this w/o issue. What are the new NEC rules that apply?

If 480v NEMA rated/configured receptacles are installed, they must have 480 v supplied to them. If you don’t have 480v available, you don’t use 480v recepts.

Even though this is off-topic, where does it state in the NEC 480 V plug cannot be used as a 240 V plug? Better yet, where does it say under the NEC that a stove plug in a industrial situation cannot be used as a three phase plug for it’s rated voltage?

I have ARKTITE CROUSE-HINDS(AR-348,APJ 3475) plugs in my shop that are rated for 250–600 V, they are rated for 30amps. What horsepower are they rated for as a disconnect under the NEC? Or are these even NEC approved?

Some higher amperage extension cords that I use have an HBL5100PS1W/CS1W for temporary generators.

Most household/residential wiring is not generally rated for over 300 V. So I’m wondering where under the NEC it states that you are allowed to have for general purpose household more than 300 V on any given line/circuit?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Even though this is off-topic, where does it state in the NEC 480 V plug cannot be used as a 240 V plug? Better yet, where does it say under the NEC that a stove plug in a industrial situation cannot be used as a three phase plug for it’s rated voltage?

I have ARKTITE CROUSE-HINDS(AR-348,APJ 3475) plugs in my shop that are rated for 250–600 V, they are rated for 30amps. What horsepower are they rated for as a disconnect under the NEC? Or are these even NEC approved?

Some higher amperage extension cords that I use have an HBL5100PS1W/CS1W for temporary generators.

The NEC doesnt give HP ratings for plugs and outlets. That is something that is governed by the manufacture. And the NEC doesnt approve devices either. You are thinking of NRTLs- nationally recognized testing laboratories.

As far as HP ratings go for plugs and outlets, standard NEMA plugs arent rated for more than about 3HP.

If someone wants to wire their 5HP compressor with a cord and plug they would have to use a pin and sleeve plug like the one you have because they are typically rated for more HP than nema plugs.

As far as your particular plug, I would have to look it up via manufacturer website.

Most household/residential wiring is not generally rated for over 300 V. So I’m wondering where under the NEC it states that you are allowed to have for general purpose household more than 300 V on any given line/circuit?

Most household wiring?

You do realize that NM-b such as Romex, is rated for 600v?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Looked through the catalog. Could not find a HP rating for your receptacles and plugs.

http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...inds/resources/catalog-sections/p_section.pdf

 

[mm08822]

Even though this is off-topic, where does it state in the NEC 480 V plug cannot be used as a 240 V plug? Better yet, where does it say under the NEC that a stove plug in a industrial situation cannot be used as a three phase plug for it’s rated voltage?

I have ARKTITE CROUSE-HINDS(AR-348,APJ 3475) plugs in my shop that are rated for 250–600 V, they are rated for 30amps. What horsepower are they rated for as a disconnect under the NEC? Or are these even NEC approved?

Some higher amperage extension cords that I use have an HBL5100PS1W/CS1W for temporary generators.

Most household/residential wiring is not generally rated for over 300 V. So I’m wondering where under the NEC it states that you are allowed to have for general purpose household more than 300 V on any given line/circuit?

Read nec 406.8 Non-interchangeability. It explains mix and match is not permitted. I would bet the cec has a similar common sense requirement.

As for your stove example, that is my point. The plug and recept voltage, amperage, # poles,# wires need to match the circuit/load requirements. Industrial location or not is irrelivant.

As for the arctite pin/sleeve plug/recepts you list, they are not part of the standard nema configs being referenced in the context of this thread. Most residential applications could not afford the cost of pin and sleeve connection, so from an economic standpoint they are out of the question. These are specifically made to serve industrial environments.
However, mfrs dimension/placement of these component connection points to also prevent interchangeability. As for their hp/amperage/voltage ratings they are certainly available. I'll give you the link later tonite. No mystery there.

As Wylie already splained you, nec does not specify component rating but rather the mfr who does and then submits their product for testing to get listing and labeling for the claimed ratings.

Building wiring is predominately 600v rated. I will send you a screen shot tonite from a book copyrighted 1963 that shows this. This is nothing new. We are not discussing bell wire, signal wire, or communications wiring in this thread. So what are you referring to?

You use the word "distribution" and and then apply that to the smallest branch circuits permitted. Wrong context. I dont think grandma is plugging her table lamp into an arctite recpt.

Just to be certain we have the correct usage of acronyms, I am refferring to the Canadian Electrical Code an the National Electrical Code - and not the clown electrical code or no electrical code.

And your requested code article references to justify your vast knowledge of both codes are stated where?

 

[yeldogt]

Does the inspector want the typical motor start switch installed .... the kind that comes with almost every 220v tool ... you just hit the red switch to turn it off and it will not restart if the power fails?

IMO -- you should want.

Don't remember being very expensive .... was able to pick up a couple at Grizzy many years ago for not very much.

 

[Tarheel Slim]

I need a mag starter for the lathe and mill,the lathe has a starter on it, its a small Square D,watertight box,today inspector said to turn the lathe on and kill the power at the breaker and turn it back on again if it starts back up i need to get a mag starter on it,how do i go about selecting the correct starter for my lathe and mill ??the guy at the elecrtical supply said its not his job to figure this out for me,i see his point so im asking for some help here,thanks.

 

[Tarheel Slim]

this is for single phase set up,both lathe and mill have Leeson 1.5 hp 1725 rpm motors,think they are a farm duty motor.I have each of them on its own 20A breaker,the F.L.A on the mill motor is 17.2A being on a 20A breaker do i need to upsize the 20A breakers?they are both powered with 110V. I will include some pics of how its set up currently,thanks.

 

[ard]

the lathe has a starter on it, its a small Square D,watertight box,

Give us a part number.

today inspector said to turn the lathe on and kill the power at the breaker and turn it back on again if it starts back up i need to get a mag starter on it,

Well, when you DID THAT WHAT HAPPENS???????????

how do i go about selecting the correct starter for my lathe and mill ??

1.5HP motor, 230V? Prolly all you need to know.

Still, is there a mag starter on the lathe or not??

the guy at the elecrtical supply said its not his job to figure this out for me.

Hmm. tru dat.

Sure folks will have some (cheap) advice. I looked up some Elimia ones on Amazon Prime, about $100 per. Prolly be cheaper ones so I will not opine...

 

[mm08822]

this is for single phase set up,both lathe and mill have Leeson 1.5 hp 1725 rpm motors,think they are a farm duty motor.I have each of them on its own 20A breaker,the F.L.A on the mill motor is 17.2A being on a 20A breaker do i need to upsize the 20A breakers?they are both powered with 110V. I will include some pics of how its set up currently,thanks.

17.2a FLA motor on a 20a cb is very, very likely to cause tripping on startups. I'm not sure what the unloaded torque for each is but a much smaller % of 1.5 hp. Have these been started before on a 20a 120v ckt?
Run under load for any length of time?
Are each of these on their own dedicated ckt? If yes, you could increase the cb size if needed as these would be dedicated motor ckts.
Another option is to rewire to 240vac if the motors are dual voltage and it doesn't snowball into modifying many other items on each machine. At 240v you could use a smaller starter size NEMA size 0 instead of NEMA size 1 at 120vac.

What was there previously to control the motors? Are the speeds mechanically changed off of a common line shaft running at a single fixed speed?

Was there any further discussion on the control voltage used for the starter control circuit?

Can you open the starter enclosure you have and take a few pics of it? And each motor nameplate?

 

[Tarheel Slim]

The lathe has a ,Square D Manual Motor Starting Switch,NEMA 4 ENCL Watertight,TYPE KW-2H Class 2150 SER A.Resistance rating 250 VAC 30A 600 VAC 20A,I tried what the inspector said to do and when i turned the breaker off and then back on the lathe started back up .Just need to figure out what i need exactly for the mag starter,model number is size.I looked at some on Amazon couple days ago,since there a various mag starters i thought id look into it a bit more.Need to get this final inspection right this time.

 

[mm08822]

Ok, so the lathe never had any speed control - just on/off through the manual switch.
Is that red-knobbed switch a drum switch for changing direction? FWD-OFF_REV?

What about the mill?
What about the q's reply #29?

 

[Tarheel Slim]

I have used the lathe for some light duty work the mill with the 17.2 FLAmotor i have not used yet it starts fine runs they are each on their own separate circuit 20 A breaker ,speeds are mechanically changed on the lathe and the mill.

 

[Tarheel Slim]

Got some pics of the mill motor nameplate and the start switch for the mill has stop forward and reverse,yes that is a drum switch on lathe.I wired the lathe mill and compressor myself,never had a problem with them in the last shop used them for 12 years with no issues,i had some help with rough in.

 

[mm08822]

You still need to post the internal pics from the starter enclosure you previously showed.

I see at as 2 options:
1) buy a full voltage non-reversing size 1 starter in a nema 1 enclosure and keep the drum switches
2) buy a full voltage reversing size 1 starter in a nema 1 enclosure and get rid of the drum switches

It would be smart to get the same starters if possible and possibly with start/stop pb's in the enclosure front or Forward/Off/Reverse for reversing starter. If not you could remote mount the buttons in a separate enclosure.

Start looking at ebay.ca. Prices and offerings are all over the place.

 

[Tarheel Slim]

Took the cover plate off heres the pics,T1 has black and T3 has the white wires.

 

[American Locomotive]

I have never seen small old Bridgeports or Lathes like that with a mag starter. They always have the factory reversing drum switch.

However, at 1.5HP, you are over the rating of that switch for 120v. But at near 18 FLA with your motors, you're really pushing the limits of the 20A circuit as well. I'm really not sure why your electrician would have wired your equipment for 120v, instead of 240v with motors that large.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I would definitely rewire the motors for 240v.

 

[Norcal]

The SQ D "starter" is just a motor rated 3 pole switch, drum switches rarely have O/L protection inside. Get a mag starter & take the equipment out until after the inspection.

 

[mm08822]

OP, in Post #18, the lefthand pic shows a motor starter in NEMA 1 enclosure. That is what the pics are needed of - with the cover off.

 

[yeldogt]

Just google "grizzly tools starter switch" -- get one for the motor size. Too bad you are not near me ... Have two sitting around.

The things you have are just switches