Final electrical inspection fail

[matt_i]

,I tried what the inspector said to do and when i turned the breaker off and then back on the lathe started back up.

Wow, huge can of worms here opened unnecessarily....those drum-type 3 pole switches have been used since the 1930s on bridgeports...

Respectfully I would say its going to be easier to rig your machines out, call for inspection, if there are questions, say "suffering from *** terminal illness, sold all of my machines" and get your inspection pass. Then move everything back in.

Otherwise the door is now opened to 240:120 control transformers, needing neutral wire for 120vac for controls, or 24vac transformer, or 24vdc power supply. Will need reversing starter with aux contacts to inhibit the "other direction". Need non-maintained start-stop pushbuttons (I personally am a fan of Allen Bradley good used 800T series - 30mm switches) and a 3-wire control circuit for each machine...so many things to buy and integrate just to satisfy an inspection...let the inspection be of the structure and go about your own business later.

 

[yeldogt]

Wow, huge can of worms here opened unnecessarily....those drum-type 3 pole switches have been used since the 1930s on bridgeports...

Respectfully I would say its going to be easier to rig your machines out, call for inspection, if there are questions, say "suffering from *** terminal illness, sold all of my machines" and get your inspection pass. Then move everything back in.

Otherwise the door is now opened to 240:120 control transformers, needing neutral wire for 120vac for controls, or 24vac transformer, or 24vdc power supply. Will need reversing starter with aux contacts to inhibit the "other direction". Need non-maintained start-stop pushbuttons (I personally am a fan of Allen Bradley good used 800T series - 30mm switches) and a 3-wire control circuit for each machine...so many things to buy and integrate just to satisfy an inspection...let the inspection be of the structure and go about your own business later.

It's all in the switch .. simple hook up

 

[Radix2]

Again - why not simply change to a plug/cord?


If it is not hardwired to the residence, it is outside the inspectors purview. No need to move it, hide it or do anything else. Most of us have quite a few machines in this HP range without starters, they are sold everyday.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Again - why not simply change to a plug/cord?

SWAG - if it did not come from the factory that, you can not just put a plug and cord on it.

 

[mm08822]

Wow, huge can of worms here opened unnecessarily....those drum-type 3 pole switches have been used since the 1930s on bridgeports...

Respectfully I would say its going to be easier to rig your machines out, call for inspection, if there are questions, say "suffering from *** terminal illness, sold all of my machines" and get your inspection pass. Then move everything back in.

Otherwise the door is now opened to 240:120 control transformers, needing neutral wire for 120vac for controls, or 24vac transformer, or 24vdc power supply. Will need reversing starter with aux contacts to inhibit the "other direction". Need non-maintained start-stop pushbuttons (I personally am a fan of Allen Bradley good used 800T series - 30mm switches) and a 3-wire control circuit for each machine...so many things to buy and integrate just to satisfy an inspection...let the inspection be of the structure and go about your own business later.

Again - why not simply change to a plug/cord?


If it is not hardwired to the residence, it is outside the inspectors purview. No need to move it, hide it or do anything else. Most of us have quite a few machines in this HP range without starters, they are sold everyday.

I would like to know what codes the inspector is citing stating that you need mag starters and low voltage controls. I agree it is safer to have, but this seems to be going a little too deep for simply getting the building inspected. Ask him for the specific codes.

In the US, if we can't completely wire a circuit, as long as it was terminated in a recept or even a j-box with a blank cover, then it would pass inspection b/c all wiring is terminated in a safe manner and protected.

You could tell the inspector you don't have the cash right now and chose to leave them disconnected.

Or tell him they will be polished up and are the first 2 museum pieces you now own.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I would definitely rewire the motors for 240v.

CONCUR !

Just google "grizzly tools starter switch" -- get one for the motor size. Too bad you are not near me ... Have two sitting around.

The things you have are just switches

First, you are correct. The OP is making a mountain out of a mole hill ! The Grizzly mag starter switches are pre-packaged and ready to go.



It looks like you want a G4572.

The trick is, where to install it ! The simplest thing to do is NOT MESS WITH ANY OF THE SWITCHES ON THE MACHINES ! Just install this starter on the wall where the wires come out !! The output of the starter just goes into the machine switch.

Turn the equipment on and then reach over and push the start button on the starter. You can wire it onto the machine later when you have time.


This is just a NEMA Size 1 (SB01) starter. You can buy them used on eBay for under $20. No housing and no start/stop button.

 

[mm08822]

CONCUR !


First, you are correct. The OP is making a mountain out of a mole hill ! The Grizzly mag starter switches are pre-packaged and ready to go.



It looks like you want a G4572.

The trick is, where to install it ! The simplest thing to do is NOT MESS WITH ANY OF THE SWITCHES ON THE MACHINES ! Just install this starter on the wall where the wires come out !! The output of the starter just goes into the machine switch.

Turn the equipment on and then reach over and push the start button on the starter. You can wire it onto the machine later when you have time.


This is just a NEMA Size 1 (SB01) starter. You can buy them used on eBay for under $20. No housing and no start/stop button.

Op is currently wired for 120v. You spec'd the 240 volt version. If it were me, I would use the 240v also, but in doing so requires re-wire of the drum switch and motor. Otherwise he could use the 120 volt version as you described above.

 

[Matt Matt]

OP

If this were my shop,
-I would put 220 V plugs on the wall, swap out the breakers for 220 double breakers, add some red shrink to the white neutral line indicating it is now hot
- rewire the machines for 220 V,
- add the grizzly control starter fixed to the machine.
- pick yourself up some 12 gauge SOOW(or SJOOW, but I only use SOOW) 3 wire and a 6-20 plug and receptacle.

Make sure that the grizzly starter has a 220 V magnetic coil and it is CSA/UL approved.

When the inspector comes to inspect, have the cord rolled up on the floor. The machine is no longer attached to the building, but since he’s already seen it, he could be a hard ***. He might ask you to plug it in.

Edit; I just read the post that you deleted.... Come on don’t be so hard on yourself. Take it one day at a time and get things done safely. Most guys (that I have seen) here are actually trying to be helpful. Get your machines up and running safely, but more importantly get your wiring outlet so you,ll pass your ESA. Remember ESA inspector is your friend. He’s looking out for your better interest!

if you’re looking for any schooling help on either machine, send me a PM. If you’re looking for some extra tooling, I might have some of that too. I’m out the Milton way, about once a month. Right now I’m doing a lot of contract work in Whitby and possibly I’ll be down the Hammer the next week or two.

I did do a quick look to see if I have any contactors in stock that you could be looking for. I do have one (size1 230 coil) but...it’s reserved for a drillpress job I have coming up.

Keep your chin up.

 

[Tarheel Slim]

Im getting it solved,mag starters are going on the wall for now rather than mounting to lathe or mill,putting a cover plates over the switches on wall,will update tomorrow.

 

[Bert_]

I really don't see how the internal machine wiring is any of the inspectors business. His responsibility should only include any wiring you add to the machine, anything factory wired is ok whether he likes it or not.

Any of the things he is requiring are certainly nice to have and may add a bit of safety. But I can't think of anything electrical code wise that would require them. After all he is an electrical inspector not OSHA.

The only thing that I see some merit in is requiring that your switches be rated for the horsepower of the machine it is controlling.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Op is currently wired for 120v. You spec'd the 240 volt version.

It is not clear whether it is a 120V or 240V coil. Assuming it is a 120V coil, just use one leg.

 

[mm08822]

It is not clear whether it is a 120V or 240V coil. Assuming it is a 120V coil, just use one leg.

The coil is 240v in the G4572 and 120v in the G8291. Coil voltage matches Power voltage.

 

[Matt Matt]

It is not clear whether it is a 120V or 240V coil. Assuming it is a 120V coil, just use one leg.

The op has not directly specified whether or not the coil will be 120 V or 240 V.

Presently it is set up as a 120 V 20 amp. circuit, directly wired to the machine.
The machines are considered stationary.

As soon is it is directly (Hard) wired, the inspector does have some say in the matter. That’s why I suggested plugs and outlets.

 

[Tarheel Slim]

I have ordered some Allen-Bradley mag starters at 165.00 each ,i chose non reversing because im keeping the drum switches on each, lathe and mill. These tools each have a double pull 20A breaker for each,it was wired for 220v but didnt sound too good when i went to start the lathe up,after remembering i had it wired for 110v so i moved the white wire to the neutral bus,will i be able to keep the double pull 20A breakers in or will the inspector make me use a single pull,i would think the double pull would be ok but im not sure.

 

[walta]

I have thump thru the code a few times so I am not an expert. I would like to read the lines in the code that requires magnetic starters, could someone more familiar please post the applicable section number.

After you have your approval ask the inspector my guess is he cant provide the line number.

Walta

 

[Tarheel Slim]

Im not trying to make a mountain from a mole hill but the ESA have sent me a Notice Of Deficiency it says i have to have a licensed electrical contractor preform remedial work unless otherwise specified under law.The defects are as follows...OESC 2015 Rule 28-400 Undervoltage protection required for motors.
The second defect is OESC 2015 Rule 28-500 Motor starters shall be of an approved type and have a horsepower rating at least equal to the rating of the motor to be controlled.I have corrected the second defect,i have an electrician looking into it but he seems to be taking his sweet time.This need to be corrected by Nov 3. Whats get me is how much of a waste of money this has become,this inspector is unbelievable.Sorry had to vent this all out.

 

[The Cobbler]

That's a shame. I had a very positive experience with my ESA inspector.

 

[The Cobbler]

My lathe was plugged in on final and he never even looked at the ratings etc.

 

[Radix2]

Im not trying to make a mountain from a mole hill but the ESA have sent me a Notice Of Deficiency it says i have to have a licensed electrical contractor preform remedial work unless otherwise specified under law.The defects are as follows...OESC 2015 Rule 28-400 Undervoltage protection required for motors.
The second defect is OESC 2015 Rule 28-500 Motor starters shall be of an approved type and have a horsepower rating at least equal to the rating of the motor to be controlled.I have corrected the second defect,i have an electrician looking into it but he seems to be taking his sweet time.This need to be corrected by Nov 3. Whats get me is how much of a waste of money this has become,this inspector is unbelievable.Sorry had to vent this all out.

You have never answered the question - why don't you put plugs on the machines like 99% of people and avoid having to jump through hoops for hard wired/installed equipment?

Did you discuss with the inspector?

Unless it is a Canada rule, there is no reason to hardwire this type of equipment at these HP, no reason to go through your expenses.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Did you discuss with the inspector?

What is to there to discuss. The inspector ALWAYS has the final word !

 

[ard]

OT warning...

So about 45 years ago, 1973 or so, we were moving out of our home in NYC. Queens.

Turns out the finished basement was finished without a permit by my Dad. Buyers insisted on inspections.

All goes OK, until the NYC plumbing inspector comes out. Tells my Dad the drain from the laundry tub to the main drain is too shallow, doesnt meet the x per foot. My dad looks, realizes it will be a total PITA to redo it. Gives the guy the "ah man, is it really that big a deal?" approach. No dice. My dad then says, as he puts his hand in his pocket, "Look, I have a few bucks- what will it take? look, I have (as he is counting) $85 here, can we make this work?"

(Remember, NYC, 1973... )

Guy looks at him, gets angry- say "Look pal.... I have a wife, I have a girlfriend...I have EXPENSES... A job like this is 300-400 easy"

Dad says "then I will do something else", gets the failure notice

He then removes the laundry tub, caps off all the pipes. Calls for a reinspect. Inspector comes back, says nothing, gives him the approval.

Popped the tub back in the next day, sold the house.

That line- "I have a wife, I have a girlfriend" was a 'go to' line in our family ever since...



I thought of this because this is what Id do in this situation- NOT comply, do whatever I could to tell this AH to pound sand.

 

[Matt Matt]

OT warning...

So about 45 years ago, 1973 or so, we were moving out of our home in NYC. Queens.

Turns out the finished basement was finished without a permit by my Dad. Buyers insisted on inspections.

All goes OK, until the NYC plumbing inspector comes out. Tells my Dad the drain from the laundry tub to the main drain is too shallow, doesnt meet the x per foot. My dad looks, realizes it will be a total PITA to redo it. Gives the guy the "ah man, is it really that big a deal?" approach. No dice. My dad then says, as he puts his hand in his pocket, "Look, I have a few bucks- what will it take? look, I have (as he is counting) $85 here, can we make this work?"

(Remember, NYC, 1973... )

Guy looks at him, gets angry- say "Look pal.... I have a wife, I have a girlfriend...I have EXPENSES... A job like this is 300-400 easy"

Dad says "then I will do something else", gets the failure notice

He then removes the laundry tub, caps off all the pipes. Calls for a reinspect. Inspector comes back, says nothing, gives him the approval.

Popped the tub back in the next day, sold the house.

That line- "I have a wife, I have a girlfriend" was a 'go to' line in our family ever since...



I thought of this because this is what Id do in this situation- NOT comply, do whatever I could to tell this AH to pound sand.

LOL, I love, “I have a wife, I have a girlfriend” any man who can carry out this out successfully has more money and time than I. This is why I gave my personal suggestion and post 48. As once it is hardwired, it becomes part of the building and supply chain, and subject to inspection....

But under a resale, there is just an outlet on the wall that has been certified.

 

[Tarheel Slim]

I will look into the wall plugs and see if it ok with the inspector i will have to cancel my order i have for the mag starters ,im sure that will piss off the guy i got to order them for me. Im sure the wall plugs will be cheaper,if they are allowed.

 

[Tarheel Slim]

Passed the final inspection went with the low voltage starters, a very worth while investment ,thanks for all the input and responses folks.