Finally getting started - 54x40

[el_chupo_]

Hello all. Long time lurker with many a dream, and recently the wife and I purchased some land. We plan on building the house in a few years, but we also plan on a shop with solar panels for house power, and want to take advantage of the 22% federal tax credit that ends next year, so the shop looks like it will get the nod for first building (plus we can store stuff in there while building/preparing to build).

So the obvious question of size has been narrowed to 40x60, or possibly a bit larger - call it 50x70 on the outside range of space, with 45x60 being my ideal spot. That will give me the space for the solar array I want to have the ability to add.

Focus: I like to tinker in hobbies, but have a long-lasting obsession with cars and a developing desire to work with wood.


Due to the solar desires I am looking a the ends of the building facing east/west, and have been trying to figure out:

Layout
Construction method
size
costs for the above.

Solar adds less than 5 lbs per sq ft, so I am not worried about the load on the roof.

I live in north texas, snow is not a concern.



My current "best plan" is a 45x60, with a shop area in the front for automotive, wood in the back, and a side area that can be called general storage/shop for now, and available for future space.

I am looking at Strat-o-span, as well as local pole barn buildings, and I have a buddy in the construction industry that will try to get me some quotes on hook-ups as well.

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Plan is 12' high walls to provide space for a lift. May eventually put in a second, but most likely second is probably something like a max jack that an be moved around for a second lift.




I am just starting the process of looking for bids, getting quotes from a few building vendors, etc.

The 45' is specific to letting me have a reasonably wide shop in the back for wood working Cutting that down to 40' limits that greatly, so if that were the case I would probably end up doing the 40' wide shop on the "east" end, with 20x30 in the back of the west side, with the front being the general shop/storage area. But that means a lot more width needed for parking and driveway - which may not be a bad thing.


I do have a building site in mind, but it slopes back toward a seasonal creek, about 4-5' of drop over 100' or so, so I will need to do some dirt work, to be sure.

So please, critique, throw in estimates on costs, changes to the layout, reasons to go pole barn vs steel building vs stick built (all are in the running).


Tell me what I dont know, what I havent thought about, or what I dismissed/ignored out of ignorance. Ask any clarifying questions I can help answer that may help as well.


Thanks!

Matt



EDIT: Title change

 

[egdede]

Make sure 4 - 5' of drop isn't really 7 - 8' drop.

 

[MrSurly]

Make sure 4 - 5' of drop isn't really 7 - 8' drop.

This^.


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[matt_i]

Are you trying to cool & heat the building's interior or just a part of it or just a shell for right now? Provisions for sprayed foam are important as you build if you go that route. But building a stick building inside of a post frame as you insulate and finish it kills some of the economy.

Also, can you put your location in your profile please? Its great that its in the first post but we will eventually forget it and that way you don't have to add it to every additional post that you make. More meaningful answers will result as things are done differently in different parts of the country.

I don't know if you will get utility service until you have a residence (??) but if not, its very important to make provisions for the electrical service at this point.

 

[el_chupo_]

Make sure 4 - 5' of drop isn't really 7 - 8' drop.

This^.

Thank you, I will be out there this weekend, I suspect, and will try to verify drop and distance.

Can you kindly fill me in on why this is something to double check now? Outside of the work to build the pad and a relatively low slope for the parking/entrance, will an extra foot or two dramatically change the plan?

Are you trying to cool & heat the building's interior or just a part of it or just a shell for right now? Provisions for sprayed foam are important as you build if you go that route. But building a stick building inside of a post frame as you insulate and finish it kills some of the economy.

Also, can you put your location in your profile please? Its great that its in the first post but we will eventually forget it and that way you don't have to add it to every additional post that you make. More meaningful answers will result as things are done differently in different parts of the country.

I don't know if you will get utility service until you have a residence (??) but if not, its very important to make provisions for the electrical service at this point.

On an immediate timeline I will not be conditioning the space, shell initially and finishing it out later. I will eventually do some interior building for the two work spaces and storage areas. I am still working on plans for insulation. Probably spray foam the roof, but undecided about fiberglass or polyiso for walls and additional in the roof. In the frame out areas I can do that when building for additional R value as needed.



The electrical planning is something that is in the planning process, referring to the power in, and power from solar back to the meter for grid-tie. In the shop itself, the plan is for several 220 outlets, probably 3-4 in the automotive side (lift, left and right side, and possibly one on back wall) 4-6 on the wood side for the table saw, band saw, dust collector, planer, jointer, sanders, etc based on their location when that is planned. On the open side I will probably run one at the back, one toward the front, and adjust as needs dictate in the future. Then a bunch of 110 outlets as needed.

Location added, thanks for the reminder!

Matt

 

[MrSurly]

Matt, read my build thread and many others around here (lots to get lost in, we know).
I estimated the drop across my pad.
Three different dirt contractors estimated it as well.
Estimates were. “6 Loads” “maybe 9 loads” and then.... the third guy actually brought a laser and spent an hour measuring and calculated that it would take 22 loads. I thought he was bonkers. I hired the “9 load” guy. In the end, it ACTUALLY took 23 14yd loads and my $1800 dirt work estimate became a nearly five grand job.
THIS is how you get off on the wrong foot and get in a bind, even though everyone meant well.
Get multiple estimates and accurate measurements.



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[MrSurly]

Are you going to be dealing with a city or county or HOA or deed restrictions as to build?
Since you are building on a slope, there may be the possibility that you could do a stem wall build, say 3’ a then have that much less lumber to deal with; access would limited to the low side of course.
If the area falls off toward a creek, will a retaining wall be needed?
The cheapest, quickest completed shell is without question, pole barn construction. Stick is quite a bit more expensive (fir just a shell) and red iron is even more.
If you are going to insulate (say just spray foam) pole still wins.
But if you are going to *finish* the interior walls by studding it out, then stick wins over pole and iron.
Red iron does offer quick assembly, but the process that must be done prior is not quick.


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[el_chupo_]

I cannot get an IMGUR or FLIKR photo to post for some reason, but that is probably due to my privacy settings or something. Ill get that figured out in a bit so I can post a picture of the rough interior plan a little better. I do plan on some interior finishing, so stick may make more sense.

County (no city, no HOA, and no restrictions). This is going in the middle of 25 acres.

 

[Keithinsc]

I built a 30 x 60 red iron building a few years back. Also included a 15' deep shed or lean to along the 60' side, really just an extension of the roof. One over head door opens into the shed area. Any dirty work (grinding, sawing, cutting) gets done in the open shed. Easy cleanup, the closed in part of the building stays a little cleaner. Once the job is done, everything gets rolled thru the door and locked up. Having the shade is priceless.
Big overhead door on the endwall, make sure you spec the overheads doors tall and WIDE!

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, I suggest you consider Shipping Containers.

They can be locked up to provide semi-secure storage, they can be stacked to give you the high walls to accommodate a lift (think two rows) with roof trusses.

Your first end walls on the open area could be Chain Link Fence.

 

[el_chupo_]

IMHO, I suggest you consider Shipping Containers.

They can be locked up to provide semi-secure storage, they can be stacked to give you the high walls to accommodate a lift (think two rows) with roof trusses.

Your first end walls on the open area could be Chain Link Fence.

The structure itself wont have any open air spots, though I do plan on eventually a lean-to on the back for open storage.

containers would probably work well except for the wife-factor, where it is a hard "nope"...

 

[el_chupo_]

I built a 30 x 60 red iron building a few years back. Also included a 15' deep shed or lean to along the 60' side, really just an extension of the roof. One over head door opens into the shed area. Any dirty work (grinding, sawing, cutting) gets done in the open shed. Easy cleanup, the closed in part of the building stays a little cleaner. Once the job is done, everything gets rolled thru the door and locked up. Having the shade is priceless.
Big overhead door on the endwall, make sure you spec the overheads doors tall and WIDE!

The rough plan is a 10 or 12 wide door in front of the lift, then a 18 (or pair of smaller) doors for other vehicle access to the auto-shop side, then another large door on the side that has no designated purpose yet for getting wood and supplies in to the wood shop area.

Lean to will be on the back side for outdoor work and covered storage where elements are less of a concern, and I plan on a man door on the back side for access as well.

With the front (south) side needing to be clear of all trees for solar and parking, the back will have trees/shade.

 

[el_chupo_]

To monkey-wrench things, the wife just suggested two buildings. After spitballing and some calculations, I could probably get away with a 30x50 building with a dual pitch roof for the solar, and use that as the sole shop for a while, then later build a second one (for argument sake the same size) in an L shape. this would cut costs a bunch up front with the solar and shop purpose covered for a few years. Just gotta make sure the plan for expansion or another stays alive...

 

[Bopbop]

Either of the shop sizes sound nice. A few things that I have discovered with my new shop and a friends new shop.
1. Use spray foam insulation in the roof and walls. It is amazing the difference it makes even without heating and cooling.
2. Know where you plan on putting your lift and thicken the slab at that location. A 2 post can be mounted on 4" thick 3500 # concrete. My slab was 4000# mix but I had the slab increase to 12" thick in an area 5' x 12'. It only cost a couple hundred more but I do not have worries about cracks or the slab failing.
3. No matter how much electrical you put in the garage you will with time want more. I had that problem with my last shop. The new one has a 200 amp service with a 42 space panel. Yes I only used half of my spaces but the cost difference between the 24 and 42 space panel with the extra breakers was only a few hundred dollars.
4. You said that you was going to have 12 foot eves height. Use some good high bay LED lights. I have 24 in my 30 x 60 and roughly 240,000 lumens of lighting, about 90 to 100 foot candles at 3 foot. All of my lights are on (1) 20 amp circuit with no problems.
5. If you can use coil up doors. No issues with them blocking the lights or being in the way.

Good luck

 

[el_chupo_]

Either of the shop sizes sound nice. A few things that I have discovered with my new shop and a friends new shop.
1. Use spray foam insulation in the roof and walls. It is amazing the difference it makes even without heating and cooling.
2. Know where you plan on putting your lift and thicken the slab at that location. A 2 post can be mounted on 4" thick 3500 # concrete. My slab was 4000# mix but I had the slab increase to 12" thick in an area 5' x 12'. It only cost a couple hundred more but I do not have worries about cracks or the slab failing.
3. No matter how much electrical you put in the garage you will with time want more. I had that problem with my last shop. The new one has a 200 amp service with a 42 space panel. Yes I only used half of my spaces but the cost difference between the 24 and 42 space panel with the extra breakers was only a few hundred dollars.
4. You said that you was going to have 12 foot eves height. Use some good high bay LED lights. I have 24 in my 30 x 60 and roughly 240,000 lumens of lighting, about 90 to 100 foot candles at 3 foot. All of my lights are on (1) 20 amp circuit with no problems.
5. If you can use coil up doors. No issues with them blocking the lights or being in the way.

Good luck

Thanks Bopbop!

All of these are on the list! What lights did you end up with?

 

[reader2580]

If you have enough land I highly suggest ground mounts for solar. That way you are not dealing with designing a building specifically around solar requirements. You also don't have to deal with lag bolts through your new roof that could leak if not done right.

I did 21 panels on the back roof of my current garage and 12 panels on a ground mount behind the garage. I wish now I had put all of my panels on a ground mount. I found a really good ground mount system from Cargowall LTD after I had put the panels on the roof. I have plenty of land for ground mounts.

 

[WisJim]

I'll second for ground mounts for solar. My very first panels were mounted on a rack on the side of a building, but that was in 1981 and things have changed. Mine are ground mounts now and although they cost a bit more than roof mounting, it is easier to clear snow (not a problem for you), and no worries about leakage. Also, they probably are running a bit cooler than a roof mount, which means a bit more power from the panels. I have helped a number of friends who have gotten their PV systems from RenVu online and they have all be pleased with the service and products. They have a great online calculator to help you figure out everything you need.

 

[el_chupo_]

Ground mount would be preferable, but not practical. It is not an issue of land, as we have about 25 acres - rather a cleared area to place the panels...

The whole 25 acres is what I would call a heavily treed. As in I dont think I could put more than a 2 car garage anywhere on the property without cutting down multiple trees.

We did a lot of discussing on where to put them, but due to the shape and our desires to otherwise keep as many trees as possible, a roof mount makes the most sense. While leaking and heat are my biggest concern, the space to get them and current efficiencies are able to get me past that. Additionally I have checked efficiency with fixed mount angles and my lattitude and can survive with a 4/12 pitch, and a short fixed mount tilt leg set, aiding in space for cooling under the panels.

The area I wanted to put the shop (from the first time I saw the property) happens to be situated almost perfectly for due south, and because of the path and space for the building I will not have to take out excess trees beyond the planned area anyways.

I am somewhat familiar with ground mounts for our area, as my dad and my father in laws neighbor have them (48 and 40 panels, respectively), and if I had a field or even a cleared back yard, I would be doing ground mount.


To be clear, this is hypothetical but I am talking to a local solar company, and a few online spots as well. I will check out RenVu this evening. Any other thoughts on that front are greatly appreciated as well!

 

[el_chupo_]

Rough land layout and trees

The yellow area is where the shop will be, blue line is seasonal creek

I have measured a ~3' drop from front to back of the yellow area, at 100ft back from the little trail you see in the pic, and that leaves probably 30ft+ from the creek area at the closest point. About a 1' west to east slope, so corner to corner the worst is a bit under 4'.

 

[el_chupo_]

So after the Covid thing lasting a lot longer than expected, it taking over 2 years to get started building the house, and life in general, we are finally getting started.

The plan got looked at and due to spacing of a line of walnut trees we wanted to keep, and being able to drive around both sides of the property and a space for a future plan, we ended up with a slab of 54' 3" x 40' 3". The 3" are to account for a drop edge for the steel panels or siding to extend past the floor plate, 1.5" around the building.

Slab is 5", 3500psi concrete with footers and beams for strength and stability, and lift pads for a 2 post lift, those are 4x4, and 12" thick.


Layout plan is attached.

2x6 walls, 5:12 roof trusses, Attic storage room over the left side (storage room is ~24x10, 6ft tall).

This does not show some of the planned additional built rooms inside along the back wall.

Progress and pics may be sporadic, but will come sooner or later...

 

[crunchwallet]

Any significant changes in cost from then to now?

 

[el_chupo_]

Very much so. I wish we had started when originally planned, but we switched from "shop building first, then house" to house first, and shop before we finish.

We are stick building because the cost of steel has gone up. Local places wanted 40-60k on the carport style steel buildings (50x40, same doors and layout), and weld up was coming in at $55-60k, no doors included.

Spray foam has almost doubled in cost.

Trusses came in just under $400 per (averaged), build locally at Ft. Worth Lumber, including taxes and delivery to the property. This is up about 75% from pre-covid.

I am building a house currently, so I am snagging some of the treated 2x6s left over from that framing (so I paid for them already) and am under $2k in 2x6s and LVLs for the door headers. Not much of an increase on dimensional stuff.

I bought 4/0-4/0-2/0 for the electric from my meter to the shop for its panel, and I bought that for the house about 10 months ago, and it was $2/ft cheaper then (paid around 4.25 or so for this roll). A little over 300ft of that, costs almost doubled there.

Concrete is up about 60% around me in the last 2 years.

I havent added all the costs up on this one yet (mostly so I am not so sad). Right now Im about $42-45k in, to be able to start framing. Dirt -work and slab, and lumber costs.

 

[crunchwallet]

Very much so. I wish we had started when originally planned, but we switched from "shop building first, then house" to house first, and shop before we finish.

I had planned to start building in 2019 but a few projects came up and decided to wait a bit. Now, I don't see it happening as I just can't justify spending that kind of money at a property that I will likely sell in 5-8 yrs. And it typically doesnt increase the home value enough to justify the expense.

 

[el_chupo_]

That is a fair assessment. At least around me, it is sort of expected for the size house and property we are going to end up with, and does have some value increase (though certainly not 1:1 at current costs), but I think there is a definite cost/benefit conversation that has to happen. And if building costs continue to rise, it may actually make some money one day, who knows?

The hobby and storage aspect not withstanding - in my case, I get some benefit as the shop is a solar panel mount that is close to mandatory for us, though I intend on being the one installing the panels. Same with the construction, also as a cost savings requirement. I am still going to be a little more than budget was a couple years ago, for a smaller building, but by being able do some of the work, it should remain palatable for my situation.


I do hope you can figure out what will work for you too

 

[crunchwallet]

That is a fair assessment. At least around me, it is sort of expected for the size house and property we are going to end up with, and does have some value increase (though certainly not 1:1 at current costs), but I think there is a definite cost/benefit conversation that has to happen. And if building costs continue to rise, it may actually make some money one day, who knows?

The hobby and storage aspect not withstanding - in my case, I get some benefit as the shop is a solar panel mount that is close to mandatory for us, though I intend on being the one installing the panels. Same with the construction, also as a cost savings requirement. I am still going to be a little more than budget was a couple years ago, for a smaller building, but by being able do some of the work, it should remain palatable for my situation.


I do hope you can figure out what will work for you too

very good points. And one can't really put a price on being able to store/work on your stuff, on your property etc. It is something I am going to focus on this year to figure out the best solution.