Finding a lost drain pipe

[b-body-bob]

Yeah a drain near the surface would be good but I'd need to add a lift pump since it starts out that low coming out from under the house. If I end up with a pump installed the outflow from it will be run just below the grass, I guarantee you that.

We had another huge downpour last night and the drain backed up again,. I confirmed the blockage is downstream because it was backed up at the clean out.

FWIW I've been too busy at work to remember to call anyone during the day about a pipe tracer or similar. Its a vicious cycle, gotta work to pay to fix it, can't fix it because I gotta work. Everybody has the same story though, there's nothing special about me.

 

[b-body-bob]

Well it took two more times flooding the garage due to that backed up drain, but I finally stuck a 5k GPH pump (1-1/2" outflow) in it, and am taking bids on installing a 6" drain. The trench is about 20 wide by 12 deep by 9 wide, hopefully 6" will handle it. Right now it's only 3".

We also hand trenched and laid in 30' of 4" drain behind the house. It's been downright biblical here this week, as far as rain goes.

 

[BillK]

and am taking bids on installing a 6" drain. The trench is about 20 wide by 12 deep by 9 wide, hopefully 6" will handle it.

Wouldn't it be easier to just find out where the present drain is blocked ? I would want to know that anyway.

 

[b-body-bob]

Yeah I'd like to know too, but I'm at the point there's so much wrong about it, it's not worth messing with. The thing is just not built right to begin with - remember, ditch is 9"w by 12" deep and 20' long. It's at the bottom of a driveway dumping a ton of water down it. Then it tries to shove all that water into a 3" outlet. It's just a disaster in waiting even if it was draining free.

Then there are complications of things around it needing fixed anyway - there's two failed walls on either side of the drive, and the drive is all busted up in the drain trench from at least a decade of neglect. (I bought it this way)

I figure it this way - I can either spend the money fixing it and not have to mess around with a shop vac and squeegee ever again, or I can hunt for it, eventually let it slip my mind, then be po'ed again the next time it backs up into the house. I'm way too tired to deal with that if I can avoid it.

 

[b-body-bob]

FWIW the guy who gave me a quote on fixing the drain never got back to me, and that stupid sump pump isn't reliable either, the float keeps getting stuck on the rod, so you have to give it a shake to get it going.

I brought a plumber out who tried to clear it with an eel, but no joy after about 30-35 feet. I went ahead and scheduled a return trip this time with a camera and locator. Today's guy did accomplish one thing - he noticed that across the road, about 20 feet below road level there's a gray drain pipe, and it's dry as a bone. That might be it. Hopefully we'll be able to figure it out once the camera and locator are on site.

This thing won't break me but it might wear me smooth before it's over.

 

[Sureshot]

I have used PEX to wash out plugged lines. Stiff enough to push in.

 

[b-body-bob]

That's a pretty good idea with the Pex. Seems like it would be hard to get it around corners though.

Now that the plumbers have left, I should rename this thread how to burn $600 without starting a fire.

Also I climbed down to the pipe the other guy thought he'd found, and it was just laying down there not connected to anything. The road's been paved and public drainage redone several times that I know of, so it might have been my drain at one point but now it's just trash. It's hard to imagine they'd run drainage onto someone else's property but no way to know what was agreed to 40 years ago.

 

[volleyball]

How did you spend $600 already? It's been 2 months. Seems it would have been cost effective to go get some better rental equipment from a nearby city.

 

[b-body-bob]

Two guys, it adds up, but I think the amount is wrong though. I got the rates from the lady on the phone and wrote them down. There's no reason to take it out on the workers so I'm waiting on them to mail a statement so I can see how they made $90 an hour (50 and 40 each) for 3 hours add up to 600.

FWIW, on the cameras - Nothing but high tech BS for a job like this one. If the pipe's blocked there will be mud and water in it, and the camera won't work at all. I had them run it up a dry pipe that goes to my foundation, and after about 80 feet it got to the point they couldn't shove it any further. No blockage anywhere but it was 30-40 feet shy of the actual foundation when it stopped. I guess I at least know where not to dig based on what it showed, but still I had no satisfaction from the camera in either pipe.

Anyway, they had a serious snake machine, not one of the ones you can get at Harbor Freight or the rental shop, and it just stopped about 15 yards out and wouldn't go any further. That's where I guess I'll be digging soon enough.

FWIW, I don't think either of the teams that came out worked as hard at trying to clear the blockage as I do when I have to clear roots out of the sewer line on this house. It's never easy but I'm always able to get it cleared. The problem is the blockage is right at at the limit of the lengths of the rental machines - 50 feet - so there's no reason to even try that.

 

[ctgoodman]

Depending on how deep it is you could run a steel fish tape down it and use a metal detector to find which way it goes.

 

[volleyball]

Attach a sensor to a rodent and send them down the pipe.

 

[b-body-bob]

FWIW again, I started digging by hand just past where the plumbers stopped and found the pipe about 3' deep with a huge root that got inside the pipe at a slip joint and was basically wrapped around it for 6 feet more. I got the root dug up and off the pipe and am going to cut the pipe open and snake the living **** out of it tomorrow. Hopefully I can get it unblocked. I'll be working at it uphill as the pipe runs so hopefully I can get some water in there and wash out the cuttings as I go until I get through the whole mess.

 

[macgyver37]

While you are there, put in a cleanout at that point, so that the 50ft rental can be used to reach farther. Might even go down another 30-40 ft and put in another cleanout.

I love trees until I have to dig them out of pipes or off the roof.

 

[EOC_Jason]

This is getting interesting, but inquiring minds have to know where the pipe ends up!

 

[volleyball]

Glad to see you are getting it done. New tech is great but sometimes you have to break a sweat.

 

[Norcal]

What material is this pipe? By the root getting in makes me think Orangeburg, that stuff is a headache.

 

[b-body-bob]

While you are there, put in a cleanout at that point, so that the 50ft rental can be used to reach farther. Might even go down another 30-40 ft and put in another cleanout.

I love trees until I have to dig them out of pipes or off the roof.

I'm going to put in cleanouts where it's dug up now and if I have to dig more I'll put more in toward the end. I'm hoping it won't come to that because there's no trees where the pipe runs from there down. But OTOH, the big root came from a maple tree that is 10-15 feet from the pipe. It must be thirsty.

I feel the same way about trees, they're good and bad. We're surrounded by oaks and this is going to be a big year for acorns so I can't wait for that.

This is getting interesting, but inquiring minds have to know where the pipe ends up!

I haven't done it yet because I'm working alone but I think I can pretty much pull a string between points and find the end now. If it turns away from the way it's running it would be turning uphill.

Glad to see you are getting it done. New tech is great but sometimes you have to break a sweat.

Sometimes you have to rain down buckets of sweat. They don't call me the human dehumidifier for nothing.

What material is this pipe? By the root getting in makes me think Orangeburg, that stuff is a headache.

The pipe started out white thin wall plastic at the house but is grey plastic where it's dug up. The place the root got in is a slip joint but I noticed the next connection is made with a coupler where both pipes slide inside and are glued. So the bad spot was tailor made for roots to get in.

It rained last night so that might put a damper on the fun (pun not intended). For some reason the weather channel is pretty much useless here. I've seen it say 100% chance of rain on one page, and show 0% on another. The other day it had the temperature going up 10 degrees at 6 PM.

Here's a poor photo of what I found when I first uncovered the pipe. Flow is right to left, pipe closest to camera is drain, other is sewer. There's a 3/4" copper water line somewhere under that. I found a thin ground wire coming out from under those pipes that must be connected to the water pipe. Hopefully the water is well below those pipes so it's not in the way of cutting and snaking.

 

[b-body-bob]

More good news, the weather for today says
"Saturday: Hazy, hot and humid with highs in the low to mid 90s. It'll be the hottest day in more than a month. Southwest breeze at 5-15 mph."

It's going to rain off and on tomorrow.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Where are you located?

 

[b-body-bob]

Huntington WV

Since you're in Houston you're probably laughing at that weather report. I work with a bunch of people down there. The humidity is terrible here though. You can see it in the air out there today already.

 

[Andybull]

This is what I bought after needing to find a ground fault in an electrical line (Dynatel 2273). You could have also set it up to find your pipe.
After hiring an electrician to do it for me, the worker who was sent to do the job, had a little hand held finder. An hour later, he got out his dowsing rods and said he was going to start digging. That's when I said to let me know how much I owed him and sent him on his way.
Btw, I too had tried the dowsing rod method, but was dowsing another circuit 70 feet away, which was the same spot he wanted to start digging .

[/IMG]

 

[volleyball]

How much that set you back? Over $1k? Do you rent it out? I need to find exactly where my service wire is laid prior to entering. I am wondering if there is any slack.

 

[6768rogues]

At the school where I worked we bought a camera that could go 200 feet into a pipe. Then there was a locator (like a metal detector) that would find where it was underground. It cost $8000 so I am not sure how much it would cost to hire someone who has one or if they are available as rentals.

 

[59 wagon man]

I would think a plumbers scope might be perfect. You know the starting direction so you know straight and you can see if it turns. the scope should have distance marks to tell you how far and you may be able to see the clog.

this could lead to a lot of extra digging and damage as the camera will show a change of direction but not which direction, in other words i can see a elbow but does it turn left or right ? plus you are not looking for condition only location so the proper tool is a locater. a sonde is connected to the snake cable and feed into the line, now a metal detector is used to follow the sonde until you cant feed the cable any longer and that is where the line ends








































/

 

[59 wagon man]

You said the run is about 100 feet and you know the direction. Get a piece of rope that is at least that long, stake, tie, helper hold, etc. one end by where you know the drain pipe is and run the other out to the end, in a straight line. Your end should be in the general area where the end of the drain is. If there is nothing visible, start digging. You may find it ends in a "dry well" that has become plugged, filled in, over time and needs to be redone. I did this at an old farm house my parents owned that I was renting. Kitchen sink drain dumped into a ditch in the basement that ran to a pipe in the foundation that then ran out to a dry well. Having helped my father work on this when I was young, I knew roughly where it was.

definitely not the way to do it . i'm sorry but this would lead to loads of extra digging as you have no clue as to fittings involved so imagine you start digging 100' straight out but the sewer went out 5' from the house then had an elbow and a 45 . this would definately change where that 100 ft could be. locater is the trick. something like a ridgid navitrack locater

 

[59 wagon man]

At the school where I worked we bought a camera that could go 200 feet into a pipe. Then there was a locator (like a metal detector) that would find where it was underground. It cost $8000 so I am not sure how much it would cost to hire someone who has one or if they are available as rentals.

we usually charge an avg of $375 for a simple camera or locate

 

[AP514]

How much that set you back? Over $1k? Do you rent it out? I need to find exactly where my service wire is laid prior to entering. I am wondering if there is any slack.

Do not buy that stuff just call your local energy company they will give you a list of companies that will come out and mark it for you.(or just look it up on Google or in the phone book..did I say Phone Book thats so old school)......
The person that came out and did mine marked my electic and gas to my house 150 ft from Street for $50...

 

[b-body-bob]

Can't have this much fun at twice the price

What I thought was a backward slip joint turned out to be a broken pipe once I dug out under it to find where the water line is (right between the 4" pipes of course). First pic shows what it looked like when I cut it open. Second pic shows it now, after I've snaked it end to end once from each direction. After I stuff some groceries down my neck I'm going back out to work on the other side of the cut to get it open to daylight. Once I get that happening, I'll Fernco it all together and flood it to try and get the mud out.

 

[LB-1911]

You're Gaining On It

 

[b-body-bob]

Thanks, it won't break me but it might wear me smooth.

 

[volleyball]

Well you have learned that **** flows downhill, until your pipe gets clogged.

 

[b-body-bob]

"**** flows downhill and payday's on Friday" - new hire orientation at the public service district.

Found the other end of the pipe, buried about a foot in the ground ending in a bunch of old brick and concrete. Kind of weird the brick doesn't match the house, but whatever. Where it ends it's close to a culvert that drains across under the road, and lower than it is too, so ground water for that is going to back up the pipe unless I can come up with some sort of wacko idea to head that off.

This is what we found near dark, and total exhaustion. Barely had enough steam left to put the tools up.

 

[volleyball]

I bet you have enough pitch that it will never back up. You can use a laser level and sight it across the ground and find out how far the top water that the culvert would have and compare it to your basement drain.
If it isn't much, add a backflow preventer.
Glad to see you now know the end of the line

 

[b-body-bob]

Game postponed for rain

That bottom segment is full of mud. There's a half pipe of water standing above at the big hole and none coming out the bottom. We were about 20' in on a 60' pass when the rain started and lunch arrived.

I think I'm going to dig a dry well back away from the culvert so water from my pipe will run downhill toward the culvert. Not sure if I want it at the end of the pipe, or if I want to fork a second run where I've got it dug up, so primary is toward the culvert, and if it backs up that far it'll go over to the dry well. Either way the dry well will end up in about the same place and I know there's no utilities there to worry about so I can dig to China if I have to.

 

[b-body-bob]

The lower drain is still partially clogged. I've got the snake machine until 8 am tomorrow, so I'm back at it again today. It's rained pretty steadily so between that and the water we ran trying to flush the pipe, it's a heckuva mess out there.

We got within 5-6 feet of going all the way up the pipe before progress stopped. Smart guy me decides to keep pressing on trying to jam it through a blockage 50 feet away. Then when we went to pull it back the thing was stuck. Great fun.

It was getting dark so we were making plans on how to hide it so someone wouldn't come along in the night and cut the cable to steal the machine for scrap. I flooded it with water from the high end of the pipe and it eventually came free but it left whatever it was stuck on inside the pipe. All I got out with the snake was a gob of roots wrapped around the cutter head.

Today's plan is to attack with the snake from the high side, and to feed a hose in from the low side to flush it. Hopefully it'll come clear before the day's over. Of course it's supposed to rain more today so a good time will be had by all.

 

[LB-1911]

With you in spirit.

 

[Andybull]

How much that set you back? Over $1k? Do you rent it out? I need to find exactly where my service wire is laid prior to entering. I am wondering if there is any slack.

I wont rent or loan my tools out :/. That I know of, the power company won't find stuff for you unless it's their own underground service.
I asked around to see if someone in my area performed the service and the looks I got were of the dumb kind. This thing will also tell you how far under the ground the item is. Pretty cool.

Oh, the fellow who sent me the first electrician with the hand held finder, aked me to let him make it up to me. He brought two young guys who work for the electric utility company with a borrowed tester. This thing would send a signal through the wire, it would bounce back the signal and would give you a distance where the ground fault would be. It didn't trace it though, so you didn't know where the heck the cabling was underground.

 

[b-body-bob]

With you in spirit.

Thanks for that

We had a live test today. A big downpour passed through. The trench at the garage started backing up and we thought it was business as usual. Then I realized I had one of those gutter guard things stuck in the inlet end of the pipe, and when I pulled that out and you could hear the water being sucked down the drain. We've still got a problem getting the water out to daylight, but it drained and didn't back up so we're pretty happy about that.

Right now, the plan is to stick a 90 on the end of the pipe to bring it straight up to surface, then put one of those pop up style outlets on it. Even though the pipe end was below the surface, you could see it was still draining when the pipe was underwater today. So as mentioned earlier, I may have enough head pressure to where the pipe will drain and not back up, now that it can flow free to the far end.

 

[AP514]

If the power company will not tell you then look it up..it is Private companies that will mark your side..the power company only marks up to you Property line......

 

[AP514]

interesting read..great that you found your problem.....