Finishing my 50x40

[MackMan]

Little over 11 years ago I bought a stand alone garage... about a month before my first son was born

My new garage

Been pondering this for a while http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217640 Just got back from closing, now I just need to get done with work so I can start the clean-up and then set-up! P.O. was closing shop and I got all the "stuff" you see inside for an extra $500, seemed pretty...

www.garagejournal.com

It was great to have the space, and equipment, but being off-site really limited how much I could use it, very hard to just go over for a 10 min job, or just enjoy being there. So a couple of years ago I made the decision to sell that one and build a garage at my house. Of course that meant moving all my stuff somewhere, so I ended up deciding to do the slab & shell of new building, then sell the other garage, and then finish the new garage. Well family life being what it is, that's been a slow process, so about a year and a half after getting the new building up I finally have a contract on the old garage, expect to be closing very soon, and will finally have funds freed up to (mostly) finish the new garage!

So this is a bare bones "carport" style structure now. No electric (been running battery tenders off an extension cord across the driveway) no insulation, heat, etc.
50x40 with 4 9x9 doors, 1 6x6 door and a man door and a few of the basic single pane windows.. nothing special, but the idea was to maximize covered square footage, then upgrade later as time/budget/need allowed.

Slab is 4" 4,000psi, but I did have a 13x4 section poured at 6" with rebar, for a lift.

I'll probably start some separate threads for various aspects of the project, but figured a central thread for ideas or recommendations of things I haven't thought of yet would be nice. Going to start with the "big ticket" items that would be hard to save up for later

1) Electric service- Plan here is to have electrician install meter and minimum required for code so I can get going. Will probably have him go ahead and run my 200v for the lift as well. So far I have 2 quotes, one at $2500 and one at $5400... Both are well recommended long time electricians in the area, a $2,900 price difference seems very strange, so I'll probably move forward with the lower quote. Once I have the basic setup I'll probably do the rest of the wiring myself, as it will be easy enough to piecemeal along the way. I'll obviously need to add some lights etc pretty soon

2) Insulation- I've gone around in circles on this several times, but it seems like closed cell spray foam is the way to go. I have 4 quotes for this, ranging from $10,400 to $13,900. Only one of them has given me an actual written quote on a company letterhead and has also been very responsive to questions. It's also not the most expensive quote, so I'm leaning that direction, but appreciate any feedback on how to pick the right foam installer, as I gather that's where things can go wrong. I also need the seal kits for the doors, which will be around $800 I think. I may upgrade windows later but that's not part of my scope now

3) 10k ALI lift - I had a cheap lift in my old building but it's such a game changer. This is almost higher on my list than the insulation, but it looks like I can do both OK, so I don't really have to rank them. See separate thread here

4) HVAC - With my budget estimates, it looks like I might have enough to do a couple DIY mini-splits... My plan is to start with either a single 48k or 2 24k units. I'm in North Carolina, so temps are usually not too extreme, and I'm mostly wanting to have enough capacity to stay above freezing in winter, and below boiling in summer, as well as some humidity control. I'm leaning toward the 2x24k units, and if I find that's insufficient I can add a 3rd later.

Smaller projects - things that aren't necessarily coming out of the "capital" budget, and may even be years away..
1) internet- I have a mesh system in the house and a high window in the garage facing the house, so I'm planning to get another satellite unit. I can get the house wifi in the garage already if a door is open but not when it's all closed up, so this seems like it should work pretty well

2) door openers- I have the cheap roll-up doors. It looks like the specific openers for these are around $500/ea (or of dubious quality from Amazon etc), but it looks like a lot of people have had success with mounting a traditional garage door opener vertically, and linking 2 doors. Lowe's has a 1hp Craftsman for <$250, so I could do all 4 doors with 2 openers for ~$500.

3) Landscaping etc... The garage is about even with my house in a residential area, and looks a bit "naked" Also had a fair amount of backfill required to get a level pad, so want to do some erosion control

So what am I missing? Sure lots of little details like I'll probably get a big TV, and a small fridge etc, but looking more at the basics right now

 

[4x4Pete]

Nice place you got there! Before any HVAC, you need to get some insulation in there. A well sealed building will heat and cool much more effectively, making the overall use work better. Cars will store better. I have a small shop (30x32) that is well insulated and sealed as much as possible. I live in Canada, so it isn't as hot as some places. I don't have a/c, but in 90° summer, it will stay perfectly comfortable for a few days. After that, it does get fairly warm. But being in Canada 90° weather doesn't last more than a few days! Insulation and sealing make a big difference.

 

[dcg9381]

1) So far I have 2 quotes, one at $2500 and one at $5400... Both are well recommended long time electricians in the area, a $2,900 price difference seems very strange, so I'll probably move forward with the lower quote.

Make sure the details are the same. Personally, I'd want him to put in the main panel (or at least a downstream disconnect) so you can do your own wiring. Around here pulling the meter means talking to the POCO.

2) Insulation- I've gone around in circles on this several times, but it seems like closed cell spray foam is the way to go. I have 4 quotes for this, ranging from $10,400 to $13,900. Only one of them has given me an actual written quote on a company letterhead and has also been very responsive to questions. It's also not the most expensive quote, so I'm leaning that direction, but appreciate any feedback on how to pick the right foam installer, as I gather that's where things can go wrong.

Might be overhead. Ask what foam product they use, make sure application in inches is the same. Be specific with the installer about wanting to cover the trusses. Is covering the concrete included? Because you definitely want to do that.

Some of it is more nuanced. IE, the skill of the applicator.

4) HVAC - With my budget estimates, it looks like I might have enough to do a couple DIY mini-splits... My plan is to start with either a single 48k or 2 24k units. I'm in North Carolina, so temps are usually not too extreme, and I'm mostly wanting to have enough capacity to stay above freezing in winter, and below boiling in summer, as well as some humidity control. I'm leaning toward the 2x24k units, and if I find that's insufficient I can add a 3rd later.

I have the same size garage, lesser insulation, more extreme climate. 2 x 24K was my choice due to price point per BTU and I decided I could always add another. In mild times of the year, you could just run one unit.

You'll need units that have heating capacity in cold weather. I missed that on mine. They certainly make them. And I can't speak to BTUs for heating, I ended up adding another 40k BTU in propane, but portable as we don't get many cold days.

1) internet- I have a mesh system in the house and a high window in the garage facing the house, so I'm planning to get another satellite unit. I can get the house wifi in the garage already if a door is open but not when it's all closed up, so this seems like it should work pretty well

You need to get an access point inside. Steel buildings attenuate the **** out of wifi signals. Running a wire would be best, but if you can mesh from an outside antenna to an inside AP, that would probably work.

2) door openers- I have the cheap roll-up doors. It looks like the specific openers for these are around $500/ea (or of dubious quality from Amazon etc), but it looks like a lot of people have had success with mounting a traditional garage door opener vertically, and linking 2 doors. Lowe's has a 1hp Craftsman for <$250, so I could do all 4 doors with 2 openers for ~$500.

Roll up doors ****. I have them too. Insulated panel is the way to go. I don't use openers though.

So what am I missing?

Gutters might help if you're having any water intrusion, slope on that looks a little dubious at the doors. If you add a "sidewalk" make sure they slope it.

 

[MackMan]

Nice place you got there! Before any HVAC, you need to get some insulation in there. A well sealed building will heat and cool much more effectively, making the overall use work better. Cars will store better. I have a small shop (30x32) that is well insulated and sealed as much as possible. I live in Canada, so it isn't as hot as some places. I don't have a/c, but in 90° summer, it will stay perfectly comfortable for a few days. After that, it does get fairly warm. But being in Canada 90° weather doesn't last more than a few days! Insulation and sealing make a big difference.

Yes, insulation is definitely on the list before HVAC.

 

[MackMan]

Thanks for the thoughts, see comments in insert.

Make sure the details are the same. Personally, I'd want him to put in the main panel (or at least a downstream disconnect) so you can do your own wiring. Around here pulling the meter means talking to the POCO.

- Code here requires the meter, main box, one outlet, a light above/near the interior braker panel, and an exterior light over the man-door.
Both electricians covered that as well as pulling a permit. I think the higher one is including 2 overhead lights (with the idea that I can daisy-chain off of those) but that doesn't seem like an extra $3k worth of value. But in general yes the idea is to have the main breaker panel installed.

Might be overhead. Ask what foam product they use, make sure application in inches is the same. Be specific with the installer about wanting to cover the trusses. Is covering the concrete included? Because you definitely want to do that.

Some of it is more nuanced. IE, the skill of the applicator

- All quotes are 2" closed cell. What concrete do I want to cover? The only concrete I have is the slab.. But maybe I'm missing something.

I have the same size garage, lesser insulation, more extreme climate. 2 x 24K was my choice due to price point per BTU and I decided I could always add another. In mild times of the year, you could just run one unit.

You'll need units that have heating capacity in cold weather. I missed that on mine. They certainly make them. And I can't speak to BTUs for heating, I ended up adding another 40k BTU in propane, but portable as we don't get many cold days.

-The units I'm looking at are 19k heat per unit. I also have a 50k kerosene heater that I can use if it gets really cold.

You need to get an access point inside. Steel buildings attenuate the **** out of wifi signals. Running a wire would be best, but if you can mesh from an outside antenna to an inside AP, that would probably work.

-I'm pretty sure my satellite idea will work. Wired would be a real pain.

Roll up doors ****. I have them too. Insulated panel is the way to go. I don't use openers though.

-I like the clear overhead space, but either way new doors aren't in the budget, so I'll have to make the best of what I've got

Gutters might help if you're having any water intrusion, slope on that looks a little dubious at the doors. If you add a "sidewalk" make sure they slope it.

No problems with water intrusion due to slope, but I do have a lot of "splash back" off the roof, so yes gutters are certainly on my list. Haven't got any quotes though.

 

[dcg9381]

- All quotes are 2" closed cell. What concrete do I want to cover? The only concrete I have is the slab.. But maybe I'm missing something.

You want to have them cover the slab in plastic. Around here they won't do that automatically.. If they don't do it'll get foam all over the slab.

Did you quote open cell? It's cheaper per R value, but obviously takes up more space. (no structural value, passes water, blah blah)

-I'm pretty sure my satellite idea will work. Wired would be a real pain.

OK, so we can't hardwire to the shop, I get it.

Wireless mesh will work (if you've got signal with the garage door open), but you're going to want to wireless mesh to an outside AP and then WIRE it to an inside AP, if that makes sense... I mean absolutely throw a mesh point out there and "try" it on a single, but it doesn't work very well for me:

I have an AP inside the shop. 10' away from the outside skin of that building, the signal goes to ****. I had to install an outside AP. The steel attenuates the **** out of wifi.

 

[geneg]

Little over 11 years ago I bought a stand alone garage... about a month before my first son was born

My new garage

Been pondering this for a while http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217640 Just got back from closing, now I just need to get done with work so I can start the clean-up and then set-up! P.O. was closing shop and I got all the "stuff" you see inside for an extra $500, seemed pretty...

www.garagejournal.com

It was great to have the space, and equipment, but being off-site really limited how much I could use it, very hard to just go over for a 10 min job, or just enjoy being there. So a couple of years ago I made the decision to sell that one and build a garage at my house. Of course that meant moving all my stuff somewhere, so I ended up deciding to do the slab & shell of new building, then sell the other garage, and then finish the new garage. Well family life being what it is, that's been a slow process, so about a year and a half after getting the new building up I finally have a contract on the old garage, expect to be closing very soon, and will finally have funds freed up to (mostly) finish the new garage!

So this is a bare bones "carport" style structure now. No electric (been running battery tenders off an extension cord across the driveway) no insulation, heat, etc.
50x40 with 4 9x9 doors, 1 6x6 door and a man door and a few of the basic single pane windows.. nothing special, but the idea was to maximize covered square footage, then upgrade later as time/budget/need allowed.

Slab is 4" 4,000psi, but I did have a 13x4 section poured at 6" with rebar, for a lift.

I'll probably start some separate threads for various aspects of the project, but figured a central thread for ideas or recommendations of things I haven't thought of yet would be nice. Going to start with the "big ticket" items that would be hard to save up for later

1) Electric service- Plan here is to have electrician install meter and minimum required for code so I can get going. Will probably have him go ahead and run my 200v for the lift as well. So far I have 2 quotes, one at $2500 and one at $5400... Both are well recommended long time electricians in the area, a $2,900 price difference seems very strange, so I'll probably move forward with the lower quote. Once I have the basic setup I'll probably do the rest of the wiring myself, as it will be easy enough to piecemeal along the way. I'll obviously need to add some lights etc pretty soon

2) Insulation- I've gone around in circles on this several times, but it seems like closed cell spray foam is the way to go. I have 4 quotes for this, ranging from $10,400 to $13,900. Only one of them has given me an actual written quote on a company letterhead and has also been very responsive to questions. It's also not the most expensive quote, so I'm leaning that direction, but appreciate any feedback on how to pick the right foam installer, as I gather that's where things can go wrong. I also need the seal kits for the doors, which will be around $800 I think. I may upgrade windows later but that's not part of my scope now

3) 10k ALI lift - I had a cheap lift in my old building but it's such a game changer. This is almost higher on my list than the insulation, but it looks like I can do both OK, so I don't really have to rank them. See separate thread here

4) HVAC - With my budget estimates, it looks like I might have enough to do a couple DIY mini-splits... My plan is to start with either a single 48k or 2 24k units. I'm in North Carolina, so temps are usually not too extreme, and I'm mostly wanting to have enough capacity to stay above freezing in winter, and below boiling in summer, as well as some humidity control. I'm leaning toward the 2x24k units, and if I find that's insufficient I can add a 3rd later.

Smaller projects - things that aren't necessarily coming out of the "capital" budget, and may even be years away..
1) internet- I have a mesh system in the house and a high window in the garage facing the house, so I'm planning to get another satellite unit. I can get the house wifi in the garage already if a door is open but not when it's all closed up, so this seems like it should work pretty well

2) door openers- I have the cheap roll-up doors. It looks like the specific openers for these are around $500/ea (or of dubious quality from Amazon etc), but it looks like a lot of people have had success with mounting a traditional garage door opener vertically, and linking 2 doors. Lowe's has a 1hp Craftsman for <$250, so I could do all 4 doors with 2 openers for ~$500.

3) Landscaping etc... The garage is about even with my house in a residential area, and looks a bit "naked" Also had a fair amount of backfill required to get a level pad, so want to do some erosion control

So what am I missing? Sure lots of little details like I'll probably get a big TV, and a small fridge etc, but looking more at the basics right now

Nice building. I like the "motorcycle" door idea. No need to open the side of the building to get something small in or out.
Personal recomendation for the gutters- don't get aluminum gutters for a steel roof. Your building supplier should have all of the correct parts available & add more downspouts than you think it needs.

 

[Shadowdog500]

I agree that you need to check on why the electrical quotes from two reputable electricians are so different. One Is less than half of the other.
My concern is that one or both don’t fully understand the scope of the project.

 

[AC-WC]

Your steps 1-4 are the correct process. Because of your metal structure you will have to do conduit to be both safe and within code. Probably best to do 100amp min. Do NOT do insulation and then the electric. Foam is your best bet for your building. Not familiar with the mechanics of the roll up doors but you can definitely do a standard OH door opener along the roof line. I had 4 quotes before I got the right guy/company. He was also the least expensive. One said I couldn't do it.

 

[CraigStu]

Be sure the electrician installs a breaker box from a common manufacturer like SquareD. Decades ago I did what you are thinking of for a small rental garage area. The guy put in some off brand box and I had to drive 30min to buy a breaker for it. I'd decide where you will buy your electrical supplies, find out which brand breakers they sell, and insist on that brand.

 

[MackMan]

Be sure the electrician installs a breaker box from a common manufacturer like SquareD. Decades ago I did what you are thinking of for a small rental garage area. The guy put in some off brand box and I had to drive 30min to buy a breaker for it. I'd decide where you will buy your electrical supplies, find out which brand breakers they sell, and insist on that brand.

This is interesting. I've had 2 houses built in 1973 with whatever breaker box they used then, and not had any trouble buying breakers from Lowe's. I just assumed breakers were a universal format! Will have to ask.

 

[dcg9381]

Do NOT do insulation and then the electric. Foam is your best bet for your building.

If he's using closed cell, he may very well get away with doing the foam first. As long as the foam isn't sprayed on the outside of the vertical posts, you can still run conduit. He will want to get his his electrical penetrations in first.

It really depends on HOW you're running the wires. I don't like wires in foam if I can avoid it, which you usually can with steel construction.

I did foam, then electrical, then AC, but all my electrical was in PVC conduit and foam did not extend out beyond the gurts. I just tied ply into the gurts and ran conduit on top of that...

 

[Model A Fan]

Since electrical code is the standard, I'd figure out why two electricians for the same project and materials are priced so vastly different. The difference is enough to cover the cost of LOTS of wire and outlets. If you're just having your main panel put in, that seems to be a lot ($5400) for that.

If you're so inclined, I'd install the panel yourself and just have him "connect" it to the power feeder. Then you can wire it how/where you want. Electrical is "easy" if you have a forum full of knowledgeable people (here), are patient, and take the time to learn. Post pics, ask questions, measure once-cut twice sorta thing