Finishing my garage shell, advice/tips?

[Fry]

I just bought a house with a 600sq ft garage, 24x24 with a small 5x5 cubby hole.

I want to insulate it, get it wired and drywalled.

I work tons of overtime in the summer and have no time to work on my hotrod so I need somewhere to work in the winter.

This summer I'm taking some holidays and my father who has carpentry experience is going to come down and help me finish as much as we can in a week.

I don't have any house experience, I'm a mechanic but with this house I'm wanting to do as much as I can on my own.

Anyway I've been searching lots and have found out basically what I want for plugins, lights, etc. But I'm thinking that I'd probably get a electrician to come in and do the wiring. My house is pretty much maxed out for service, so running a serperate service to the garage might have to be done. The local light and power does that, so that shouldn't be an issue.

How much would I be looking to pay an electrician? I'm thinking about a couple 110 plugins per wall (8 total), maybe two outside, from what I've read those 4' T8 should be alright probably 12 of those, 4 220 plugin 2 close together one further down that wall for the Air compressor and one on the opposite wall and an outdoor motion light. I have no idea what materials or labour will cost, any guesses? I'm not sure if I would tackle this with my dad or not. Depending on total cost and time we have I guess.

The insulating and drywalling stuff seems easy. Not sure what to do for the roof, would you run those lights flush in the ceiling or from drops? Its 10' walls. I've looked on here but everyones garage seems so radical its hard to know what you do with a budget garage. I need to insulate the roof, do you just get that stuff you blow in? I've heard about it but don't know about it. Do I need to do anything special around the lights has to not have insulation get to close to it?

I doubt after all this I can afford to heat it this year, I have a LP construction heater I used in my last rented garage that might suffice for now.

Is there anything I should consider doing? Or you think I am missing?

 

[kbs2244]

I just bought a house with a 600sq ft garage, 24x24 with a small 5x5 cubby hole.

I want to insulate it, get it wired and drywalled.

I work tons of overtime in the summer and have no time to work on my hotrod so I need somewhere to work in the winter.

This summer I'm taking some holidays and my father who has carpentry experience is going to come down and help me finish as much as we can in a week.

I don't have any house experience, I'm a mechanic but with this house I'm wanting to do as much as I can on my own.

Anyway I've been searching lots and have found out basically what I want for plugins, lights, etc. But I'm thinking that I'd probably get a electrician to come in and do the wiring. My house is pretty much maxed out for service, so running a serperate service to the garage might have to be done. The local light and power does that, so that shouldn't be an issue.

How much would I be looking to pay an electrician? I'm thinking about a couple 110 plugins per wall (8 total), maybe two outside, from what I've read those 4' T8 should be alright probably 12 of those, 4 220 plugin 2 close together one further down that wall for the Air compressor and one on the opposite wall and an outdoor motion light. I have no idea what materials or labour will cost, any guesses? I'm not sure if I would tackle this with my dad or not. Depending on total cost and time we have I guess.

The insulating and drywalling stuff seems easy. Not sure what to do for the roof, would you run those lights flush in the ceiling or from drops? Its 10' walls. I've looked on here but everyones garage seems so radical its hard to know what you do with a budget garage. I need to insulate the roof, do you just get that stuff you blow in? I've heard about it but don't know about it. Do I need to do anything special around the lights has to not have insulation get to close to it?

I doubt after all this I can afford to heat it this year, I have a LP construction heater I used in my last rented garage that might suffice for now.

Is there anything I should consider doing? Or you think I am missing?

Whoa! Slow down guy. As someone famous once said "Rome wasn't built in a day." He was trying to say "Take it a bit at a time."

First, insulate. Regular batts tacked to the wall and roof joists will do wonders. Personaly, I like 1/2 inch plywood for the bottom 4 feet of the wall rather then drywall. It is tougher and you can screw thing into it.

Second, there is the electric. There is a whole lot of legal involved here. Get someone that knows it. If you don't know someone, then at least get someone you can trust. If you are a wrench turner you may be used to it just being there, but there is a lot going on behind the walls. Pull back and think about what you are going to be having going on at any one time. It is way too easy to over build here. You have to think about total load AT ANY ONE TIME. I would expect 2 110 VAC outlets per wall would be enough convinence and load expection for you.

An air compressor may be an exception, depending on it's size and amount of air you use. If you have a big one and use a lot of air tools then a seprate circuit maybe the way to go. If you are just doing an ocasional tire, take a break when it cycles on. Long air hoses are cheap.

Then, lighting. Again, you may be over specifying yourself. I have 6 double 4 foot lights in my 24 x 24. I was used to computer room lighting on my 8 to 4 job. Real bright. But I am happy with what I have. One over the bench, 5 around the room. One in each corner and one in the center. I have a portable construction style work light if I need it for somthing special.

Your "cubbyhole" may be someting to think about. Will you be using it while other things are going on in the shop? Computers, etc.? Then seprate eletric may be the way to go. It will avoid what they call "line spikes" and things. If you are just going to use it as a place to keep all the manuals and books we should keep, then a 4 foot double tube should be enough.

Remember this is a home shop for fun. not a workplace. You owe yourself the slower pace.

Congratulations on getting to this place in life.

 

[Fry]

lol I might sound like I'm jumping in head first but I do have 6 months before I do any work. I'd like to have the electrical done before I insulate and drywall to have it behind the walls.

The 220 is so I could have a plasma cutter and the welder plugged in side by side so I don't have to keep reaching underneath the bench to keep swapping plugs. The one on the other wall would be for welding on the other end. I noticed in my last garage I would have to run an extension cord across everytime I weld and I noticed the added resistance.

I want to do fair amount of fabbing in my garage, weld, cut, grind, torch, etc. yes it is supposed to be fun but at the same time I'm used to working in a huge shop all day, and to come home to an insufficent garage would ****.

For lighting thats what I meant 6 4' double lights, or 12 lights total.
The cubbyhole will just be for the air compressor and storage I'd imagine. I'm thinking I will reserve one corner for an office type area. I'm planning on treating this like a large one car garage.

I know about having to get a permit for the electrical, which from what I can find on the net about my local area that I might have to submit a blueprint and have it inspected. I'm just wondering if its too expensive that in 6 months I could read alot on it and figure pretty much what I'd need to know. I do know the basics of electricity, ohms law, watts law and the like and how it relates.

Thanks for the help thus far.

 

[VvvJRvvV]

Electrical pricing will depend on your area. If you are new to the area, try talking to your neighbors. Get estimates from a few electrical companies. In my area, you are only allowed to add a seperate service to your garage if it is going to be used for commercial purposes and it comes in a seperate bill. The service is where you are going to run into the money of this, wiring the interior of the garage itself won't be that bad.

Draw up a plan for the interior and get some estimates.

 

[Fry]

Good idea about talking to the neighbours. I know one guy just put up his garage. A guy at work said his father in law has a separte service to his garage and I know he doesn't run a business out of it, just works on his own cars. The only thing that would not be enjoyable would be the second bill and I'd imagine I'd get a second service fee ($15/month). Regarding the second service the local light & powers website says

"Also, consumers may request for underground secondary service from an overhead distribution system (existing areas serviced overhead). The Light and Power Department shall supply and install the service entrance cable from the meter socket to the supply. A flat fee of $550.00 for the first 20 meters and a cost of $10.00 per meter thereafter for underground services in overhead areas."

I will have to get some estimate, being of the new year. I just don't want to look stupid or get taken by someone.
How do I go about figuring what I need for amps?
Just like mentioned earlier what the total load at one time is?
I guess max would be plasma, air, lights, stereo.

I am not against upgrading my house and trenching out to the garage. Its alot more work though. Then I could run a gas line out, maybe cable & phone line, but I am on wireless so that doesn't really matter.

Thanks for the help guys.

 

[VvvJRvvV]

Another option would be to increase the size of your meter can, use double lugs, come off of that to the house and also to a disconnect for the garage. From the disconnect, run out to the garage panel. Panel size is going to depend on what you are going to use out in your garage. You mentioned you have a compressor, welder, etc..

If you have all of this equipment you plan on using out in the garage, you may end up having to go with a 200 amp service in the garage.

If your neighbor just put up a garage, see who he used, if he was happy with their work. Ask him if you can look at the work they did, make sure the work looks ok to you.

In your previous post, you mentioned meters. This may change everything as it sounds as if you are not in the US.

 

[Fry]

No I'm in Canada. It may change things but just looking for general advice, nothing gospel. I know I have to do some research locally with the L&P & electricians. But would like to be able to go in with a bit of knowledge.
The shop I work at just build a 16000sq ft shop and I know the electricians did a decent job on it.
Interesting about running off the meter to the garage. I didn't know that would be a possibility.

 

[VvvJRvvV]

You would have to upsize the meter, well, you would here in the US. Then you would have to set a disconnect right next to the meter. In my area, the power company normally sizes the wire that they run to homes larger than what is actually needed according to their code. They run on a different set of rules than everyone else.

At my house, I am actually going to put the service (320 amp meter can) on the garage, set a disconnect (200 amp) beside the meter and then run a new feed to the house. House and garage will both have 200 amp panels.

 

[Fry]

My house currently only has a 70amp breaker panel. Not sure how to find out what the wires in are rated for.
What would be advantages or disadvantages to running electrical on top of the drywall, in conduit? We have that in the shop at work with the metal walls. I could see it being easier to run more wires later but theres a added up front cost.
Also looking at the double car garage thread I noticed some have their lights plugged into recepticales in the roof and some hard wired right in. Same question, advantages or disadvantages? I think hanging the lights like pictured in the thread would be the easiest/most convient.
Thanks for the help.

 

[trovato]

I did wiring inside the walls before sheetrock. Cheaper and easier. Then, whatever I needed for expansion and afterthoughts, I did in conduit on the surface.

 

[ZRX61]

The 220 is so I could have a plasma cutter and the welder plugged in side by side so I don't have to keep reaching underneath the bench to keep swapping plugs.

I have mine on separate circuits 220V/40A (50A wiring) for the MM210 & 220V/15A for the 375 Spectrum

 

[z28toz06]

My house currently only has a 70amp breaker panel. Not sure how to find out what the wires in are rated for.
What would be advantages or disadvantages to running electrical on top of the drywall, in conduit? We have that in the shop at work with the metal walls. I could see it being easier to run more wires later but theres a added up front cost.
Also looking at the double car garage thread I noticed some have their lights plugged into recepticales in the roof and some hard wired right in. Same question, advantages or disadvantages? I think hanging the lights like pictured in the thread would be the easiest/most convient.
Thanks for the help.

If you are looking to do all you say, you are much better off getting a separate service to the garage. 200 amp would be the minimum I would think. You don't say what zone you are in so its hard to advise you on insulation.

Get an electrical contractor to give you a price on bringing a service in, Panel, riser etc. Then have him give you a price on the 220 work for the equipment and a separate price for doing the outlets, which you can never have too much of in my estimation! Put the wires in the walls, if you are going to do the air lines on the wall later there will be less **** in your way then. Be up front with him and ask him if he will do it in stages.

It sounds like you want to do it right, so do some measurements, lay out the compressor, benches, cabinets etc so you know everything will fit in there. There's no senese in planning all this equipment on one wall and find out aftrewards that it won't all fit.

I do all my own wiring, then I have the electrician bring everything into the service panel and tie it all in. (that's if I am not too anxious or bored, then I'll do some of that myself also). you could always learn to do at least the outlets and run them yourself and ask him to tie them in?

Lighting is subjective also but I can't remember anyone saying, damn I wish I hadn't put so much lighting in here! Pick your fixtures and find out the square footage coverage of them and the height they are suggested at and figure out how many you need. If cost is a factor put receptacles in the ceiling and as funds allow add them as you can. This way there is no bringing an electrician in everytime you want another fixture put in.

Good luck and have fun with it!

 

[Fry]

thanks for the advice. I have drawn it out where everything is going to go. Good idea with the lights. I heard from a guy that just wired his garage and got his friend to do it that you can't wire 220 for a welder in the city here. I only have a 110v welder right now but plan on upgrading sooner than later. I also don't own a plasma right now but it is in my future so I'd like to plan for it. My meter says 200a on it, is there anyway to know what my wires or my service is to my house. I was just going by what the inspection guy said but I can't see 70A anywhere. If I could get away running from my house now and trenching a seperate service when I buy a plasma, since that seems to have the highest amp rating and would be in use with the compressor.
I do hope to do it right. I really had no idea where to start. I guess I'll talk to the city about services and permits. Not sure if I need one to insulate and drywall. I think I read that if I get an electrician that no permit/inspection is needed. I will re-draw my blue print and talk to an electrician right away too.
thanks for the help

 

[thefairlaneman]

You can save some money on windows if you dont cut the openings for them untill after you find the windows. That way if they have several at the local salvage /new surplus store you can buy them and make them fit. Most of the time the windows you use in a garage can vary with no problem

 

[Fry]

I have windows already in there. They are cheap crappy ones but they were already cut and there when I bought the place.

 

[kbs2244]

I am going with the idea of a seprate service for the garage. If you have that much equipment in your future, don't skimp on the power.
And do it before you do anything else. Wireing is easy to do on open walls, and a real expensive problem on insulated and paneled walls unless you can accept surface mounted conduit.
Mark out all the heavy duty outlets locations, the convience 110 outlets, including one by the door so you can pull an extention cord out into the drivway, and the work bench location. Around here code calls for an outlet for every 10 feet of wall. It is a good rule of thumb even iif it is not required. Have a pro do the install. If you can be there to help him out and answer any questions that come up, you can OK any of his improvment suggestions. You can learn a lot, and save some money by acting as a gofer.

 

[Fry]

thanks, good advice.

 

[Sokoloff]

And if you can't wire a 220V welder in your location, I bet you can wire a 220V oven or a 220V dryer or a 220V air compressor or 220V space heater or a 220V auto lift.

So, suddenly you're not planning on welding and plasma cutting there, but rather going to be cooking the missus's turkey in an oven while drying the clothes with the receptacle right next to it. At least, that's what the blueprints call for; everyone can change their mind down the road, right?

 

[kbs2244]

Sokoloff; that is often more of a zoneing question than a code one.
But, that said, the inspector often works hand in hand with the zoning people, so your point is well taken.
This may be more a summer kitchen and family renuion barn then a shop.
WInk, wink.
I would still go with a seprate service.
Keeping the house and toys seprate may be a bit on the conservitive side, but if one goes bad, you have the other.

 

[Fry]

Yeah I will just mention my imaginary parts washer and maybe a heater or my lift that I don't have lol.
I have scanned a copy of my drawing of my receptacle location. Its not finished but ready to my critiqued. I forgot a plug in in the roof for the garage door opener. I need to figure out amperes needed for each circuit. I just did a rough estimate on each.
The little cubbyhole with be where the compressor sits, along the same wall is where the work bench will be. Opposite corner will be a small corner desk, and them 6 of those double 4' lights.
The amperage needed for the compressor is 25A
plasma 40A but the welder is less and will be used on the same receptacle.
Not sure what the 120 ones will be, I can't see using more than one at a time other than a stereo or something, mostly just the grinder or drill. Rather go bigger just in case.

Lights I calculated 5A total but thats not with the garage door opener.
The one 120 receptacle with the arrow pointing out will be to for a block heater, not sure off hand the watts required for one. It won't be used until I make a driveway up to that side of the garage. Since my garage points right unto the back alley I have no off street parking but there is a plan to remedy that.

The 2 240 directly across from each other will be on the same circuit since they'd be used for the same thing, just welding on either side of the garage if need be.

I read on the L&P site that a dual socket meter is available for consumers, unsure if there'd be a price or whatnot with that, with my power being government run.
Thanks for all the help so far guys, I feel way further ahead already.

 

[1320stang]

Well, my compressor is a big 80 gal 2 stage job that calls for a 30A service, so you may want to upgrade that. I just wired it in last night, I have a 200A panel (you look at the amperage of the main at the top of the box to determine how big of a service you have) and I have about 500A of breakers in there. All my normal circuits are 20A, typically I've seen these as 15A circuits. You can set a new meter can with a new breaker panel and use the existing 70A panel as a sub panel fed from your new main.

I would wire the garage, plumb for air and plumb for a laundry tub if you have a plumbing wall before you insulate and rock. My layout is real similar to yours, but mirrored and my garage is 20'wide by 24' deep. My cubby is 8' wide and 10' deep and there's a door going outside where your 220v circuit is written there. I have a L shaped bench that runs along the back of the cubby and returns along that interior wall to the corner, on the other side of that wall is my laundry, so I have a sink on the corner in the cubby. My HVAC/water heater closet is at the front of the garage in the middle and the door into the house would be in the upper left hand corner of your drawing going to the left. My panelboard is about where the 25A text is in your cubby drawing (I have a 4" step up into my cubby, its the same level as the inside of the house) and my compressor sits in what would be the corner if the cubby weren't there. My outlet for the compressor is right below the box. I used 10ga romex to wire it.

Some suggestions, I agree with doing the bottom 4' of the walls with plywood, OSB or some other wood product. Put your outlets just above this, so the bottom of the outlet sits on top of the wood. My garage has outlets every 4', but they're 12" off the floor, sorta unuseable. I have 4' two bulb fixtures mounted at the top edge of the garage door when it is in the up position. I mounted outlets in the ceiling to plug these into as they're the cheap shop lights. They work pretty good as general lights, I have more concentrated fixtures towards the front of the garage.

You don't say what your desk will be used for, I plan on putting a computer in my cubby to access the internet when I have to look up some automotive stuff, instead of cleaning up, taking my shoes off then going inside the house to the family computer, you might want to add some Cat5 as well, another question would be do you need a spot for clean work? The reason I ask, I would think about maybe walling off the cubby and putting a door, put a bench across the back. The door would be at the interior corner and the compressor could sit in the new corner. You could probably scab some air from the house and condition that 5x5 space with a 6x6 outlet in the ceiling. The computer could sit in there and the area would be pretty dust free, grinding, welding and even plasma cutting create a lot of metal dust. That's just a suggestion.

Benches at the Air Force base we do a lot of work at have the electrical outlets right under the front lip of the bench. Makes a lot of sense if you think about it, no cords running across the bench. I totally forgot about this when I put my new outlets in above my bench, I'll probably put some outlet strips on the front edge and run the cords back to the old outlets below the bench.

You don't indicate where the doors and windows are in your drawing so it's tougher to give some ideas.

Larry

 

[boiler7904]

And if you can't wire a 220V welder in your location, I bet you can wire a 220V oven or a 220V dryer or a 220V air compressor or 220V space heater or a 220V auto lift.

So, suddenly you're not planning on welding and plasma cutting there, but rather going to be cooking the missus's turkey in an oven while drying the clothes with the receptacle right next to it. At least, that's what the blueprints call for; everyone can change their mind down the road, right?

If you're talking about a normal electric range, code will require you to have an exhaust hood and fan. With a dryer, they're going to want to see the vent provisions. Better off not showing it as a stove / range / dryer, etc. Depict the actual installation when submitting drawings for permit.

 

[Fry]

lots of stuff to think about. Sorry my drawing isn't complete, I have another one with work benches and stuff that shows the windows and stuff. The cubbyhole is on the north side of the garage. On the south wall all the way over to the east is the man door. By the side of the cubbyhole on the north wall is my vehicle door. There is a window on the south wall by the side of the door and one on the west wall in the middle.
I haven't thought of what I'd use the desk for. A computer would be nice later on. Interesting thought on the clean room.
Thanks for all the help guys!

 

[Aeroman]

is it required to submit permits for garage set ups? I did the wiring, insulation, and sheetrock myself in my garage, 20 something by 30 something feet.

 

[Fry]

for here it is, for wiring atleast. Not sure about the insulation and drywall stuff.