Fire Box on Overhead Door

[Mishael]

I could tell you the story but its pretty long so basically I have an Overhead Door at my school into my theatre and its attached to the fire system. There is a red box that i have not seen the contents of that, when a specific code is given, the box releases a solenoid which holds tension on two chains, one on either side of the door. Our fire system encountered an error and it released this box so the door was useless. The maintenance guy and myself drilled a new hole in the concrete blocks and pined the chains up so the door mechanism works but now the motor itself will not open the door, and when you press the close button (three button operator panel) it will close beyond the magnetic stop sensor in the floor. Our district is out of money so we cannot have any door technician come out to fix it until late july and this door is an absolute horrible thing to get open and closed using the chain drive because its 18 feet tall but we need to use it quite a bit. Any suggestions?

 

[K'ledgeBldr]

So, now you have two problems-
The opener itself and adding the remote?
Money and a school district- I think we all know how that goes. Especially those of us who have kids in school.

If waiting is out of the question (I'll assume that the district maintenance people are unable to fix and/or it's a parts cost issue)-
Brush up on your sales skills! Call your local Overhead Door franchisee, explain the situation (all of it) and see if they would barter the service for advertising at the stadium or gym.
The booster club(s) at the HS my kids go to- and I'm sure all booster clubs- do year around fundraising for sports and other school activities because school boards are stretched so thin when it comes to money. A lot of it comes from advertising of local businesses.
Another option- put out a SOS to parents. There could possibly be an electrician, engineer, mechanic, etc. that would volunteer their services.

Good Luck-

 

[NUTTSGT]

When the door was attached to the fire system, did it close when the fire alarm was going off ?

The way you have it now, does it close automatically when the alarm system activates like a typical fire door ?

If you have modified it to the point of it not close automatically, you've kinds screwed yourself legally. If something happens (fire) and somebody gets hurt because that door doesn't close because it's broke or your modification, a lawyer will have a heyday with this.


Your school district needs to find the money somewhere to get this door fixed properly, whether it takes a letter from the local fire official to literally put a fire under somebody's *** (school board/official)or not.

 

[BillK]

Mishael,
You dont have a location in your profile so I dont even know if you are in the States or elsewhere, but it might be worth calling the service company and asking them if they would donate thier time to look at the door and repair it in exchange for some good publicity in the community ??

Just a thought,

 

[AndyL]

Manufacturer will have manuals posted online in most cases - the manuals have reset instructions...

My hunch is you haven't reset spring tension, or reset the scout/firefly - both are quick fixes, but procedure varies by make/model...

As above, cya for liability reasons...

 

[wnstwolf]

Nutts sort of eluded to it as well as the others. the dissconnection of the fire box may have you open to non-coverage in the event of a fire. that door may be your building seperation and door must drop in event of a fire. Now that it is dissconnected you have a brech of the system. Careful here as insurance /school/lawyers are a bad mix..

 

[nehog]

I have to agree with others, considering the environment, you MUST fix this properly and ASAP as well... If it means dipping into other emergency budgets then that must happen--should anything happen the liability, and the possibility that people could face criminal charges is so great I'd run like hell to get away from that place. At a minimum you need to get an absolute, unconditional and irrevocable release and indemnification from liability. Just knowing there is a problem is serious, not fixing it is worse.

 

[was2]

Your district may have some access to "emergency funds" that they will not make readily available to campus staff. They may be made available to restore full operation of red fire door controls however. A notice from the fire marshal helps free those funds from the financial officer. So does a fine, usually directly to the building principal.

Better to spend on repairs than fines, and still be broken. Plus, don't even try imagining explaining to bereaving parents why the emergency fire door controls were disabled instead of repaired.

 

[RollUpDoor]

The door and the motor are not sync'd. The motor thinks the door is still in the open position and partial tension may have been released. There is sequence of steps that have to be done to reset the door or you may break the spring or not have the door properly drop in the event of a fire.

Make the case that it's a life safety issue. Now that you guys have fixed the cables to the wall it will not drop and seal the room if there is a fire.

 

[RollUpDoor]

That magnetic sensor on the floor is a security alarm contact. has nothing to do with the door.

 

[Toolman12]

Well when it comes to the safety of the kids money should not be an object some of the suggestions here are worth looking into

 

[Zeke]

Yes, when the bean counters hear "fire door" they better forget about not having any money. If the fire marshal comes out, your school is shut down. Any funds you receive by holding classes are gone at that point.

I thought school teachers and admins were smart.

 

[larry_g]

It would seem to me that if this is a fire door designed to close by the fire alarm and the door is bolted closed then all safety is preserved. The sky is not falling. The children will live to see another day. So call the fire dept, osha, the mothers club and raise all hell and the door will be bolted shut as that is the safe mode. Theater will be cancelled. Simple fix.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[NUTTSGT]

It would seem to me that if this is a fire door designed to close by the fire alarm and the door is bolted closed then all safety is preserved. The sky is not falling. The children will live to see another day. So call the fire dept, osha, the mothers club and raise all hell and the door will be bolted shut as that is the safe mode. Theater will be cancelled. Simple fix.

lg
no neat sig line

There's another problem that arises if it's bolted closed and it's marked as an EXIT. That's another big NO-NO.

 

[coolright]

That type of door on a stage if is not work will cause shut down of the whole building until fixed and operating corretly. It falls under life safety, building and fire code. Then need to close an a set time based on high and wide most need to fall (close) in under 5 seconds with no bounce of a single from the fire alarm system. That is not something you want to be playing with. If something goes wrong it could kill someone. I have seen these doors trip close not a pretty site when it happens. We used to work on doors in theatres all the time. Call the local theatre supply/rental company and ask them to send out there rigging inspector he'll tell you what truely needs to be done.

 

[fyrlt1]

There's another problem that arises if it's bolted closed and it's marked as an EXIT. That's another big NO-NO.

If it is an overhead door it should not be marked as an exit. There should be sufficient side hinged swinging doors to handle the occupant load. It is likely a smoke control door which must close upon activation in event of fire so people will have time to exit without being overcome by smoke.

 

[fyrlt1]

Anything you do to that door is an alteration of the fire alarm system. This you cannot legally do. Your first action should have been to go to the main fire alarm panel for a status indication. Depending on the status, you could have either reset the system, which is simple and legal, or called a qualified tech to troubleshoot it. A system 'error' should not have actuated the door. Sounds like maybe the smoke detector adjacent to the door may have been activated.

Many school boards employ service people that can work on alarms without calling an outside company.

 

[AndyL]

There's no guarantee its a fire alarm problem... with this make/model, a power bump can/will drop the door... this is why a lot of the manufacturers have gone to a new style opener in recent years that auto resets... drops on alarm or power outage, once restored - door reopens automatically, there are even a few now that can be installed in means of egress - with panic bars and temp sensors battery powered so it'll motor up to allow passage unless unsafe...

Ive got one building that has 50 fire doors, every few weeks power bump makes for a solid day of resets

 

[John in OH]

Before I retired from an electric utility company ... generation side ... there were several systems in the power plants that we NEVER, EVER screwed around with. Two of these systems were fire detection and fire protection. Whenever any problem arose with either of these systems we called the certified fire system tech company that was under contract with us to immediately correct the problem. No questions asked and no budget BS.

I can only imagine how much more rigorous this requirement must be for a school system. Others above have offered good suggestions regarding tech service in exchange for PR, but no delay should be taken in getting this door system back in proper service. The liability issue is far too sever to worry about the cost and, again as others have mentioned, I'm sure there is an "emergency fund" available for just this type of problem.

 

[fyrlt1]

There's no guarantee its a fire alarm problem... with this make/model, a power bump can/will drop the door... this is why a lot of the manufacturers have gone to a new style opener in recent years that auto resets... drops on alarm or power outage, once restored - door reopens automatically, there are even a few now that can be installed in means of egress - with panic bars and temp sensors battery powered so it'll motor up to allow passage unless unsafe...

Ive got one building that has 50 fire doors, every few weeks power bump makes for a solid day of resets

My assumtion is that the OP has an assembly occupancy with a typical fire alarm system. Therefore the door would be smoke - not heat actuated, and once activated could not be opened (except manually)until the alarm is restored. The door you describe sounds like something that would be used in an area where a high heat hazard may be the bigger concern. That door sounds interesting, do you have a name or link for it? Never saw one that auto reverses, but I'm sure they exist.

BTW, did you mean 50 'smoke' doors, instead of 'fire' doors? There are entire cities/counties that do not have 50 'fire' doors in them, much less in a single bldg.. if they are 'fire' doors, what kind of bldg. are they in?

 

[Mishael]

My first post about adding a remote and having this problem are completely separate doors, actually.
Seeing most of these responses saying basically the same thing, i just want to elaborate that this door is ALWAYS shut, we are in a theatre where there is an entirely different set of fire codes, the fire box itself was shot (the school has taken out at least 5 thus far because they were installed improperly and are not functioning at all) so we couldn't just reset it. The alarm panel gave a non-latching alert to large panels in our roof that open to vent smoke in case of fire. None of them opened but a sensor went bad and caused the fire box to activate, although the door was closed at the time and resetting everything did nothing. The alarm company came out and said at this point it is an opener problem, not a fire system problem anymore. As of right now, the door power shut off and the only way to operate the door is by the chain clutch. Trust me when i say, this door having any connection to the fire system is useless and unnecessary. If it is ever open when there is a fire, everyone who would be by it is trained to ensure it is closed. There is a hinged exit door not even a foot from it. The door is for accessory purposes only. The safety concerns are well founded but not needed. The fire system is zoned off so that this door is only closed for fire when the fire curtain is released.

 

[fyrlt1]

the door power shut off and the only way to operate the door is by the chain clutch. Trust me when i say, this door having any connection to the fire system is useless and unnecessary. If it is ever open when there is a fire, everyone who would be by it is trained to ensure it is closed. There is a hinged exit door not even a foot from it. The door is for accessory purposes only. The safety concerns are well founded but not needed. The fire system is zoned off so that this door is only closed for fire when the fire curtain is released.

Glad to hear that the fix may not be as expensive as it could have been. I would like to point out that the door being connected to the alarm is absolutely essential. That's the reason your exit door is right next to it, it is meant be closed and thus not usable as an exit. Fire/smoke control systems are designed so as not to rely on people to perform certain acts to ensure operation. Manually closing this door would be one of those acts. Someone may know how to close the door but that does not 'ensure' that it will be done. lives cannot depend on them actually performing the task. If you could just train and depend on people to always do the proper things you would not need a fire alarm at all.
Hope all goes well and you are able to do a timely repair.

 

[Mishael]

the door is only ever open when stuff is being moved through it and it is immediately closed afterwards

 

[fyrlt1]

the door is only ever open when stuff is being moved through it and it is immediately closed afterwards

I'll say it a different way. The local authority does not have the ability to oversee whether or not you utilize your building in a responsible way. How you choose to use the door is up to you. How the public is protected is up to them. Unless you want to pay for a F.D. representative to come out each time you open the door and confirm that you immediately close it, then this is what you are left with.

Do you want the management of the restaurant, movie theater, church or department store or mall that you take your family to be the one to make decisions regarding what level of safety they will provide, based on how necessary they feel it is? Those schoolkids' parents feel the same way about you when their children are in your theater. I doubt anyone would want their family's safety be subject to someone elses' budgetary constraints or their perceived level of public responsibility.

 

[AndyL]

BTW, did you mean 50 'smoke' doors, instead of 'fire' doors? There are entire cities/counties that do not have 50 'fire' doors in them, much less in a single bldg.. if they are 'fire' doors, what kind of bldg. are they in?

Canadian vs US fire code... they're 3hr fire rated, cover the electrical room double doors... its a lovely job involving crawling around in sheetrocked ceilings

The ciw line is my preference, the m100 and Fireguard, Wayne Dalton has some so do most manufacturers now...

http://www.cornelliron.com/fire.html

 

[fyrlt1]

This will make good reading.........in the morning. thanks

 

[Mishael]

after further investigation, the hook above the door bypassing the fire box is to prevent rattling. The counterweights on the door that allow the door to drop do not work to begin with. the chains that hold up the counterweight is slack and the weight will not fall any further and im not sure why. as of right now, the door will not open and whoever posted earlier saying that the door needs to be reset, it does indeed. I dont know how to reset the action so the door (when opened) stops from closing at about 2/3rds open.