Fire suppression & Smoke Detectors

[climb.on]

After seeing the post about the guy's buddy who shop went up in smoke...

What do you guys do for fire suppression systems or smoke detectors in your shops? Particularly interested in those who have detached shops and can't tie the smoky in with your house system. Smoke alarm doesn't do much good if no one is there to hear it.

 

[Musicinabottle]

I worked in a shop that had these 1 or 2 gallon sprinklers suspended from the ceiling. They were essentially small tanks that could be removed for recharging, and easily put back up. If I were doing a new shop and house, I'd use the interconnect wire to route back to my house and one of its smoke detectors. Otherwise, there must be a way to connect the inter connect to an alarm outside the garage, or wireless to something in the house.

 

[ard]

Smoke/Fire detectors arent for saving buildings.

Put in a sprinkler system if you want to suppress.

Get an insurance policy that will pay a lump sump settlement. AND take pictures/videos of all your items.

 

[Aaron_W]

With the money some of you guys have ******* in your shop buildings and equipment, it would be worth looking into a commercial fire protection system.

It will probably knock something off of your insurance as well.

As ard says a detection system is mainly to get people out of the building. Even if you are next door in your house when it goes off are you prepared to fight the fire that might be in the building? Let a sprinkler system take that risk. It's not like the movies, most systems only trigger the head immediately over the fire, not all that are in the building.

Also good to look at your habits. Do you have defensible space around the building? It sounds like the shop in the other post burned because a grass fire got to it, not a fire that started inside.

Do you have a fire extinguisher, know how to use it and keep it maintained?

Do you store your flammables properly, containment and a fire resistant locker? Keep dirty rags in a metal container? Clean up wood shavings and saw dust?

Do you take a walk around your shop before leaving for the day if you were doing any hot work?

Fires rarely just happen.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Typically, smoke detectors aren't used in a garage since they can be fooled by car exhaust or other things when you're working out there. A rate of rise heat detector is a better choice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_detector Even with a detached garage, it's a good idea to run cable and conduit and tie it into your home system if possible - I did.

 

[engineer2]

I'd consider building my own fire sprinkler system. Sprinkler heads are cheap. If it won't ever freeze, you could have a very simple wet system. If it might freeze, things get a little more complicated with building a dry system.

 

[ard]

^ If you have a fire and a home made system is triggered, will insurance pay for the water damage?

 

[ChaseDE]

A dry pipe system is quite safe as far as false alarms go and pretty easy to draw up with a little studying. It won't be to code but it could help. That or hire a contractor to do it.


I designed fire sprinkler systems for 5 years after high school, definitely not rocket science.

A dry system only has water in the riser up to a dry pipe valve. The vale is held shut by air pressure in the system that is maintained by a jockey pump (small air compressor). The rest of the system is sealed and ~air tight~.

When I sprinkler head gets hot enough to pop, typically just that 1 pops initially, the air pressure in the system drops out which opens the pipe valve and allows water into the system, the water makes its way to that heads outlet and sprays.

If more heads continue to pop, more spray as the water equalizes to the next branch.

Heads come in a handful of temps, 155F -ish IIRC is pretty standard for non-industrial.

Piping is black threaded sch 40 or sometimes thinwall victualic systems.

Heads are typically spaced 10'x10' depending on the zoning and need, branches are typically 1" for a few heads, then 1 1/4", 1 1/2" depending on the amount of heads per branch. There are hydraulic calcs involved, still not hard math.

Inspectors test, in most states is a branch at the further end from the water source that runs to the ground and out the building with a ball valve on it. remove the plug and open the valve. stopwatch is started and it should take no more then 60 seconds for water to run out of the valve.

** I carried a NICET level 3 license back then, things have changed im sure but that is the basics, at least for Delaware, I am not liable for any of this hehe **

 

[ddawg16]

A majority of fires are easily avoidable.
What are the most common causes? Typically bad house keeping. Oiled rags in a pile...combustibles near welding....electrical.

Almost all of the above are totally preventable.

Keep oil paints and solvents in a metal cabinet....preferably outside.

Keep those oily rags in a metal can.

Don't weld near rags.

Store gasoline outside.

Etc, etc.

 

[Higgins]

Back in IL, they were installing "Dry" systems in some of the new condo's and the risers were in an off-white, or cream colored pipes out in Kane County.

As were were located in a Rural area, response times were 10-14 minutes, and by that time the house would be gone. Several of the Car Folks purchased some 400 gallon storage cubes, and installed dry systems with sprinklers in the utility rooms, furnace area as well as the garages.

Once we get settled in down here in TN, I might do the same thing, as responce times are 20-25 minutes or greater !!

 

[NUTTSGT]

If you want sprinklers,you need a water source that can be pump/pressurized, even when the power is out. You'll also need some heat to keep the system from freezing. Even having a dry system, you'll need some heat in the riser room.

If you do have a "false" sprinkler activation, like mentioned above, will your insurance cover it ? Until you try to put wedges in a flowing sprinkler head, you would not believe how much water comes out of that little sprinkler head.


I have a few extinguishers, no smoke detectors, a wood burner, OSB walls/ceilings and a decent insurance policy. If I have a fire and I'm not home, it might go unnoticed till it's too late, then lose all.

Probably the best thing to do if you have a really nice garage/shop is to come to terms with it right now. If you have a fire, you're probably going to lose everything. That's just being honest.

 

[ptschram]

If you want sprinklers,you need a water source that can be pump/pressurized, even when the power is out. You'll also need some heat to keep the system from freezing. Even having a dry system, you'll need some heat in the riser room.

If you do have a "false" sprinkler activation, like mentioned above, will your insurance cover it ? Until you try to put wedges in a flowing sprinkler head, you would not believe how much water comes out of that little sprinkler head.


I have a few extinguishers, no smoke detectors, a wood burner, OSB walls/ceilings and a decent insurance policy. If I have a fire and I'm not home, it might go unnoticed till it's too late, then lose all.

Probably the best thing to do if you have a really nice garage/shop is to come to terms with it right now. If you have a fire, you're probably going to lose everything. That's just being honest.

The only reason I can sleep is insurance

Tools, equipment, machinery are covered for $200k plus replacement cost of building

 

[texasprd]

A majority of fires are easily avoidable.
What are the most common causes? Typically bad house keeping. Oiled rags in a pile...combustibles near welding....electrical.

Almost all of the above are totally preventable.

Keep oil paints and solvents in a metal cabinet....preferably outside.

Keep those oily rags in a metal can.

Don't weld near rags.

Store gasoline outside.

Etc, etc.

Properly/Completely extinguish outside fires - don't leave them smoldering...

 

[ItsNemo]

I have an attached garage, what I've thought about doing is putting in two smoke detectors hard wired together...one in the garage, one in the house (basically on the other side of the wall) but not tied into the rest of the house. Then in the garage put a light switch that turns them on/off. This way I could turn the smoke detectors on when I have concerns (like finished up a day of welding and came inside) but turn them off when I'm actually making smoke or moving vehicles that would be false alarms otherwise. The other advantage is if the one in the house goes off while I'm in the garage, I'd be able to hear it from the garage.

I can't see this as being a code violation of any sort right? It's separate from the actual code required ones in the house but would still give me some indication of smoke in either place. If my rag bucket lit up or something was smoldering I'd hope the detector in the garage would go off with enough time for me to get out there and hit it with an extinguisher?

 

[ddawg16]

I'm a big fan of wired smoke detectors.....not batteries to keep changing.

For a garage, especially if it's attached to the house, use a combo unit....one that detect CO and Smoke.

I have only battery powered ones in my garage at the moment. When time permits, I'll be adding a hardwired one.

For those of you who don't have 3-wire setups for your smokes....they do make wireless interconnected models. So when one goes off, the others sound off.

Also be aware....

CO units have a finite life.....typically 7 years. They have to be replaced after that.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I'm a big fan of wired smoke detectors.....not batteries to keep changing.

For a garage, especially if it's attached to the house, use a combo unit....one that detect CO and Smoke.

I have only battery powered ones in my garage at the moment. When time permits, I'll be adding a hardwired one.

For those of you who don't have 3-wire setups for your smokes....they do make wireless interconnected models. So when one goes off, the others sound off.

Also be aware....

CO units have a finite life.....typically 7 years. They have to be replaced after that.

Hardwired smoke detectors should still have batteries...battery back up when the power goes out. We've been on a few calls with detectors needing new batteries.

Some detectors are wireless maybe blue toothed, not sure.

 

[ItsNemo]

Hardwired smoke detectors should still have batteries...battery back up when the power goes out. We've been on a few calls with detectors needing new batteries.

Some detectors are wireless maybe blue toothed, not sure.

Also a good idea to have at least one battery only one outside the sleeping areas. Power surge could technically wipe out all of the detectors in one shot and you might not notice for a few weeks/months depending how often you check your detectors.

 

[Aaron_W]

CO units have a finite life.....typically 7 years. They have to be replaced after that.

Smoke detectors also have a life expectancy. The difference being that the more common ionization type get more sensitive as they age. This results in more false alarms not missed fires.

They are selling disposable smoke detectors now with a 10 year battery life which is a fairly nice feature. By the time the battery dies it is time for a new detector anyway. The benefits of hard wired with the easy installation of battery units.

I've also seen ones that can sync up to your cell phone. I assume you have to be nearby, probably blue tooth. I don't think they have any that actually call you using cellular service although auto dial alarm panels exist.

 

[6768rogues]

The inspectors test connection is the same size office as a sprinkler head, so it simulates one head fusing. Not only do you time how long to get water from a dry system, but you also time how long on a wet or dry system for the water flow alarm to activate.
I avoid dry systems if possible because they have to be over designed by 30% to make up for fire growth during the time delay while air is discharging. Also, dry pipe valves and compressors are costly. A more cost effective system for small cold areas is a wet system filled with antifreeze.
I used to review and approve sprinkler and fire alarm systems for the county government.

 

[willymakeit]

If don’t want water go to a dry system that removes oxygen from the room.
Pricey tho. It’s what we use in server rooms. They are not Halon systems

 

[ard]

Show of hands:

how many people who are worried about fires have ply/osb/wood walls and ceilings?

 

[ChaseDE]

If don’t want water go to a dry system that removes oxygen from the room.
Pricey tho. It’s what we use in server rooms. They are not Halon systems

Yeah, FM200, and yeah probably cost more then your car/tools/etc

Show of hands:

how many people who are worried about fires have ply/osb/wood walls and ceilings?

Not me, I have drywall walls/ceiling.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Show of hands:

how many people who are worried about fires have ply/osb/wood walls and ceilings?

I have a few extinguishers, no smoke detectors, a wood burner, OSB walls/ceilings and a decent insurance policy. If I have a fire and I'm not home, it might go unnoticed till it's too late, then lose all.

Probably the best thing to do if you have a really nice garage/shop is to come to terms with it right now. If you have a fire, you're probably going to lose everything. That's just being honest.

My biggest concern is the guys on my local volunteer dept trying to make entry and making it too late. The way my garage area is built, it fire is showing out the vents, there's probably going to be a roof collapse in the very near future. I'm more worried about their safety than what's in my garage, those guys are my friends.

 

[Milton Shaw]

The water is a sprinkler system is the nastiest water you have ever imagined. Around here they don't seem to flush out the oil and scarf from construction before they put the system into service. The stains on the floor/furniture/walls are beyond description. Just a word of warning if you ever need to move a sprinkler head, plan on catching all the water from the pipes, you cannot remove the stains from the floor. Ask me how I know, friends business had to have one moved a couple of feet.

 

[77Birdman]

I had a catastrophic fire last fall, and when my new shop is up one of the first thing I'm going to get is multiple fire extinguishers. I don't have the money or utilities to install a sprinkler system but that would be the ultimate way to go. Another important thing is to change work practices. I walked out of the shop "for a minute" right after running an angle grinder. Within about 40 steps something caught, exploded and the building was engulfed in 5 minutes.

 

[ItsNemo]

I had a catastrophic fire last fall, and when my new shop is up one of the first thing I'm going to get is multiple fire extinguishers. I don't have the money or utilities to install a sprinkler system but that would be the ultimate way to go. Another important thing is to change work practices. I walked out of the shop "for a minute" right after running an angle grinder. Within about 40 steps something caught, exploded and the building was engulfed in 5 minutes.

That *****...but I hate to say that something catching in the first place was a bigger problem than the minute away. Keeping things clean and combustibles off the floor is a huge step in preventing fire in the first place, especially when grinding/welding.

 

[Showkey]

I lived in PA near Philadelphia a number for years back.........numerous communities had sprinkler codes for newer homes. They were plumbed with CPVC pipe it was orange in color. Seems like fairly easy DIY project ????

https://www.buildings.com/article-d...e/the-benefits-of-cpvc-fire-sprinkler-systems

 

[climb.on]

That *****...but I hate to say that something catching in the first place was a bigger problem than the minute away.

Ya think?

 

[climb.on]

I lived in PA near Philadelphia a number for years back.........numerous communities had sprinkler codes for newer homes. They were plumbed with CPVC pipe it was orange in color. Seems like fairly easy DIY project ????

https://www.buildings.com/article-d...e/the-benefits-of-cpvc-fire-sprinkler-systems

This is a really good read. Lots I never new about CPVC. I always thought of it as just a cheap plumbing system that is used in RV's. I know a couple people in the fire sprinkler systems industry...I'm going to see if I can get some info and if a DIY system is feasible.

 

[ItsNemo]

Ya think?

Sometimes

Point was, pretty easy to keep things clean when grinding so they don't light up in the first place.

 

[6768rogues]

The water is a sprinkler system is the nastiest water you have ever imagined. Around here they don't seem to flush out the oil and scarf from construction before they put the system into service. The stains on the floor/furniture/walls are beyond description. Just a word of warning if you ever need to move a sprinkler head, plan on catching all the water from the pipes, you cannot remove the stains from the floor. Ask me how I know, friends business had to have one moved a couple of feet.

Pipe water is indeed black and nasty. It gets that way fairly quickly from standing still in the pipes and getting stagnant.

 

[6768rogues]

I lived in PA near Philadelphia a number for years back.........numerous communities had sprinkler codes for newer homes. They were plumbed with CPVC pipe it was orange in color. Seems like fairly easy DIY project ????

https://www.buildings.com/article-d...e/the-benefits-of-cpvc-fire-sprinkler-systems

Residential sprinkler systems are designed to give the occupants more time to escape, not to extinguish the fire. They are designed under NFPA 13D or NFPA 13R and in some cases can use CPVC pipe. The pipe has to be the right stuff, like Blaze Master brand. A real commercial NFPA 13 system is designed to extinguish the fire, but the water supply and density far exceed a typical residential supply. Think expensive.
Putting a residential sprinkler system in your garage will only give you a few more moments to say goodbye to it and to get out. Having a lawn sprinkler on a fusible link will do the same thing.

 

[bczygan]

Guess I better quit welding over the pile of shavings that came out of the jointer.....

Bill

 

[Showkey]

Totally disagree..........suggest you review Ryan’s video of his garage fire that self extinguished. A very simple sprinkler would have easily put the fire out. Rags, saw dust, garbage can fire or debris fire is likely far more common. I have seen ( first hand) multiple small vehicle fires like ATV, lawn tractors, electrical device failures etc that caused more smoke and heat damage than structure damage. These would easily been stopped by a simple flood of water.


Yes an explosion fire would be a problem to contain..........don’t think it is common as the movies show.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I lived in PA near Philadelphia a number for years back.........numerous communities had sprinkler codes for newer homes. They were plumbed with CPVC pipe it was orange in color. Seems like fairly easy DIY project ????

https://www.buildings.com/article-d...e/the-benefits-of-cpvc-fire-sprinkler-systems

We have a hunk of it at the station and I used to have a picture of it. It was probably on my PB account and gone now. I'll see if I can find it.

EDIT: It was must be gone or on the old computer.

 

[Stuart in MN]

As I mentioned earlier in this discussion, smoke detectors aren't the best choice in a garage or shop where you have car exhaust, welding fumes, dust, etc. Instead, look at using rate of rise temperature sensors instead.

 

[77Birdman]

In my case, i mentioned the 5 minute walk away as a reference to how quickly something like this can happen. I was working in an open garage bay in what i thought was a clean area. No doubt it was completely my stupid fault for not being more careful, although i have and have always had a fear of a catastrophic fire and tried to be more than careful. Looking back i had a roll of builders paper on a shelf about 10 feet away, that was the only thing i could think of that would have been that combustible at the time. As I stated, one of things will be a change of work habits.
In my area of MD sprinklers are now required for all residential. Yes it looks like simple plumbing but I don't think its a job for a homeowner. Also the big problem I see is the water supply and flow, not the piping itself. We built a firehouse that was on a well system and the sprinkler system had a separate storage tank, the size slips my mind but it was huge, something like 5k gallons or bigger.

 

[ChaseDE]

5 minutes is a long time for a fire, they say a typical fire doubles in size each minute.

 

[Falcon67]

Show of hands:

how many people who are worried about fires have ply/osb/wood walls and ceilings?

Have and not worried. Why? Because 1) its not kindling, it takes work to light OSB off and 2) I have a LOT of fuel in there, usually 20~70 gallons including race fuel so fire = explosion = who gives a **** what is on the walls.

I have two 5 lb and two 2 lb extinguishers in the shop. No smoke alarm - you'd never hear it in the house anyway. We are considering a remote unit to add to the alarm system.

 

[jetnow1]

I have 5/8 drywall on the ceiling and the walls, and an extinguisher by the door. I only have gas in the garage in the winter, when I am not likely to work out there, otherwise it is in the shed, vehicles excepted of course. I also keep both a small extinguisher and a bucket of water by me when welding or grinding. I do not believe in osb walls, but feel the people who fear them often have wood cabinets or shelves just as I do so you have to decide your comfort level. I also have a beer fridge, just to be sure I stay out there for at least 1/2 hour after welding or grinding, at least that is my justification.