So these mount to blind hole? That could be your issue. Have you checked to make sure the plate mounting bolts seat deep enough into the base plate they can pull the top plates tight? Could be they aren’t threaded deep enough and or have debris in them. Also if you didn’t add just a lite coating of antiseize to them and with how many times you’ve assembled/ disassembled maybe galled and pulled some threads.
Fireball table- NOT impressed
- Thread starter FL Guy
- Start date
- Status
There is enough depth on the base plate to accommodate the bolts. The bolts engage the thread about 1/3" or so. I did notice when I went to go tighten down on the bolt that it would pull the plate tight up against the aluminum frame.
No, I did not add anti-seize to the bolts. I didn't think of it and unfortunately, there were no instructions when this package arrived. I had to go on their website and look at the pictures to see which rails went where.
You are absolutely right about having some threads that were pulled. I saw this this morning when I was taking it apart trying to figure everything out.
Look at post #38 and you'll see little pieces of aluminum In the thread holes.
See post 38.. I’m afraid it’s to late.
Even with shims, aren't you still pulling other areas down?
If the plate is bowed, not if its out of parallel
stockerwithalocker
Well-known member
Are the plates bowed or is it the tolerance stack up of the thickness from the pads to the top of the plate differing on each plate? From your video it seems it’s the tolerance stack up.
From Cam’s comment above, it looks like the bolts go through the plates into the aluminum. The holes in the aluminum appear to have some depth below the threads. I don't know the bolt size but make sure you have 1D engagement.
Usually the bolt will strip before the nut, even with a weaker nut because the od of the nut helps with the shear strength of the threads. How tight did you tighten the bolts to tear some of the threads?
Asking all these questions to offer some help since i feel for you spending that much and being disappointed.
From Cam’s comment above, it looks like the bolts go through the plates into the aluminum. The holes in the aluminum appear to have some depth below the threads. I don't know the bolt size but make sure you have 1D engagement.
Usually the bolt will strip before the nut, even with a weaker nut because the od of the nut helps with the shear strength of the threads. How tight did you tighten the bolts to tear some of the threads?
Asking all these questions to offer some help since i feel for you spending that much and being disappointed.
mark-NJ
Well-known member
Pack it up & send it back.
When I put my flat edge across each individual plate, it looks good. But my flat edge is not anything special.
The bolts go into a bushing, which takes up the entire hole in the plate to keep it from moving around. It Then screws into the aluminum stock. There is no nut on the backside of the bolts that screw through the plate.
I just snugged the bolts down and then gave it just a tad bit extra when I was putting everything together. There were no directions in the box at all. But like another member suggested that me taking off the plates 30 to 40 times more than likely screwed up the threads.
I don’t think I am able to bend that plate with those bolts. I believe more than likely the aluminum stock is pulling upward the more I tighten it. I can see that as I was put in the bolts into the plate there were still a significant edge between the two plates, but when I went to tighten up the bolts, the plates did level out.
It’s going back. I sent them an email last night requesting a prepaid shipping label. I doubt they work on the weekends so I should hear something tomorrow.
In my thoughts, mounting thick heavy cast plates to an aluminum frame doesn't sound like a good design.
Retroman
Well-known member
That's an understatement, especially at that price point.
Well that is certainly frustrating... on paper, this seemed like a good solution to your needs, too bad it was executed poorly. I think you are right in sending it back. The fact that you have to shim defeats the modular nature of the system all together. One of the selling points is that you can break down the table and move it easier, but not if you have to spend several hours dialing it back in each time you do so.
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Send it back.
You're expecting granite surface plate tolerances out of a three piece cast top that bolts together. Fabrication tolerances can and do stack up.
You'll never going to be happy with the result of those tolerances. Raw casting probably was 3/4" before machining; it obviously finishes out something less than that... Just like a Quarter Pounder is "weight before cooking" ..
What is your plan for a replacement table? What else can you buy with the tolerances you expect at the same price point? You evaluated alternatives and chose this product for a reason.... Unfortunately it didn't meet your expectations. Time to either accept it for what it is or move on.
Not defending Fireball CS, just pointing out the reality.
You're expecting granite surface plate tolerances out of a three piece cast top that bolts together. Fabrication tolerances can and do stack up.
You'll never going to be happy with the result of those tolerances. Raw casting probably was 3/4" before machining; it obviously finishes out something less than that... Just like a Quarter Pounder is "weight before cooking" ..
What is your plan for a replacement table? What else can you buy with the tolerances you expect at the same price point? You evaluated alternatives and chose this product for a reason.... Unfortunately it didn't meet your expectations. Time to either accept it for what it is or move on.
Not defending Fireball CS, just pointing out the reality.
NORTON'S SHOP
Well-known member
There was someone on this forum a while back that was going to weld; yes, weld only; a 10' fab table together and hold .005" along its entire length. You need to talk to him if you want perfection. If that person is still out there, chime in and let us know how it turned out.
Last edited:
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
IIRC, Same guy wanted advice on counterboring 16 gauge sheet and finding 1/8" diameter sheet metal weld plugs...
NORTON'S SHOP
Well-known member
Edited my post. It was .005", not .0005". Even the super machinists and welders on this forum can't do that. Well, maybe in their dreams they can.
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Reminds me of an inexperienced HR interviewer asking an applicant for a machinists position if he could "hold a thousandth"
He snorted and replied, "yeah, with a ******* file"
She was offended...
I’m not looking for perfection. I understand that nothing will be 100% flat. I knew that when I was looking for a table and I knew that before I purchased this fireball table. Each of these plates appear to be as flat as they can be when looked at individually. But when mounted to the aluminum frame, there’s obviously a discrepancy. Whether the bottom of the plate is not machined flat or the aluminum stock is not machine flat I have no idea. What I can’t deal with is the edge of one of the plates being higher than the plate next to it. Maybe if this was one 3x3 solid plate this area could possibly be a high spot and so be it no big deal, but given that it’s an edge that the material is going to constantly hit when you slide it across that’s a no go for me. Even though I was able to shim all of the plates and get everything level, after one small work session one of the plates lifted again, and I just don’t have the patience to go and recalibrate everything and waste my time doing it. Like one of the other member said this table being Modular and portable and being able to be taken apart and moved by one person was a good selling point for me. Yes it can still be taken apart. Yes it’ll take one person to do so and yes it’s probably going to take you another hour or two to get everything dialed back in with the shims. That defeats the entire purpose of purchasing this table. All this on top of the shi*ty customer service I’ve experienced since this table was delivered.
I went with this company because I have followed him on YouTube for a few months, I’ve seen what others have experienced with his merchandise (all good) and I see how Jason touts as his tables and equipment is superior and the videos he posted had me convinced.
After looking at the set up, I just think the three plate idea is a bad concept. This design makes me wonder why he does not sell the other table with I believe 8 in.sq plates. And there were about 12 or so on the table.
I went with this company because I have followed him on YouTube for a few months, I’ve seen what others have experienced with his merchandise (all good) and I see how Jason touts as his tables and equipment is superior and the videos he posted had me convinced.
After looking at the set up, I just think the three plate idea is a bad concept. This design makes me wonder why he does not sell the other table with I believe 8 in.sq plates. And there were about 12 or so on the table.
It’s going back. I’m not expecting a granite surface plate. The plates individually are flat enough for me, but when put together the plates are either low or high, dependent on where they are.
Even if raw casting was 3/4 before maching, there should be a disclaimer stating plus or minus however many inches. I get what you’re saying about the quarter pounder being that weight before cooking and Burger King and McDonald’s clearly state that this is weight before cooking.
As far as a replacement goes, I’m currently looking at Build Pros 30” x 48“ table that they use on the rhino cart. They sell just the top only. It’s a little bigger than what I need and a little more money but a buddy of mine has their cart with the table top that I’m looking at and has not had any issues over the last couple of years.
Jswain
Well-known member
So you're sending back this table, which is .018" (.013" you say in the email) out, and planning to buy one which specs +/- .015" / 2ft which could make it .030" out over its length?
They probably used aluminum so a guy could still man handle it around a bit, but those bolts could go in basically finger tight and be good if everything is machined. They probably expect someone dropping this much cash on a table like this can figure out how to assemble it without overtorqueing/crossthreading the bolts. Any resistance at all and steel is going to win, everytime.
You also said in your email to Jason you could push the plate down with your fingers, so I'm assuming ot wasn't being sucked down against the aluminum, because there is a bolt hole stripped out evidently by the threads pulled out in your picture?
They probably used aluminum so a guy could still man handle it around a bit, but those bolts could go in basically finger tight and be good if everything is machined. They probably expect someone dropping this much cash on a table like this can figure out how to assemble it without overtorqueing/crossthreading the bolts. Any resistance at all and steel is going to win, everytime.
You also said in your email to Jason you could push the plate down with your fingers, so I'm assuming ot wasn't being sucked down against the aluminum, because there is a bolt hole stripped out evidently by the threads pulled out in your picture?
Last edited:
Post 59 & 60 have your answers.
Jswain
Well-known member
It appears that it threads into a blind hole in the aluminum
Looks like a large chunk of aluminum on this fastener? Is this the problem hole?
Curious if you were running the fasteners in with a power tool? The threads look pretty damn raw on all those bolts
Attachments
Last edited:
The threads in the aluminum stock are threaded. The bolt does not go into any nut.
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Everyone wins.
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Too bad you're not closer. I have an antique typesetting table with a surface-ground top that I used to use as my welding table. ~30" square.
It's just in my way now.
It's just in my way now.
whateg01
Well-known member
Once you have the shims decided, you reuse them in the same spots and it's going to be as flat as it was the first time, assuming you tighten everything the same way and the surface it's assembled on has the same flatness. This design relies on the plates to pull the aluminum frame to their shape. The aluminum frame is really there just to connect the plates to one another and keep the overall assembly flat and properly spaced which is why it uses alignment bushings.
Were it me, and were I going to be assembling and disassembling it repeatedly, I would replace the aluminum frame with a steel frame, either counterbores and threaded, or with recessed rivnuts as they would take more abuse than what appears to be aluminum extrusions. Then again, I would've repaired that one air compressor and moved on.
Last edited:
Here’s an update some of you asked for.
Victor, the Operations Manager called me first thing on Monday morning. He said prior to calling me he viewed all the emails, videos and pictures.
He first apologized for how customer service handled everything Via email. The girls are new, it’s a new system they are working with and obviously more training is needed.
He said the way the plates have an edge lifted is not the way they were designed to be and obviously this failed their quality control and for that he was extremely sorry for it.
Victor said that he wants to keep me as a fireball customer and will make this situation right. But if I decided to go else where he understood and would issue a full refund immediately.
He asked me why I chose the table topper and I told him it was the size I was looking for and the price range I wanted to be in. I told him I saw his dragon wagon table top in the same size, but I didn’t buy it because I didn’t think I’d have a use for the sides of the table and it couldn’t be taken apart like the table topper. Plus it was an additional $400. I explained I was no professional welder and just took this hobby up last year, but after seeing my friend weld on a table with a gazillion holes, I understood the purpose of them and wanted to try it first hand.
After chatting for about 20 minutes on the phone Victor offered me a 36x24 Dragon Wagon table kit with adjustable casters shipped for free. Honestly, at this point I was a little shocked that he would offer that much of an upgrade when they could have refunded me or extended a discounted price.
I told him that I was just looking for a table top only in a 24x36 size or something close to it. He said the only other table he had would be the dragon wagon in a 24x36.
I told him that I wanted to think about and I would call him back.
After a few hours of letting my head clear, I called him and said I would accept his offer.
I told him when the new table arrives, I’ll throw my table topper in the box the new one was sent in and send it back to you guys. He said that wasn’t necessary and they saw in the videos and pictures what was wrong.
He told me to keep the topper, give it away or throw it in the garbage… Yep, shocked once again they didn’t want a $1100 table back!
Tonight I was sitting down watching tv and I remembered that there is a community college close to me that has a welding class. I said what the hell, I’ll take the table topper there and donate it to a student as I don’t need two tables. I’m sure they’d appreciate it.
Victor didn’t try to make any excuses about the issue, but he also didn’t kiss my a*s.
It felt like a real productive conversation and he knew how frustrated I was.
He didn’t ask me to take the videos off of YouTube and I’m not sure if he is aware of this forum and post. But if he is, he will see how a majority were curious to know how this would be handled and read the updated post.
Victor, the Operations Manager called me first thing on Monday morning. He said prior to calling me he viewed all the emails, videos and pictures.
He first apologized for how customer service handled everything Via email. The girls are new, it’s a new system they are working with and obviously more training is needed.
He said the way the plates have an edge lifted is not the way they were designed to be and obviously this failed their quality control and for that he was extremely sorry for it.
Victor said that he wants to keep me as a fireball customer and will make this situation right. But if I decided to go else where he understood and would issue a full refund immediately.
He asked me why I chose the table topper and I told him it was the size I was looking for and the price range I wanted to be in. I told him I saw his dragon wagon table top in the same size, but I didn’t buy it because I didn’t think I’d have a use for the sides of the table and it couldn’t be taken apart like the table topper. Plus it was an additional $400. I explained I was no professional welder and just took this hobby up last year, but after seeing my friend weld on a table with a gazillion holes, I understood the purpose of them and wanted to try it first hand.
After chatting for about 20 minutes on the phone Victor offered me a 36x24 Dragon Wagon table kit with adjustable casters shipped for free. Honestly, at this point I was a little shocked that he would offer that much of an upgrade when they could have refunded me or extended a discounted price.
I told him that I was just looking for a table top only in a 24x36 size or something close to it. He said the only other table he had would be the dragon wagon in a 24x36.
I told him that I wanted to think about and I would call him back.
After a few hours of letting my head clear, I called him and said I would accept his offer.
I told him when the new table arrives, I’ll throw my table topper in the box the new one was sent in and send it back to you guys. He said that wasn’t necessary and they saw in the videos and pictures what was wrong.
He told me to keep the topper, give it away or throw it in the garbage… Yep, shocked once again they didn’t want a $1100 table back!
Tonight I was sitting down watching tv and I remembered that there is a community college close to me that has a welding class. I said what the hell, I’ll take the table topper there and donate it to a student as I don’t need two tables. I’m sure they’d appreciate it.
Victor didn’t try to make any excuses about the issue, but he also didn’t kiss my a*s.
It felt like a real productive conversation and he knew how frustrated I was.
He didn’t ask me to take the videos off of YouTube and I’m not sure if he is aware of this forum and post. But if he is, he will see how a majority were curious to know how this would be handled and read the updated post.
Attachments
Last edited:
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
That is customer service
larry4406
Well-known member
And they all lived happily after all.
Looks like quite a nice fixture table
fireballtool.com
Looks like quite a nice fixture table
Dragon Wagon 36" x 24" (Standard Duty)
fireballtool.com
scooby074
Well-known member
Couldnt ask for more than that!
f150skidoo
Well-known member
Wow, what a great resolution to your issue! After reading about your issues I held back placing a order with them on some table tooling waiting to see how they resolved the OP's issue. I will now proceed with my order.
Monza Harry
Well-known member
@ f150skidoo perhaps mention this thread and the fact that their customer service in this matter was a big + in your decision to go with them! Positive feedback is usually well received and appreciated! @FL Guy you could follow up with FBall about the school/student donation on their part! Perhaps they will see this forum as a useful advertising platform with an Alliance or widespread discounts(?). Harry
aka Larry
Well-known member
This was excellent customer service for sure.
Just curious though, did he answer why the plates were under thickness?
Just curious though, did he answer why the plates were under thickness?
FlaGman
Well-known member
I really did not expect a happy resolution for you, but I am glad I was wrong.
Retroman
Well-known member
I may be wrong but it seems to me they may have got wind that this issue was being discussed on a tool forum and a few $ in material buys a lot of good will vs a bad reputation which can take years to overcome.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
Or maybe they really where having issues with the new girl in the office?
Our company experienced the exact same thing this summer and quite a few customers where told incorrect information before we caught wind of it and it wasn’t by video or yelp that we learned about it, and we made it right. Some companies still do that.
One doesn’t look a gift horse in the mouth nor should we be trying to guess what their thought process was.
General Geoff
Well-known member
Glad everything is on the right track to making you more than whole at this point. Let us know when you get the replacement setup.
Kaizen
Well-known member
I've had their fab squares for a few years and they are as close to perfect as i would expect. Reading this thread i was disappointed as their owner has made his company on as close to perfection as possible. Most of his videos are all about 64th or better work. He recently wanted to show how fixture tables were superior and paid to have some welders fab up some parts and of course he criticized tolerances.
Glad they are making this one right but think of the hundreds of other guys out there with that table and imperfections.
Glad they are making this one right but think of the hundreds of other guys out there with that table and imperfections.
- Status