Fireball tests Dragging a File

[scooby074]

Fireball tool is testing one of the oldest "old wives takes" in shop history, Should you drag a file? Does it damage it?

Im really curious to see his results, because I think we've all had it driven into our heads that it is a No-no. I bet he finds that it really is no big deal to back-drag (with a modern file). Bets??

 

[scooby074]

Part 2. The testing

 

[American Locomotive]

Can you just tell me so I don't have to watch 30 minutes of video for 1 minute of actual information?

 

[Zewnten]

Dragging a file also removed metal and the file still works but looks ugly

 

[dnschmidt]

This guy is a genius. Builds some weird assed **** but is clearly brilliant.

 

[merkyworks]

Watched a bunch of his vids, really good info in them.

 

[gatewaysysop]

Can you just tell me so I don't have to watch 30 minutes of video for 1 minute of actual information?

This.

I understand why they do it (money) but I refuse to support 'creators' who pull this **** where they drag things out and force me to wade through half a dozen ads to get to the @#$%ing point. Splitting it up into two videos is even worse.

Dragging a file also removed metal and the file still works but looks ugly

Likely to the surprise of no one. At least nobody with common sense.

 

[Pontiac787]

Slow day for those guys?

 

[mrjaw14]

I think it may be specific to the file type. I have a thread file, which has some higher teeth compared to a normal file, and I accidentally dragged it and snapped off a bunch of teeth!

 

[slowtwitch73]

Guy is cutting through the bs.. love it. Best machining content on the web.

 

[Ign]

Just don't put your car battery on concrete damnit!

 

[d.mcfarland]

Dragging a file also removed metal and the file still works but looks ugly

It was determined in this video that the difference was minimal.

 

[Rabid Badger]

It was determined in this video that the difference was minimal.

Glad someone was paying attention.

 

[mogandave]

I don't want my dad rolling over in his grave, so no dragging for me...

 

[GeoBruin]

Glad someone was paying attention.

I think that's selling it a bit short. In every test, coarse, medium, and fine, backdragging the file actually outperformed the lift technique by a non trivial amount. That alone may not be unexpected, but he then performed a key test where he only used a file in the wrong direction. That proved that the file does remove material when used backward. But perhaps more importantly, he then used it conventionally and showed that the file that was subjected to being used backward (only) for 2,500 strokes, performed the same as a brand new file.

That almost suggests you should backdrag a file. It removes more material and seems to have no deleterious effects. It probably helps clear the chips to some degree (though he didn't test this) and may help remove the burr from the teeth while filing (similar to using a knife steel).

 

[GeoBruin]

This.

I understand why they do it (money) but I refuse to support 'creators' who pull this **** where they drag things out and force me to wade through half a dozen ads to get to the @#$%ing point. Splitting it up into two videos is even worse.



Likely to the surprise of no one. At least nobody with common sense.

His videos are extremely well done and there is zero BS. The video took two parts because he showed how he created the test rig (which is awesome and is why people watch his channel in the first place) and the second part took 30 minutes because he was thorough in his testing and in his explanation of why he was doing what he did. He intentionally edited out the hours worth of testing that was repetitive.

If he had shortened his video by any meaningful amount, it would have left holes/inconsistencies and the content would have suffered.

I agree with you that many YouTube channels have resorted to a ton of filler content to make space for ads, (VCG construction anyone?) but this is not one of those.

 

[vavet]

The guy has some amazing talent, but I heard he drives a Ridgeline, so clearly untrustworthy.

 

[General Geoff]

I understand why they do it (money) but I refuse to support 'creators' who pull this **** where they drag things out and force me to wade through half a dozen ads to get to the @#$%ing point. Splitting it up into two videos is even worse.

If he had just told his results in a 1 minute video, then he'd be called a liar/amateur/idiot/***** who obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. Showing the test rig, how it was designed, how it works, and clips of the actual testing along with bar graphs comparing the results is not "dragging things out" (no pun intended I'm sure). The test rig fabrication and subsequent testing took him _days_ and he not only consolidated it down to less than an hour, he also presented it with excellent video editing and good hard numbers in an easy to understand format.

He's literally employing the scientific method here.

If you want to skip to the end result, just fast forward to the last 5 minutes of the second video

 

[RTM]

But perhaps more importantly, he then used it conventionally and showed that the file that was subjected to being used backward (only) for 2,500 strokes, performed the same as a brand new file.

I have not watched it yet with sound on, just skimmed for charts and pix, but this info is what I was looking for. Thanks for giving me the motivation to dedicate time to the whole thing.
I originally heard the “don’t back drag” from a real blowhard , and 4 or 5 people shut him down immediately, so I will let one of them toss it out to the group, after I watch it end to end.

 

[TjoFrasse]

Interesting! I have always just eased of the pressure, not lifting the file. And with these results I will continue without worrying about it at least on mild steel. I hope he will test with tool steels also, I wonder if it makes a difference!

 

[kelpaso1]

This.

I understand why they do it (money) but I refuse to support 'creators' who pull this **** where they drag things out and force me to wade through half a dozen ads to get to the @#$%ing point. Splitting it up into two videos is even worse.



Likely to the surprise of no one. At least nobody with common sense.

Not sure what vid you were watching, but there were no ads in his vids, at least for me

 

[Rabid Badger]

I think that's selling it a bit short. In every test, coarse, medium, and fine, backdragging the file actually outperformed the lift technique by a non trivial amount. That alone may not be unexpected, but he then performed a key test where he only used a file in the wrong direction. That proved that the file does remove material when used backward. But perhaps more importantly, he then used it conventionally and showed that the file that was subjected to being used backward (only) for 2,500 strokes, performed the same as a brand new file.

That almost suggests you should backdrag a file. It removes more material and seems to have no deleterious effects. It probably helps clear the chips to some degree (though he didn't test this) and may help remove the burr from the teeth while filing (similar to using a knife steel).

That's true. I was referring more to the difference in wear between the methods. Combine that with the increase in the amount of work performed, and back-dragging the file seems like the way to go.

One less thing for nit-pickers to complain about.

 

[slowtwitch73]

One less thing for nit-pickers to complain about.

Pffft. Facts won't deter them.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Can you just tell me so I don't have to watch 30 minutes of video for 1 minute of actual information?

If you're in that big of a hurry, just forward to the end.

 

[Half-fast eddie]

Interesting how quickly the file clogged without the wiper brush.

 

[GeoBruin]

Interesting how quickly the file clogged without the wiper brush.

No kidding. Good reminder to stop frequent and use the file card.

 

[dr_clyde]

No kidding. Good reminder to stop frequent and use the file card.

Careful. Apparently that file card will destroy your file faster than back dragging it. Or so I’m told.

 

[Ign]

I think that's selling it a bit short. In every test, coarse, medium, and fine, backdragging the file actually outperformed the lift technique by a non trivial amount. That alone may not be unexpected, but he then performed a key test where he only used a file in the wrong direction. That proved that the file does remove material when used backward. But perhaps more importantly, he then used it conventionally and showed that the file that was subjected to being used backward (only) for 2,500 strokes, performed the same as a brand new file.

That almost suggests you should backdrag a file. It removes more material and seems to have no deleterious effects. It probably helps clear the chips to some degree (though he didn't test this) and may help remove the burr from the teeth while filing (similar to using a knife steel).

Whoa, whoa, WHOA! Don't get carried away now. He just found a "breakthrough case" of backdragging appearing to work.....

 

[slowtwitch73]

Careful. Apparently that file card will destroy your file faster than back dragging it. Or so I’m told.

I've heard that too. A few things make me think bs.... major one is the file manufacturers have made and sold those cards for years.. I think they would know. Second, the alternative seems to be clogged metal shavings wearing on the teeth coupled with less metal removal. Would a few swipes with a file card be worse?

If I'm using a file with a safety edge, I just rap it on the aluminum vise jaws to knock out clogs.

I think cards are good.. at worst they are neutral imo...


We need a test....

 

[Torque Test Channel]

My man does like 50,000 file drags all automated with 10's of thousands of dollars in machinery and instruments. 9 different tests for good reasons, to verify or dispel long standing assumptions and critiques people have just chosen to go along with and believe for decades, maybe centuries. Potentially saving people time and money.
All for the cost your click and time. As much inconvenience as would it be to flip on the TV.

"17 mins is too long"

Ya gotta love it

Just don't watch. Simple as that.
Carry on with your extremely busy life that lead you to find yourself browsing youtube or talking on message boards.

/rant

 

[American Locomotive]

I like conciseness, and I don't like clickbait.

- The OP created a clickbaity thread without mentioning the results of the test at all. If he had mentioned what the results are, and then linked the video - that'd be one thing.
- I like conciseness. When it comes to "test reports" like this, I don't want any fluff or filler. I don't want to have to watch 10 minutes of video "results". I want the results presented in graphs with a few sentence summary that I can read/analyze in 2 minutes.

Nothing at all against Fireball. They do great work and make very thorough videos, but his editing style just doesn't work for me. He tends to draw things out for far longer than I'd like. The "content per minute" is too low for me.

 

[FMB4]

Single cut files should always be lifted on the backstroke. Double cut files cut in both directions.

 

[slowtwitch73]

Eh, I'm no sure about that. Double cut is just like a single but with another set of teeth at opposing angle.. still made to cut forward.

Nicholson literature says to lift:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjW_-7U7az0AhXRLH0KHUkMBdYQFnoECAIQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.crescenttool.com%2FMagentoShare%2Fmedia%2Fdocuments%2Fnicholson-guide-to-filing-2014.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1v4QGZWIS9v0uJfNLJ2U5M

I suspect a test with harder material would give different results.

I also suspect that for 99% of today's filing , it matters not. In the old days you were expected to file stock flat and square with a good finish using proper technique (guessing backfiling was not part of that good technique). Not so much now.

 

[slowtwitch73]

I like conciseness, and I don't like clickbait.

Sounds like your browser could use some attention.

No clickbait when I watch his videos.

If you leave yourself wide open for that ****, you'll surely get it.

 

[American Locomotive]

Sounds like your browser could use some attention.

No clickbait when I watch his videos.

If you leave yourself wide open for that ****, you'll surely get it.

I think you may be confused as to what clickbait is. This is clickbait:

Clickbait is a text or a thumbnail link that is designed to attract attention and to entice users to follow that link and read, view, or listen to the linked piece of online content, being typically deceptive, sensationalized, or otherwise misleading.[2][3] A "teaser" aims to exploit the "curiosity gap", providing just enough information to make readers of news websites curious, but not enough to satisfy their curiosity without clicking through to the linked content .

This is a clickbait thread, since the title entices you by making you think there's going to be discussion about the topic, but surprise! You need to watch two separate videos posted days apart to actually get the promised content. That's clickbait.

 

[Walkers]

Single cut files should always be lifted on the backstroke. Double cut files cut in both directions.

You don’t really understand files. A double cut has two sets of teeth that cut in the same forward direction, it forward and backward.

 

[Benito]

This is a clickbait thread, since the title entices you by making you think there's going to be discussion about the topic, but surprise! You need to watch two separate videos posted days apart to actually get the promised content. That's clickbait.

Thread title:

Fireball tests Dragging a File​

Inside: Videos by Fireball on dragging file tests

Go yell at the kinds on your lawn somewhere else old man

 

[bwringer]

Filing is a variable skill, but dragging the file is usually somewhat more accurate since you're removing another motion or two from the equation.

As he explained, the testing was intended to create an extreme case and magnify any differences, but in real life file draggers usually don't apply full force on the backstroke.

The importance of cleaning was pretty interesting, and the fact that a simple toothbrush applied every stroke was sufficient.

I'd love to see this test rig used to learn some things about filing aluminum using files intended for aluminum. How often and how should you clean the file?

And he used Pferd files, among the best and most expensive on the planet. I'd love to see a little testing quantifying the difference between cheap no-name files, the midrange Mexi-Chinese files now peddled as Nicholson, and Pferd.

He's probably really, really sick of hearing that machine file, though...

 

[bwringer]

My man does like 50,000 file drags all automated with 10's of thousands of dollars in machinery and instruments. 9 different tests for good reasons, to verify or dispel long standing assumptions and critiques people have just chosen to go along with and believe for decades, maybe centuries. Potentially saving people time and money.
All for the cost your click and time. As much inconvenience as would it be to flip on the TV.

"17 mins is too long"

Ya gotta love it

Just don't watch. Simple as that.
Carry on with your extremely busy life that lead you to find yourself browsing youtube or talking on message boards.

/rant

Oh, hey, it's a wild TTC! Didn't know you were lurking hereabouts. Anyway, thanks for the testing you do. It has informed at least one recent purchase.



Fireball also did a video a few weeks ago comparing techniques for using a cutting wheel to cut metal. Turns out just about everyone is doing it wrong...

By cutting with the edge (he calls it "gouging") instead of plunging the wheel into the work, your cutting wheels can last about ten times longer.

 

[M635_Guy]

I understand why they do it (money) but I refuse to support 'creators' who pull this **** where they drag things out and force me to wade through half a dozen ads to get to the @#$%ing point. Splitting it up into two videos is even worse.

I like conciseness, and I don't like clickbait.

- The OP created a clickbaity thread without mentioning the results of the test at all. If he had mentioned what the results are, and then linked the video - that'd be one thing.
- I like conciseness. When it comes to "test reports" like this, I don't want any fluff or filler. I don't want to have to watch 10 minutes of video "results". I want the results presented in graphs with a few sentence summary that I can read/analyze in 2 minutes.

Nothing at all against Fireball. They do great work and make very thorough videos, but his editing style just doesn't work for me. He tends to draw things out for far longer than I'd like. The "content per minute" is too low for me.

You guys would probably be the first two arguing with his conclusions if he'd made shorter stuff while the rest of us appreciate his thoroughness, skill and details.

Sheesh...