Fireball Tool Tests Bench Vises to Failure

[dr_clyde]

Pretty neat video.

All in all it really shows us what we already knew, but still fun to watch.

 

[woody 73]

I think we must have been thinking the same thought...

 

[dr_clyde]

Haha yeah I saw that too. Same time.

 

[ganymede]

That Heuer got a higher score than it deserved. It was the shape of a banana and completely wrecked long before something snapped on it.
Was really shocked that the repaired Prentiss did so well.
I will never underestimate them again.!

 

[neophyte]

That Heuer got a higher score than it deserved. It was the shape of a banana and completely wrecked long before something snapped on it.
Was really shocked that the repaired Prentiss did so well.
I will never underestimate them again.!

Whether the Heuer did well or not depends on whether you would prefer a vise that has a weak but repairable failure point, that goes before the vise is completely shot, or whether you prefer a vise that will still hold once the cise is bent and mangled.
The Heuer vise was still holding even once the vise was brnt and mangled, which could provide safety if the vise was holding something you didn’t want to fall on your foot, or didn’t want to fall on the floor die to cost.
The other vises that simply failed do to a weak point could likely be repaired if parts were available. I suspect this might be the reason for the cheap locking bars on some of the swiveling vises.
New spindles and sinde nouts can be readily purchased for the Heuer vises, so I’m surprised the vise didn’t fail with either of these parts first.

The two vises that really surprised me were the Dewalt vise, and the Irwin Rotating jaw vise.
I’m not sure whether that Irwin is one of the Ductile Iron versions of the rotating vise, or whether it’s one of the gray iron versions. It held up better than I would have thought, given photos I’ve seen of those with bondo repaied casting etc.
The Dewalt vise appears to be the same vise Jorgensen used to sell under the Pony brand, and which Garrett Wade is selling under their own brand.
It always looked nice, and was supposedly ductile Iron, but I was iffy on purchasing one.

I honstly wonder if some of the older vises used, such as the Prentiss and Wilton, were either actually manufactured from Ductile or Maleable Iron, or if they were some kind of very high quality, high tensile strength cast iron like Meehanite “Semi-Steel” cast iron which seems to not be used as much nowadays.

 

[ganymede]

Whether the Heuer did well or not depends on whether you would prefer a vise that has a weak but repairable failure point, that goes before the vise is completely shot, or whether you prefer a vise that will still hold once the cise is bent and mangled.
The Heuer vise was still holding even once the vise was brnt and mangled, which could provide safety if the vise was holding something you didn’t want to fall on your foot, or didn’t want to fall on the floor die to cost.
The other vises that simply failed do to a weak point could likely be repaired if parts were available. I suspect this might be the reason for the cheap locking bars on some of the swiveling vises.
New spindles and sinde nouts can be readily purchased for the Heuer vises, so I’m surprised the vise didn’t fail with either of these parts first.

Absolutely. Safety can trump repairability. Funny thing if the screw hadn't snapped it doesn't look like he'd have been able to remove the workpiece very easily. The vise was that bent.

The two vises that really surprised me were the Dewalt vise, and the Irwin Rotating jaw vise.
I’m not sure whether that Irwin is one of the Ductile Iron versions of the rotating vise, or whether it’s one of the gray iron versions. It held up better than I would have thought, given photos I’ve seen of those with bondo repaied casting etc.
The Dewalt vise appears to be the same vise Jorgensen used to sell under the Pony brand, and which Garrett Wade is selling under their own brand.
It always looked nice, and was supposedly ductile Iron, but I was iffy on purchasing one.

All this big box vises surprised me. Ive seen so many broken ones I was expecting failures in the main casting or the slide. I guess quality is going up.

I honstly wonder if some of the older vises used, such as the Prentiss and Wilton, were either actually manufactured from Ductile or Maleable Iron, or if they were some kind of very high quality, high tensile strength cast iron like Meehanite “Semi-Steel” cast iron which seems to not be used as much nowadays.

Columbian was Maleable .
Parker and Rock Island were were Semi-steel.
Simplex body not the slides obviously.:Woonsocket Rhode Island era were crucible Iron (whatever that is) and Desmond era were Semi-steel

 

[may0naise]

Makes me feel better about the Yost ADI6 I picked up when they were on sale at the end of the year last year. I was really glad to see one of those on the test bench. The ADI series was new and basically untested so far.

 

[jayemm]

Amen, makes me feel better about the Yost ADI5 vise I got.Was curious about the supposed super strength heat treated ductile iron .I didn't notice the jaws 'springing' apart much before the spindle snapped at over 16k lbs.Damn strong considering the smaller cross section of the jaws compared to other vises.Impressive enough for my needs.

 

[Packard V8]

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
– Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

There are many varieties and alloys of cast iron. Some terminology is quite precise. Some is just marketing BS. For example, Meehanite is a process and quality control used to produce many different cast irons. Semi-steel can be many things. For example, for forty years, GM trade name Armasteel was used to disguise their crankshafts and connecting rods were not steel but were actually a much cheaper pearlitic malleable cast iron.

Semi-steel casting is a lower cost method to produce a casting that is not quite as strong as a steel casting but less expensive to manufacture. It was used more commonly as a marketing term.

The carbon and silicon percentages are reduced to the amount approximately consistent with those in steel. This is done using pig iron or gray iron casting scrap and reducing the amount of carbon through the addition of relatively pure steel or wrought iron scrap in a well heated cupola furnace. The percentage of carbon is typically between foundry cast iron and wrought iron.

Malleable iron is cast as white iron, the structure being a metastable carbide in a pearlitic matrix. Through an annealing heat treatment, the brittle structure as first cast is transformed into the malleable form. Carbon agglomerates into small roughly spherical aggregates of graphite leaving a matrix of ferrite or pearlite according to the exact heat treatment used.

Meehanite is a trademark for an engineering process to make a range of cast irons produced under specific and carefully controlled conditions to precise internationally recognized specifications. According to the Meehanite Worldwide company, when correctly followed the Meehanite process will produce cast iron with uniform soundness, consistent physical and mechanical properties and dependable performance in service.

The Meehanite specifications can be classified into three broad types: High duty flake or gray irons; High duty “nodular” or ductile iron (SG); and a group consisting of special types for applications requiring resistance to heat, wear and corrosion.

Castings made by this method are used extensively to make machine tools, gears, sheaves, cylinder heads, valve bodies, rollers and other highly engineered applications.

jack vines

 

[Steve_P]

Makes me feel better about the Yost ADI6 I picked up when they were on sale at the end of the year last year. I was really glad to see one of those on the test bench. The ADI series was new and basically untested so far.

Same here. It's also a good design in that the screw fails before the casting does. Same with the Wilton 1750 - stop when the handle bends, but if not, the screw failed first.

The DeWalt is surprisingly good. Same with the HF considering the cost. The cheap Wiltons are not very good in comparison. That Irwin flip vise looks like a joke but was 10x stronger than I expected. Bottom line is this proves there's no need to pay big $ for vintage US vises unless you want to.

 

[gte718p]

All the tool polishers here would probably cringe and never touch the Prentis with the giant braze repair. Took a beating and the repair was not what failed.

 

[neophyte]

All the tool polishers here would probably cringe and never touch the Prentis with the giant braze repair. Took a beating and the repair was not what failed.

There’s nothing wrong with tool polishing, as long as you let the tools get dirty when they need to be used.

 

[Shadowdog500]

The thing I saw was that the Wilton vises didn’t do to well at all.


Did Wilton loose it’s mojo?

 

[dr_clyde]

The thing I saw was that the Wilton vises didn’t do to well at all.


Did Wilton loose it’s mojo?

Low end Wiltons were never all that nice. I thought the tradesman did just fine in the tests. And he didn’t test a machinist Wilton, the iconic one.

 

[MacMcMacmac]

Same here. It's also a good design in that the screw fails before the casting does. Same with the Wilton 1750 - stop when the handle bends, but if not, the screw failed first.

The DeWalt is surprisingly good. Same with the HF considering the cost. The cheap Wiltons are not very good in comparison. That Irwin flip vise looks like a joke but was 10x stronger than I expected. Bottom line is this proves there's no need to pay big $ for vintage US vises unless you want to.

I guess the Vises of Garage Journal thread is gonna come to a screeching halt then.

Too bad, it was just getting started...

 

[Shadowdog500]

Low end Wiltons were never all that nice. I thought the tradesman did just fine in the tests. And he didn’t test a machinist Wilton, the iconic one.

I realize that, but he wasn’t really testing $1000 vises either.

The bottom 5 vises in the point of failure test were all four Wilton’s and the $50 HF vise. The $50 HF vise beat three out of the four Wilton vises in all three tests. Only the tradesman beat the HF vise in all three tests, but not by much. For 10 times the price I thought it would be a lot better.

Chris
.

 

[Skin]

That Heuer got a higher score than it deserved. It was the shape of a banana and completely wrecked long before something

Yea but the whole test was flawed if you look at it as an apples to apples test. Some big differences in vise sizes there as well as the types of bases. That Heuer is only a 20lb model. They make ones that go up to 65lb.

 

[ganymede]

Yea but the whole test was flawed if you look at it as an apples to apples test. Some big differences in vise sizes there as well as the types of bases. That Heuer is only a 20lb model. They make ones that go up to 65lb.

Right, good point.

 

[Jack84]

Yea but the whole test was flawed if you look at it as an apples to apples test. Some big differences in vise sizes there as well as the types of bases. That Heuer is only a 20lb model. They make ones that go up to 65lb.

The ways on the Heuer weren't set properly also. I think anyway. In the first part they seem loose.

 

[highland512]

Old rusty junk for the win!!!!!!!

 

[Steve_P]

I realize that, but he wasn’t really testing $1000 vises either.

The bottom 5 vises in the point of failure test were all four Wilton’s and the $50 HF vise. The $50 HF vise beat three out of the four Wilton vises in all three tests. Only the tradesman beat the HF vise in all three tests, but not by much. For 10 times the price I thought it would be a lot better.

Chris
.

Exactly. The Wilton trailer hitch vise was an embarrassing POS. Especially since anyone using it is probably going to be beating on it hard and not cutting a 2x4 or a shower curtain rod like most home users. I've had a 4" HF vise on my welding table for 20 yrs and have used it very hard. It's held up fine. The casting is poor, body filler, but the machining is much better than the one in the video - very little slop.

Even though the cheap Wiltons did poorly, it still took a lot to break them- that's more than almost any homeowner would put them thru. Most here would still never recommend one, but even the <$100 vises are way more than most homeowners will ever need.

 

[Man of Many Vices]

Bottom line is this proves there's no need to pay big $ for vintage US vises unless you want to.

You don't have to pay big bucks for a vintage American made vise in good shape. You can find one easily for $100 or less if you exercise a little patience and discretion.

I just picked up a very stout Columbian 203-1/2 in pristine shape, original unblemished paint, but minor surface rust on the bare metal here and there, for $40. I don't need it, but it wanted to go home with me. I can't help myself. Somebody stop me.

 

[American Locomotive]

You don't have to pay big bucks for a vintage American made vise in good shape. You can find one easily for $100 or less if you exercise a little patience and discretion.

I just picked up a very stout Columbian 203-1/2 in pristine shape, original unblemished paint, but minor surface rust on the bare metal here and there, for $40. I don't need it, but it wanted to go home with me. I can't help myself. Somebody stop me.

...and that is why it's extremely hard for most people to find vintage American made vises in good shape. Hoarders and collectors buying them all up.

Most people that need a good vise need one now, not 2 years in the future. The nanosecond a good one at a good price shows up, it's swiped up by a collector.

 

[General Geoff]

...and that is why it's extremely hard for most people to find vintage American made vises in good shape. Hoarders and collectors buying them all up.

Most people that need a good vise need one now, not 2 years in the future. The nanosecond a good one at a good price shows up, it's swiped up by a collector.

Three of the four vintage American vises I've purchased over the years, have been given to family and friends who needed vises. Not all of us hoard them

 

[davethorik]

...and that is why it's extremely hard for most people to find vintage American made vises in good shape. Hoarders and collectors buying them all up.

Most people that need a good vise need one now, not 2 years in the future. The nanosecond a good one at a good price shows up, it's swiped up by a collector.

.....so what?
Last time I checked there are no rules. We are free to do with our money and time what we choose.

Many companies pumped out thousands of vises for decades in America. I think there aren't as many vise collectors in the real world as you think, seeing as how this is GJ. There are plenty of old vises out there if you look.

 

[Dozerhand]

That sorts reminds me of the time I went into gravel pit shop and the biggest vise I ever saw in my life. Must have been 12 inch jaws and 4-600 pounds worth laying in two pieces on the floor. I asked what the heck happened to that. They said they were trying to straighten something and couldn't tighten it any more by hand so they called for the endloader to push down on the handle with the bucket. Geeesh

 

[American Locomotive]

.....so what?
Last time I checked there are no rules. We are free to do with our money and time what we choose.

Many companies pumped out thousands of vises for decades in America. I think there aren't as many vise collectors in the real world as you think, seeing as how this is GJ. There are plenty of old vises out there if you look.

The same people that hoard vises are the same ones that deride cheaper import vises and chide the people that but them. Same thing with anvil collectors. Many of those old American vises have been scrapped or thrown out long ago. When good ones pop up, they're quickly scooped up by collectors or resellers.

Everyone is free to do what they want. But it's very annoying that those same people hate on cheap vises, when they have effectively made it so the only way to find a good one is to either scour craigslist and ebay everyday for 2 years, or fork over $1000 to Wilton.

 

[may0naise]

The same people that hoard vises are the same ones that deride cheaper import vises and chide the people that but them. Same thing with anvil collectors. Many of those old American vises have been scrapped or thrown out long ago. When good ones pop up, they're quickly scooped up by collectors or resellers.

Everyone is free to do what they want. But it's very annoying that those same people hate on cheap vises, when they have effectively made it so the only way to find a good one is to either scour craigslist and ebay everyday for 2 years, or fork over $1000 to Wilton.

especially since a new wilton tradesman IS AN IMPORT VISE

 

[Shadowdog500]

especially since a new wilton tradesman IS AN IMPORT VISE

That only has 13% more clamping force by hand than the $50 harbor freight vise, and only 17% more gripping force until failure than the $50 harbor freight vise, yet costs 800% more than the $50 harbor freight vise.

It may be a Wilton, but I’m not paying “made in USA” prices, for a “made in China” vise, especially when the performance isn’t that much better.

My old 4” MIT vise was made in China has been on my bench for over 20 years and is holding up just fine. If it ever breaks I’m definitely not getting Wilton tradesman.

 

[American Locomotive]

I will say that this video was really embarrassing for Wilton. Most of their new vises are sitting at the very bottom of Fireball's charts, even below the HF vise.

I bet Wilton will be gone within the decade. There's literally no reason to buy their products when they're objectively worse than cheaper competitors, and not US built anymore.

 

[vavet]

That sorts reminds me of the time I went into gravel pit shop and the biggest vise I ever saw in my life. Must have been 12 inch jaws and 4-600 pounds worth laying in two pieces on the floor. I asked what the heck happened to that. They said they were trying to straighten something and couldn't tighten it any more by hand so they called for the endloader to push down on the handle with the bucket. Geeesh

Omg....I’m just imagining the conversation that happened after it broke.

“Geez, what a piece of ****!”
“I don’t know why it broke.”

 

[highland512]

...and that is why it's extremely hard for most people to find vintage American made vises in good shape. Hoarders and collectors buying them all up.

Most people that need a good vise need one now, not 2 years in the future. The nanosecond a good one at a good price shows up, it's swiped up by a collector.

I wait and buy the vises I want at these guys estate auctions. As long as it dosnt say Wilton you can usually buy these old vises for under $5 per jaw inch at auctions. I now have 4 different vises in my shop, Im done. If a guy can do a minimal amount of looking you can find cheep US made vices.

 

[Steve_P]

The used USA vise deals definitely depend on location. I'm in TN and looked for 3 months on CL and it was nothing but beat up junk for $300. And I don't have time for yard and estate sales so I eventually bought a new one. The DeWalt and the Yost ADI looked like the winners of the test for serious use. For typical homeowner use anything would be ok, go by price

 

[kythri]

Yeah, sub-$100 hefty US-made vises, and $5/jaw inch vises are fairy tales on par with sub-$1000 KRL boxes.

Just for giggles, I looked at my local CL.

$300 - An 80lb 4.5" jaw Charles Parker, can't be bothered to post pictures
$250 - Charles Parker 954 that someone painted tan
$300 - Ratty-looking (but appears to be mechanically sound) Charles Parker 945 1/2

Better than those, though, is an HF 6" vise that looks like it was dipped, handle, jaws and all, in gray latex paint. The seller claims he bought it at a farm auction 25 years ago, and wants $75 for it, which seems fair since I can go get a new one from HF for $62.99 pre-coupon, but it doesn't have the awesome provenance of this one.

These prices most definitely are due to the hoarders and collectors. Fine, whatever, it is what it is - but the average Joe isn't going to be able to get a decent vise for anything affordable, unless "patience" translates into waiting years and years.

 

[mc4life27]

Does anyone one have personal experience with the fireball forged vise?


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[mike93lx]

Does anyone one have personal experience with the fireball forged vise?


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

Fireball forged vise? What are you referring to?

His handmade vise is make of mild steel.

 

[mike93lx]

For a hundred bucks, that dewalt looks like a solid vise. I've been wanting to upgrade... That might win

 

[tlevan03]

Project Farm needs to step it up.

 

[Ign]

That only has 13% more clamping force by hand than the $50 harbor freight vise, and only 17% more gripping force until failure than the $50 harbor freight vise, yet costs 800% more than the $50 harbor freight vise.

It may be a Wilton, but I’m not paying “made in USA” prices, for a “made in China” vise, especially when the performance isn’t that much better.

My old 4” MIT vise was made in China has been on my bench for over 20 years and is holding up just fine. If it ever breaks I’m definitely not getting Wilton tradesman.

I have a Tradesman I actually really like, although I do find it a bit annoying I sometimes have to really get after the handle to get it hold anything with assertiveness. OTOH I do have copper jaw caps

Otherwise I struggle with your logic - if you're daily driving a vise the Wilton is overall a pleasure to use at an entry level price for a "professional" vise. A HF vise is like driving a base model Sentra.

Yes, I've used both and I won't be putting a HF in place of my Tradesman

IOW, I guess it depends on how you define "performance."

I'm not a Wilton fan boi - I'm fine with bashing them but a HF vise is sloppy, tinny (as in tin/sheetmetal) and even the reviewer nails it - it feels "hollow". The Tradesman fills that gap between homeowner grade and $1k C1 or machinist. It feels smooth and solid. There's one on the rear bumper of every gas patch truck here, probably because they're relatively strong, *relatively* affordable and the enclosed spindle won't seize up outdoors as readily

 

[kythri]

Does anyone one have personal experience with the fireball forged vise?


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

The Fireball vise in those videos isn't forged. It's welded plate and tube, made from plans you can buy here: https://fireballtool.com/diy-vise-plans/

I'm in the market for a couple of these, if there's anyone here who wants to quote me what they'd charge to build and ship them.