Firming up 12' tall framing

[Gizmosity]

I've been posting a bit on the progress of my shop that came with the purchase of my house a few months ago. I've gotten soooo many great ideas from here. I hope to contribute when I can.

One thing that really bothers me (besides the smell and the non opening windows) is that the shop is framed with 12' ceilings with 2x4 walls. There is a huge amount of flex to the walls. You can push on them and they move/deflect.... a lot. The large windows don't help matters much.

One side is unfinished and there's no blocking or cross bracing. Cross bracing is impossible because of the window size and placement.

I've thought about 3/4" plywood screwed to the wall over the drywall which would also make it easier to screw random stuff to the walls 8' off the floor on the finished side of the shop. I also wonder about 2x8's (or larger) screwed together to make an "L" and then screwed to the wall horizontally. That might stiffen the wall and make a little shelf and be less expensive than the plywood.

Anyone got any other ideas/experience solving wobbly walls?

 

[robotrigger]

What is the rafter situation like? Sheathing the walls should help a bit but it shouldn't be necessary. Any pictures of the framing would help identify the lack thereof.


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[Gizmosity]

I will see what I can dig up, but standard 16" O/C framing and trusses. I pinched a nerve in my neck so I'm kind of stuck in a chair right now or I'd go take some photos.

 

[kbs2244]

First, get rid of the dry wall.
You need to work with the structure directly and all it does is ad weight and get in the way.

Then, your “L” idea is a step in the right direction.
But you can do it easier with some “L“ shaped metal wind bracing.
Normally it is installed at an angle into sawn grooves to negate the need for plywood corner sheathing.
But if you put it horizontally between to rows of even ½ plywood you will stiffen up the wall considerably.

 

[Gizmosity]

Found a couple semi-recent ones. It's a hip roof so the trusses are a little more complicated, but not much.

I can't imagine how much deflection there would be if the dividing wall wasn't there and giving it some support.

 

[Gizmosity]

First, get rid of the dry wall.
You need to work with the structure directly and all it does is ad weight and get in the way.

Then, your “L” idea is a step in the right direction.
But you can do it easier with some “L“ shaped metal wind bracing.
Normally it is installed at an angle into sawn grooves to negate the need for plywood corner sheathing.
But if you put it horizontally between to rows of even ½ plywood you will stiffen up the wall considerably.

I wasn't sure that diagonal wind bracing would work in this situation because you can't get from the bottom plate to the top plate because of the windows... Unless you do it in the first 3-4 feet of the corner.

I'd most likely consider ANY solution that wouldn't entail pulling all that sheetrock off first.

 

[larry_g]

I think that I would build a butress to support the wall and then disguise it as some heavy storage. You could rip some plywood down to 2' (or 16" for 3 per sheet) wide and sandwich a stud with it and then sandwich a 2x on the room end that reaches to the rafters. The plywood would then be a large beam from the floor to the truss. Move over 32" or 48" and install another one. Now you have two endwalls for a closet or open shelving or whatever. OR Put your butress at each end of a workbench if you like.

I'll leave it you you to figure out how to afix the butress to the floor.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[NUTTSGT]

I'd definetly put some blocking in the walls. I'm curious as to why the place was built with 2x4 12' walls, especially when they put in atleast 3 very large (80") windows.

Is there insulation behind the drywall ? If not, that would be enough reason for me to rip it off and insulate it. I'd also close up the windows or replace them with something that is functioning and more energy efficent.

 

[Gizmosity]

I think that I would build a butress to support the wall and then disguise it as some heavy storage. You could rip some plywood down to 2' (or 16" for 3 per sheet) wide and sandwich a stud with it and then was sandwich a 2x on the room end that reaches to the rafters. The plywood would then be a large beam from the floor to the truss. Move over 32" or 48" and install another one. Now you have two endwalls for a closet or open shelving or whatever. OR Put your butress at each end of a workbench if you like.

I'll leave it you you to figure out how to afix the butress to the floor.

lg
no neat sig line

I considered buttresses. I meant to say something about them in my initial post but it got wiped when I got timed out and had to re-type my post. I would need to buttress all the walls. I'd pretty much have to put them between the windows, blocking quite a bit of the natural light. But, they could also create unique storage/bench areas.....I had considered doing something with 12 foot pallet racking to not block the light. I had not thought about putting them as close together as 36-48" however. I was assuming I'd want to divide the wall into thirds, so they would create 3 10 foot "cubbies" on the short wall and 3 12 foot ones on the long wall. Having a 3'-4' boxed in area on each wall could work. That would also keep open wall maximized.

Some modified steel pallet racking is looking really promising.....

 

[Gizmosity]

I'd definetly put some blocking in the walls. I'm curious as to why the place was built with 2x4 12' walls, especially when they put in atleast 3 very large (80") windows.

Is there insulation behind the drywall ? If not, that would be enough reason for me to rip it off and insulate it. I'd also close up the windows or replace them with something that is functioning and more energy efficent.

There are 8 of those damn windows: two on each end wall and 4 on the back wall. I would like to eventually change them out for something that opens and maybe go smaller or maybe put in 3 smaller windows to fill the same space. It's fully insulated. The drywall is reflective backed as well. I cringe at the thought of ripping it all out....I freaking hate drywall work.

I can easily put blocking in on the unfinished side. I'm not trying to be picky, I'm considering ALL options for the finished side.

I'm curious about a lot of things with this property, but the marketing challenges of the property made it affordable.

 

[Architorture]

The 2x4s are the problem and the only way to deal with it is to reduce the unbraced height of the wall. No amount of sheathing or horizontally oriented bracing will change that.

The least invasive way to reduce the effective height of the wall would be to install bracing between the walls and the roof structure at a 45. Pick a height you feel you can live with 8', 9', 10'...and buy a bunch of 2x4s

 

[69gp]

not sure if it would work if you used engineered lumber. Check out the link below. maybe one on each side of the windows would help. I know that if you use plywood or Sheetrock and use liquid nails it created a box effect and will add strength.

http://www.woodbywy.com/trus-joist/timberstrand-lsl-tall-walls/

 

[Gizmosity]

The 2x4s are the problem and the only way to deal with it is to reduce the unbraced height of the wall. No amount of sheathing or horizontally oriented bracing will change that.

The least invasive way to reduce the effective height of the wall would be to install bracing between the walls and the roof structure at a 45. Pick a height you feel you can live with 8', 9', 10'...and buy a bunch of 2x4s

I like this a lot. So, for instance:

I cut a strip of Sheetrock off the wall at say, 8 feet off the floor. Cut a strip of sheetrock off the ceiling for a 2x8 ( blown in insulation so Id like to keep as much up there as possible) to run parallel to the wall at 4 feet away. Cut 2x4's at 45 degrees on both ends, fastening to the wall framing (and maybe a nail plate?) and then to the 2x material that is attached to the joists. Rock that. Enjoy stable walls and a really flipping cool ceiling?

 

[Boomer343]

How long has the building been standing as is?

Framing looks good from the photos. Wood framing does deflect and move. Happens every time you slam a door or the wind blows.

I'd insulate and drywall and be happy having the nice bright working space.

 

[Gizmosity]

It's been up for 12 years or so. The wall deflection is really, really bad. Any pressure on a workbench and the wall gives.... A lot. So much that I'm afraid I'll break one of those windows.

It's something I'm going to address on both sides of the shop. I can do the above pretty cheap as I can get each 2x for $1 each as long as finished length is less than 6-1/2' from a semi local surplus place that has thousands of them.

This would be a long term project. I can do this piecemeal without much effort as well.

 

[bczygan]

A little more info please.

Is the wall insulated and drywalled already?

Wall studs are nothing more than vertical beams. Wind pressure is the live load, or in your case, you pushing on the inside is the load.

How much does the wall actually move?

What are the connections at the top and bottom?

Some suggestions:
Better connections at the top and bottom of each stud will help.
If no interior drywall or sheathing has been installed, that will also help.

But the thing that will stiffen the wall the most is to either shorten the beam, as described above, or to thicken the beam by adding pilasters at enough points that the deflection is minimized.

With either of these methods you can incorporate the added structural framing into storage shelving or other useful framing. For the one near the ceiling, simply frame out some shelving at the ceiling, using plywood to form a panel every 4', that will act as a bulkhead between each 4' of shelf. Properly fastened to the wall and ceiling framing, this panel acts as a brace, like the diagonal one described above, and cuts the effective wall height while creating additional storage. A 2 to 3' tall shelf will reduce the wall movement substantially.

Bill

 

[Boomer343]

If it's survived 12 years it won't crater anytime soon. You are wasting time and resources for no structural gain that apparently isn't necessary in the first place. Put up some 3/4 plywood behind your work benches to spread out the load if it makes you feel better.

Best advice...quit pushing on the walls VBG

 

[Gizmosity]

If it's survived 12 years it won't crater anytime soon. You are wasting time and resources for no structural gain that apparently isn't necessary in the first place. Put up some 3/4 plywood behind your work benches to spread out the load if it makes you feel better.

Best advice...quit pushing on the walls VBG

Said the makers of the Titanic.

We are in the middle of ANOTHER tornado alert......right now.

 

[readhead]

Just because it has been there for 12 years does not mean it won't blow over tomorrow. One good wind event and it could be a pile of sticks. When the cow died the farmer said she never did that before.
Call an engineer tomorrow and come up with a plan.

 

[Gizmosity]

Pretty sure I have my solution but I have some architect pals and civil engineers I ride bikes with. This will be a topic of discussion on our next ride.

 

[bczygan]

BTW, we had a home design that had a similar problem. The living room was a 2 story open space with the end wall a giant 2 story window wall. It flexed terribly in the wind.

We ended putting steel tube columns in it on each side of the window to stiffen the wall. That reduced, but did not eliminate the flex. It just brought it down to acceptable levels.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I would lose the sheetrock, block it between the studs, do any wiring you might consider such as LOTS of receptacles, then insulate throughly, and skin it inside with plywood.

Charles

 

[Gizmosity]

Im liking the idea of bracing to the ceiling. Either gaining some storage or not. Its just vertical space near the walls. It can be done cheaply as well. Im not a fan of wire in my walls. I prefer the flexibility of wire in EMT. Things change and its really easy to add to, move or remove.

I had a house with a 20 foot tall 2x6 wall at the entry with lots of windows. Same issues
Broken drywall seams and massive deflection with minor pressure or wind.

We just has sustained 60mph winds and a tornado touching down 15 or so miles from here. Wind load is kind of a BIG deal. A few days hammering up some bracing and a couple hundred bucks in materials is pretty minor.

im on my phone.....internet tower is out

 

[Architorture]

if you expect to have permanent workbench areas along the walls you could also do the same thing described at the ceiling at the floor level by attaching end panels of the workbench areas to both the walls and the floors with a diagonal or a plywood end panel acting as the brace. same result with out all the ladder and gyp board finishing

i agree that standing for 12 years is not a guarantee of future performance. being in wisconsin i imagine you deal with a significant amount of snow load as well. put a bunch of wet snow on the roof then hit the walls with a big gust of wind and that deflection could turn into failure.

 

[Gizmosity]

if you expect to have permanent workbench areas along the walls you could also do the same thing described at the ceiling at the floor level by attaching end panels of the workbench areas to both the walls and the floors with a diagonal or a plywood end panel acting as the brace. same result with out all the ladder and gyp board finishing

i agree that standing for 12 years is not a guarantee of future performance. being in wisconsin i imagine you deal with a significant amount of snow load as well. put a bunch of wet snow on the roof then hit the walls with a big gust of wind and that deflection could turn into failure.

I've been considering using three solutions together. On the currently finished side I've already got nearly 35 feet of bench/cabinets. This would be perfect for tying into the slab and walls. A couple of buttresses 3-4 feet apart, centered on tbe 35' span, using some customized pallet racking, tying slab, wall and a few trusses together and cabinets filling in from buttress to wall on both sides . Structural storage is the way to go on this wall. The rest of it I see as ceiling work. I'm convinced that I don't want to give up any floor space and the full 12' ceiling height around the perimeter in shops I've had/worked in typically don't get used as much as the floor. Id like to keep the floor as clear as possible along perimeter of both spaces.

Several tornadoes touched down near here last night and did some serious damage. The wind was pretty fierce. Ive lived near here for 6 years. Ive seen 2 feet of snow drop in 24 hours. Twice. If those two things happened at the same time pretty sure it'd be a salvage job.

 

[bczygan]

One other thought.

Thinking outside the box...literally.

What is your outside cladding?

Worst case, you could let in some vertical "fins" of 2x material on the outside. and cover them with metal.

 

[Gizmosity]

Vinyl siding. Most of it will be coming off to replace rotting window frames, door frames and garage door frames and every outside corner vinyl piece as they've all been destroyed. Same issue with the house. Im doing the house first next summer and replacing all the windows. Since I have to take most of it off anyway, I'm pulling it all off and putting Tyvek up as I go. I will put new vinyl up on the front of the house and use the pieces off the house to repair the shop.

Most likely going to keep the fix on the inside. But im not ruling anything out.

 

[Architorture]

One other thought.

Thinking outside the box...literally.

What is your outside cladding?

Worst case, you could let in some vertical "fins" of 2x material on the outside. and cover them with metal.

Could create some interesting opportunities

 

[bop_pa]

Well my first thought is that plywood would provide all the support and bracing you need. Not to mention a great way to mount things to the wall. The other option is to cut in some diagonal bracing like another 2x4 or even metal bracing. Seen Bob villa do it a lot. See this link. http://www.strongtie.com/news/industry/wall-bracing/conventional.html

 

[bczygan]

People use truss walls to get more wall thickness for insulation.

You could do the same to stiffen the wall.

If doing what is shown, I would make the entire web solid with plywood, or at least a majority of it.

You could also just scab on an additional 2x4 edge to edge with the existing ones. Fastened properly and continuously with glue and fasteners, it would effectively turn your 2x4s into almost 2x8's. This might even help where drywall was already applied. Of course, another drywall layer would be needed for a finished look. But that would also give an opportunity for more insulation.

Trusses for roofs and walls can be external as well.