First Optima Red Top Life Cycle Experience

[bushmechanic]

@bushmechanic -- What's needed in the production environment? Do you know of any affordable/competitive quality spiral cell type batteries being produced today?

Standards and attention to detail.

The last good spiral cell was the Exide Purple Haze line. No consumer-focused manufacturer makes a spiral cell that's worth spitting on nowadays.

Optima is a joke.

There's no reason they can't be made properly, but it's "why-tech" in the automotive industry; as in, why do we need this technology? What does it provide the consumer that conventional plates do not?

Absolutely nothing.

In practice, you just end up with less mass and a more complicated production process. A loss on all counts.

 

[bushmechanic]

I purchased one a couple years ago for my F150. No problems, just fine and I run on board Viair compressor off of it and aftermarket LED lights.

Had one in my vette that lasted 8 years and it was still good when I replaced it. On the shelf as a back up for two years. Put it in my 1970 Bronco and sold it.

Had dual Reds in my Powerstoke about 8 years.

All these in AZ where it's pretty tough on batteries.

So, you ran two extremely efficient accessories, and that means Optima is decent?

Nope. I've had the manufacturer responsible for Viair build an entire line of compressors for me. For what they do, they don't need much juice. As for LEDs, you can run most off a turn signal circuit... Without removing the turn signals.

Basically, you're talking about putting a battery in a car and listening to the radio. Walmart can handle that more reliably than Optima.

People seem to forget that the batteries they have been using for years have been used for years. Optima crapped out in the mid-2000s. After that it was a lottery for any unit you wanted to last for more than a year.

Now it's worse. If there's any PSA that needs to be put on the air for automotive enthusiasts, it's to avoid Optima like the plague.

 

[zoomzoomjeff]

What are you do with old ones? I think I've got two sitting around in the shop that I forgot about.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[A**holes Garage]

So, you ran two extremely efficient accessories, and that means Optima is decent?

Nope. I've had the manufacturer responsible for Viair build an entire line of compressors for me. For what they do, they don't need much juice. As for LEDs, you can run most off a turn signal circuit... Without removing the turn signals.

Basically, you're talking about putting a battery in a car and listening to the radio. Walmart can handle that more reliably than Optima.

People seem to forget that the batteries they have been using for years have been used for years. Optima crapped out in the mid-2000s. After that it was a lottery for any unit you wanted to last for more than a year.

Now it's worse. If there's any PSA that needs to be put on the air for automotive enthusiasts, it's to avoid Optima like the plague.

Just reporting my personal experience with Optima Red tops. All has been satisfactory considering the use and environment of AZ. Very few batteries make it past 6-7 year out here.

Your opinion and results may vary.

 

[bushmechanic]

Just reporting my personal experience with Optima Red tops. All has been satisfactory considering the use and environment of AZ. Very few batteries make it past 6-7 year out here.

Your opinion and results may vary.

I'm pointing out that you're referring to an older unit. It's night and day between what they've been manufacturing for years and what they used to manufacture.

Used to be you could buy ten and maybe one would give up. Now you buy ten and you'll be lucky to get any more than five that last as long as a cheap flooded cell; and I'll bet three will be toast within a year if you actually use them.

I'm sure you have indeed run that Optima for a long time. That's one of the issues in this industry, though; people forget that things change. You've got people with a 50 year old Craftsman wrench equating new production to their past experience. That's not a dig on Craftsman, I'm just illustrating the point.

It's $237 for the Red Top, around $320 for an Odyssey, and $299 for the Northstar. Two of those have current bulletproof reputations.

One does not. It ain't opinion. It's fact.

 

[bushmechanic]

What are you do with old ones? I think I've got two sitting around in the shop that I forgot about.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Door stops on windy days. With the handle, you can't really do much better, and even though they don't hold up very well, they're still AGM, so unlikely to cause any pollution in your yard or mess up your concrete.

I'd still have stacks around here, but they're good for cores. The rest people actually bought for $20-$40. That marketing just bites them and you can't talk them out of it.

 

[2level]

bushmechanic -- Will you/can you explain the specific standards and attention to detail that need to be followed in spiral cell battery production? Are there any capable spiral cell battery core rebuilders that you know of?

 

[bushmechanic]

bushmechanic -- Will you/can you explain the specific standards and attention to detail that need to be followed in spiral cell battery production? Are there any capable spiral cell battery core rebuilders that you know of?

I would have explained in the past, but not now. I'm tired of trying to help educate curious people in great detail, only to find threads locked and deleted. Very few that should read the stuff ever do, anyway.

It's nothing to do with you, of course; it's just a waste of time for me.

As for the manufacturers, there is no spiral cell battery currently being produced for private motorized transport that's worth buying, unless you just like the look and don't mind returning them until you get a good one.

If you want a great, reliable AGM battery, just go Odyssey or Northstar. Each has it's own benefits. Odyssey just has a couple of drawbacks (picky charging, periodic reconditioning to reach max life, and so on) that most people will never notice, and they're a little more expensive.

 

[2level]

Share your knowledge, if you have it. Come on, it won't be a waste of time.

The old Optimas typically lasted 2-3 times longer than flooded cell batteries and cost about 2-3 times as much. The Odessey and Northstar may last 2-3 times longer, but cost 4-6 times as much. The value isn't there.

 

[LXCam]

Share your knowledge, if you have it. Come on, it won't be a waste of time.

The old Optimas typically lasted 2-3 times longer than flooded cell batteries and cost about 2-3 times as much. The Odessey and Northstar may last 2-3 times longer, but cost 4-6 times as much. The value isn't there.

Ya bush, come on man spit it out. I was a millwright in a lead acid battery plant for a couple years. I'm pretty versed in how batteries are manufactured since we manufactured for a dozen companies. Most were generic to each other but some were proprietary across the board from cathode/anode plate design, paste mix and application, acid mixtures and initial charge sequences. It was interesting for about the first few months. After that I labeled it the worst job I've ever had and I've had some pretty ****** jobs.

But please, feel free to enlighten us mere mortals.

 

[bushmechanic]

Nope. I don't fall for trolling.

If you hadn't been dicks about it, I might have delved into the subject a bit.

It's too bad. I could indeed have enlightened at least one of you, and unfortunately you just screwed the pooch for everyone else that will come upon the thread later with questions.

I hope you're happy with yourselves. Good job.

 

[jomobco]

Nope. I don't fall for trolling.

If you hadn't been dicks about it, I might have delved into the subject a bit.

It's too bad. I could indeed have enlightened at least one of you, and unfortunately you just screwed the pooch for everyone else that will come upon the thread later with questions.

I hope you're happy with yourselves. Good job.

Poor us.

 

[2level]

Nope. I don't fall for trolling.

If you hadn't been dicks about it, I might have delved into the subject a bit.

It's too bad. I could indeed have enlightened at least one of you, and unfortunately you just screwed the pooch for everyone else that will come upon the thread later with questions.

I hope you're happy with yourselves. Good job.

I can't speak for anyone else, obviously, but I was being sincere. Why wouldn't you want to share/explain what you're talking about?

 

[flan]

He took his ball and went home.

 

[chris142]

A series 65 Red Top looks to be around $235 on line.
A series 65 Exide is $84 at Menards.
Factoring in the cost of money, the RedTop needs to essentially triple the life span of an Exide to break even.

So if an Exide goes 6 years, the Red Top has to hit 18 years to match it financially.

I now feel better about pre-emptively switching out my batteries on a 66 month basis.

Ya but those stupid exide batteries constantly gas,leak and corrode everything around them.

 

[chris142]

I recently replaced my red top. It was 8 yrs old and was still starting my jeep just fine. But I figured I should replace it before I get stranded. Its replacement is a Deka intimadator.

I have 2 dekas in my truck and one has failed after 4 years.

 

[LXCam]

Nope. I don't fall for trolling.

If you hadn't been dicks about it, I might have delved into the subject a bit.

It's too bad. I could indeed have enlightened at least one of you, and unfortunately you just screwed the pooch for everyone else that will come upon the thread later with questions.

I hope you're happy with yourselves. Good job.

Aw mannnn....



/me goes back to playing kick the can

 

[Thirdyfivepickup]

Poor us.

exactly.

 

[seanc_mt]

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/electrical-wiring/913442-batteries-optima-alternatives.html

Heres a 41 page Pirate4x4 thread on optima's. An optima Rep is even on there trying to defend them and from what i remember never actually admits QC went to **** once production was moved to mexico.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/electrical-wiring/913442-batteries-optima-alternatives.html

Heres a 41 page Pirate4x4 thread on optima's. An optima Rep is even on there trying to defend them and from what i remember never actually admits QC went to **** once production was moved to mexico.

Hmm...7 year old thread. That's almost as old as the original Optima I posted about.

Thanks everyone for chiming in to tell me I screwed up in replacing it with another Optima. Oh well. If it fails it fails. If I would have gone with a different battery, the billet hold down unit in my trunk would have needed replaced....so there was some reason to stay with Optima besides the fact I had such great luck with the old one.

Moving production to Mexico is one of my pet peeves though. In the real world I purchase several items for our business that used to be made in the USA and production was moved and IN EVERY CASE quality has initially suffered, delivery times have suffered, customer service has suffered...AND NOT ONE TIME has the price ever dropped. So, if companies are concerned about their customer base, why on EARTH would you shift production to Mexico? Of course....what they are really concerned about is profits...which is why my 401K is through the roof. So...silver lining I guess.

I'll post back when my battery craps out. One week in, it is performing flawlessly.

Phil

 

[A**holes Garage]

Hmm...7 year old thread. That's almost as old as the original Optima I posted about.

Thanks everyone for chiming in to tell me I screwed up in replacing it with another Optima. Oh well. If it fails it fails. If I would have gone with a different battery, the billet hold down unit in my trunk would have needed replaced....so there was some reason to stay with Optima besides the fact I had such great luck with the old one.

Moving production to Mexico is one of my pet peeves though. In the real world I purchase several items for our business that used to be made in the USA and production was moved and IN EVERY CASE quality has initially suffered, delivery times have suffered, customer service has suffered...AND NOT ONE TIME has the price ever dropped. So, if companies are concerned about their customer base, why on EARTH would you shift production to Mexico? Of course....what they are really concerned about is profits...which is why my 401K is through the roof. So...silver lining I guess.

I'll post back when my battery craps out. One week in, it is performing flawlessly.

Phil

A good friend just bought one last week for his daily driver vette. We'll see how that holds up.

 

[bushmechanic]

He took his ball and went home.

No, he just needed to gripe on the net a bit last night.

 

[bushmechanic]

Doesn't really take much explaining, in the end. It's not even related to anything remotely complicated. They took a 90% baked design that was already difficult to manufacture for the most simple of reasons, and called Mexico.

You've got a situation in which a very fiddly and fragile cell that would otherwise mind it's own business is attached to a less than adequately supported anvil on one end.

I always liked the idea of the spiral cell case. It's a more rigid design without sacrificing resilience. The problem is the arrangement and separation of the cells themselves, and the increased mass of the connecting material.

Pop the top on a dead Optima, and you'll find almost invariably a broken lug, connection, loose parts, or simply a cell that "shorted" internally. You can't just roll up a bunch of long plates and drop them in cans like that willy-nilly.

As nice of an idea as it is, it's just too complicated to piss around with. It's a low-volume part being marketed and produced for mass consumption.

They had it right before. Early Optimas were almost as good as they claimed to be, when made in the original domestic factory. I've owned them, and they've been around much longer than many people think. They went downhill immediately upon moving production, and never recovered.

Optima used to be a fixture in overland/travel/exploration communities, but was tossed aside in favor of the previously disregarded (primarily due to price) Odyssey. Northstar cropped up later, and now that's the argument.

There's no reason you can't build a spiral cell properly, though. Optima simply doesn't do it anymore, and no other consumer-oriented manufacturer currently does, either.

You'd be hard pressed to find someone who would ever complain about a Purple Haze, and inside that case you'll find more precisely wound and cast parts, as well as extra stabilizing features under the housing cap.

It wasn't made of magic; it was just a better design using the same ideas and technology.

I've always suspected that Optima batteries weren't actually making much money when produced domestically, but I never tried to find out if that was the case or not. Nowadays they could simply jack the price since everyone is used to paying more, but that wouldn't have worked at the time, and they've now kind of burned the faith of their core consumer in favor of mass-marketing appeal.

Nothing wrong with that. It's a business decision, and it seems to have worked for them. It just hurt the battery quality.

The Red/Yellow/Blue thing has annoyed me since it didn't matter anymore, but again, there's your marketing. At least that doesn't cause any issues beyond the most amusing arguments you'll ever hear.

Right now, unfortunately, Optima is the Kel-Tec of car batteries; full of great ideas they pioneered in the consumer industry, but unable to fit them in a frame properly. I'd love to see them come back, and I'm not the only one, but we've been waiting too long at this point.

A few more years and they'll be just another Autozone decoration.

 

[2level]

Thanks for expanding a bit on the Optima design and manufacturing issues, bushmechanic.

Now, I'm wondering about the feasibility of sourcing components/plate materials and rebuilding existing and/or '1st generation' Optima cores to the same quality as the originals. Your thoughts?

 

[bushmechanic]

Thanks for expanding a bit on the Optima design and manufacturing issues, bushmechanic.

Now, I'm wondering about the feasibility of sourcing components/plate materials and rebuilding existing and/or '1st generation' Optima cores to the same quality as the originals. Your thoughts?

Huh. I hadn't ever thought about "rebuilding" a battery. The materials aren't difficult to find, so that's not an issue.

The cells themselves wouldn't be a problem because you could take your time. Might have to rig up a spindle jig of some kind with a ram to get them tight enough, though.

The connectors would be easy.

The problem would be combining those two features in a limited home/shop environment. It's been done many ways, but I can't think of any that would be practical unless you just wanted a personal project. I certainly don't think a business could be made of it, but then again... Facebook exists.

Won't be easy, though. That said, it's always possible a plumber or pipe-fitter could chime in, call me an idiot, and show that I've overlooked the most obvious, five-minute way to do it. My only regular interaction with lead is with a soldering iron.

Perhaps if I really sat down and thought about it I'd come up with a good solution, but I'm intoxicated enough at the moment that I find typing this sentence incredibly amusing.

Then comes the housing. If you want, you could keep the top as-is, but I don't think I'd be able to resist bolstering the connectors. There's no way around that being a pain in the ***, but it can be done in a number of ways on a workbench.

Hell, I don't know how far 3D printing has advanced. Might just be able to print a support to drop right in there if they're capable of using the right polymers.

Would it be a cool project? I believe so, but there are safety concerns, and it's not at all a weekend endeavor. This would be something to do purely because you desire to do it; perhaps even because you just like the look.

You could certainly build a great battery. Time would be on your side, and nothing beats that level of attention to detail. The design itself is solid, if a bit unnecessary. No drastic alterations would be required for improvement.

Might just be easier to pick up a new one and reuse as much as possible.

Regardless, I do encourage picking up a **** unit if you can do so for free or a few bucks just to pull it apart. You'll more easily see what I've been on about, and how it's possible for a design to be incredibly durable in use, yet equally vulnerable in manufacture. It'll be easier to understand the difficulties they encountered, as well.

 

[2level]

Copy that, bushmechanic. I may try to revive my Optimas when they **** out. I have electrolyte for flooded cell batteries, but finding the correct plate material for an AGM battery could prove difficult.

 

[bushmechanic]

Copy that, bushmechanic. I may try to revive my Optimas when they **** out. I have electrolyte for flooded cell batteries, but finding the correct plate material for an AGM battery could prove difficult.

There's more to it, like depositing materials on the plates, but nothing that can't be handled with a bit of brushing up on a touch of chemistry and certain physics disciplines.

Here's something interesting; a comparison of something as simple as a commercial. One from Northstar, and another from Optima. You can really spot the difference in corporate image and focus on marketing:

Northstar:

Optima:

https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/experience/2016/11/optima-batteries-commercial-family

One looks like a 3AM commercial on the Speed channel for bro-dozers, and the other discusses in brief why and how a company began and expanded into an absolutely massive player in power storage and distribution across the globe.

Even Optima's marketing has devolved into something that looks like it was dropped off the back of a Duralast van.

Now, I know they're only commercials, but such advertisement is a big indicator of the focus a company places on creating a "cool" brand versus creating a business plan with clear objectives and sticking to it, damn the consequences.

120 countries, and every single product is developed, sourced on the materials level, and produced right here in USA. They do a lot of work in underdeveloped nations to bring power to more people, as well.

Optima is a stone's throw away from blasting Metallica and bouncing ***** at prospective buyers.

 

[gregaz]

Have you looked at Odyssey batteries? Some people I know who used to swear by Optima, have switched to Odyssey.

http://www.odysseybattery.com

 

[bushmechanic]

Have you looked at Odyssey batteries? Some people I know who used to swear by Optima, have switched to Odyssey.

http://www.odysseybattery.com

They've been discussed in the thread.

 

[2level]

There's more to it, like depositing materials on the plates, but nothing that can't be handled with a bit of brushing up on a touch of chemistry and certain physics disciplines.

10-4


Even Optima's marketing has devolved into something that looks like it was dropped off the back of a Duralast van.

Bwahahaha!

Optima is a stone's throw away from blasting Metallica and bouncing ***** at prospective buyers.

Would probably work, especially combining ((.))((.)) with some of Metallica's early stuff.

 

[chris142]

Copy that, bushmechanic. I may try to revive my Optimas when they **** out. I have electrolyte for flooded cell batteries, but finding the correct plate material for an AGM battery could prove difficult.

My grandpaw rebuilt batteries during the depression.

 

[LXCam]

Build your own batteries at home


Buhahahahahahahaaaaa


Let me tell you guys something. Desulferizing the standard lead acid plate type battery and rebuilding cells is something that has possibilities in your garage as long as you have donor batteries. But recreating a lead grid plate, developing and applying the caustic paste as well as finding the correct dielectric isolators in order to replicate a standard design would be damn near impossible from scratch. Now attempting to do this to a spiral cell design without incurring thousands of dollars worth of very specialized tooling and equipment would be a serious pipe dream.

But I'll take my hat off to anyone willing to give that a shot. I will also warn you that there's some nasty **** inside these things and you be damn careful Fn around with one. I spent two years of my life in every aspect of a battery plant and in the end came away with a tremendous amount of knowledge of their construction and a nice case of lead poisoning to boot.

Sooooo knock yourself out

 

[2level]

Build your own batteries at home


Buhahahahahahahaaaaa


Let me tell you guys something. Desulferizing the standard lead acid plate type battery and rebuilding cells is something that has possibilities in your garage as long as you have donor batteries. But recreating a lead grid plate, developing and applying the caustic paste as well as finding the correct dielectric isolators in order to replicate a standard design would be damn near impossible from scratch. Now attempting to do this to a spiral cell design without incurring thousands of dollars worth of very specialized tooling and equipment would be a serious pipe dream.

But I'll take my hat off to anyone willing to give that a shot. I will also warn you that there's some nasty **** inside these things and you be damn careful Fn around with one. I spent two years of my life in every aspect of a battery plant and in the end came away with a tremendous amount of knowledge of their construction and a nice case of lead poisoning to boot.

Sooooo knock yourself out

So, rebuilding is feasible as long as I wear a paper mask and don't get chemicals on my skin, wife beater, or cut-off jean shorts?

 

[LXCam]

So, rebuilding is feasible as long as I wear a paper mask and don't get chemicals on my skin, wife beater, or cut-off jean shorts?

Ya. Btw the skin heals and so will the lungs. But the damn acid will destroy your clothing. Point being don't wear your favorite jeans when dicking around with batteries.

 

[bushmechanic]

Hell, you're not going to catch me trying it, that's for sure.

Possible and reasonable are two different things. Safety aside, it would be a very expensive project. You're not just building a battery, you're trying for a top-tier, high density, AGM automotive battery.

Any idiot can build a battery, but not even Optima can build an Optima.

 

[cthulu]

Had a redtop give out after 2 years, I guess yellowtop is where its at if you're going with an optima.

 

[2level]

Ya. Btw the skin heals and so will the lungs. But the damn acid will destroy your clothing. Point being don't wear your favorite jeans when dicking around with batteries.

Hey now, don't you be dissing on my cut-off jean shorts! They go real nice wit my one-lens KMart safety glasses. And before you question my uno lenses safety glass -- I only need to protect the one eye cause the other one's wonky.
And no, I wasn't born dat way -- experimental homemade lithium battery accident.