First time poster....worried dad

[Pollux7777]

Hello everyone! This is my first post here. I stumbled onto this forum "researching" an electrical issue. And by "researching" I mean "worriedly googling".

So here's the deal. I'm looking for someone knowledgeable to either confirm/deny my paranoia. My family and I just moved into our new home. It's a traditional 2-story single family home built in 1967. We did a number of improvements to the home, including new hardwood flooring. We hired out the floors, but in an effort to save some money, we chose to put the baseboards back on ourselves. We installed them without any issues. Afterwards I started googling baseboard installation. Don't ask me why I googled after the job, it's just the way I am, I google incessantly... Sigh.

Anyway, I came across a carpentry forum and one poster mentioned to the OP to make sure you ALWAYS nail baseboard into the studs to avoid hitting an electrical wire. We didn't even think about that at the time. After searching a bit more I found several other posts by people who either had hit a wire or were worried about it like me.

To be clear, at this point I have no reason to think I hit anything. No sparks, no tripped breakers etc. Rather, my worry comes from reading posts such as the following, taken from another forum:
"By nailing into the
wiring and causing a dead short some of the copper wire is probably nicked.
The wire may only be connected at that point by a hair, more or less.
Depending on the load that travels over that point it can overheat and if it
is in contact with combustible materials will burn whatever it touches.
Eventually the wire will burn apart and whatever it is feeding will become
dead. To answer your question: Yes it is a potential fire hazard.

Now I lay awake at night wondering if I have a ticking time bomb hidden in my walls

We used a pneumatic nail gun with 2" finishing brads.

So what do you guys think?

 

[mayday0017]

Sleep well, the odds of hitting an electrical wire with a 2" brad installing baseboards is pretty slim... Won't say it "couldn't happen" but the odds are so low that I wouldn't worry about it any.

 

[Pollux7777]

I appreciate the quick reply. Just for some peace of mind, would there be any kind of clue or indicator if I had? Smoke? Tripped breaker, etc?

 

[1/2 Cup]

Not to be a scare monger, I have seen this happen before, my sister moved into a new home and there was a power point that never worked in the master bedroom, but never worried about it too much. She decided, some years later to renovate the room which entailed replacement of the dry wall revealing that the base board had been nailed through the cable (run horizontally ) that fed the power point, cutting the live conductor and shorting it out to the foil wrap. There was burn marks on the studs at that point.
I am a bit old fashioned when it comes to cable routes, for the sake of a little more cable I always install them vertically and not horizontally through the studs for that exact reason.
An issue like this can be difficult to detect. Safety switches ( or what we call Earth leakage circuit breakers ) installed to at your switch board can detect in balances and earth faults, affording a degree of piece of mind.

 

[pl_silverado]

I wouldn't worry about hitting wires at all, since the chances are slim to none. If you hit a water pipe on the other hand, like I did, you'll find out instantly.

 

[p_mori7]

I hit a live wire with a screw once...trust me I knew it immediately !

Was using a drill with a screwdriver bit, so I didn't get shocked...but the zap noise it made was unmistakable...result was a blown breaker and a dead outlet.

Cut open the sheet rock, pulled a new wire to the outlet (was daisy chained from another outlet in the same room)...engaged the breaker...checked the circuit...all good.

 

["THE BURNNER"]

If you hit a write you'd know it. Visa fire or constant tripped breaker. You should be ok

What's under the hood??? If you have to ask maybe we shouldn't race...

 

[rsanter]

I had this happen to me but not with baseboards.
Tripped the breaker Immediately

A key reason you want to hit the studs when attaching baseboards is that the drywall won't hold as well. Going into the wood does

Bob

 

[MrMark]

Do you even know if the wires come up through the sole plate? Are you on a raised foundation (crawl space with wires running through the space) or basement? If so, you can go underneath and spot any wires that would be coming up through the base/sole plate and then check your nails in that spot. Slab foundation would have no such issue unless come crazy deal with an underground conduit or something weird.

Nailing into a stud with baseboard is a bit safer (and a good building practice because the baseshoe is tall enough that it needs nails toward the top too), but 99 percent of houses have such nails just shot anywhere. The are lucky to hit anything, let alone a stud. The building requirements for drilled holes as it concerns your issue is that there must be 1 1/4" of wood to nail to before touching the outside of the hole. Otherwise it needs a nailplate. But, with baseboard and your nails you could still hit a wire running through a drilled hole in a stud. Especially given that they are usually not drilled with much care and wouldn't be in the exact center.

Realistically though, very seldom would a drilled hole and wire be running horizontally that low. More realistic is a wire coming up through the sole plate so you are rightly concerned if you blindly nailed without checking wire location.

I'm glad you brought it up because best practice is to nail plate any penetrations through the sole/base plate. That's what I've done in the past.

 

[MrMark]

There would most likely be no clue to answer your question.
The only way you would get a clue is if you bridged the hot and neutral and or ground to create a dead short.

You could test the nail head with a multimeter to see if it is hot or has continuity to neutral.

 

[ddawg16]

Do you even know if the wires come up through the sole plate? Are you on a raised foundation (crawl space with wires running through the space) or basement? If so, you can go underneath and spot any wires that would be coming up through the base/sole plate and then check your nails in that spot. Slab foundation would have no such issue unless come crazy deal with an underground conduit or something weird.

Nailing into a stud with baseboard is a bit safer (and a good building practice because the baseshoe is tall enough that it needs nails toward the top too), but 99 percent of houses have such nails just shot anywhere. The are lucky to hit anything, let alone a stud. The building requirements for drilled holes as it concerns your issue is that there must be 1 1/4" of wood to nail to before touching the outside of the hole. Otherwise it needs a nailplate. But, with baseboard and your nails you could still hit a wire running through a drilled hole in a stud. Especially given that they are usually not drilled with much care and wouldn't be in the exact center.

Realistically though, very seldom would a drilled hole and wire be running horizontally that low. More realistic is a wire coming up through the sole plate so you are rightly concerned if you blindly nailed without checking wire location.

I'm glad you brought it up because best practice is to nail plate any penetrations through the sole/base plate. That's what I've done in the past.

That was my first thought as well.

If you have a concrete foundation.....you do NOT have wires coming up through the sole plate...

However....

You will have water pipes.....you 'could' puncture a vent line or water pipe....

I know...I have you worried again.

If it was a water pipe....much like the wire issue, if you hit it....you would have already known.

If it's a vent pipe....the nail will seal the hole....and unless the pipe gets flooded with water...it will never be an issue.

 

[G_P]

You could test the nail head with a multimeter to see if it is hot or has continuity to neutral.

Take a meter and set it to AC volts. Attach one meter lead to a ground in a convinent outlet. Touch the other lead to all the nail heads. If you get voltage on the meter your nail hit a hot wire.

If you get nothing put one meter lead into the hot slot on an outlet and recheck all nailheads. If you get voltage your nail hit a neutral or ground.

Do not check for continuity unless the power is shut off at the breaker.

Seriously though the chance of having hit a wire is pretty slim.



Sent via carrier pigeon.

 

[Pollux7777]

Thanks for all these responses guys.

I can't really put a meter to the nails at this point, since they have been covered over with caulk and paint.

I went to the basement, to try to look up and see what I could see. It looks like a lot of the electrical wires are wrapped in some kind of a steel wrapped tubing, so hopefully that would offer some level of protection? I can't really see all the way up though to see if any penetrations occurred.

Overall, based on your responses I feel pretty good. I just hate the fact that there's a possibility of a "slow leak" so to speak, which could become worse over time. It would be nicer if the only possibility was a loud pop and fizzle, so there was no mistaking.

Is there any kind of a test an electrician could do to check? Some kind of tool perhaps?

 

[LXCam]

Get yourself a non contact inductive voltage indicator. If you hit a hot lead you'll know. The meter idea is the best solution as it'll confirm if your making contact with a neutral or ground. But as been previously beaten into your head by now, the chances of hitting anything that low in the wall with a frame on slab is fricking close to nuttin. But in the slim chance you did I'd like to ask a favor from ya bud.....please help me pick my next lotto numbers. Thanks!!

 

[Pollux7777]

It's actually not frame on slab. There's an unfinished basement below. How would that tool you mentioned work? The nail heads are all covered with paint and caulk at this point. Is it expensive?

 

[LXCam]

Cheap, anywhere from $12.00 to $25 on the average.

http://www.alliedelec.com/search/pr...=18584061259&gclid=CI_dhLaApLkCFa9eQgodfiYA4A

 

[Tucko]

Take a bong hit, and go to bed. No worries here. When nailing in baseboard, you will NEVER hit a stud. Aim low, and nail into the bottom sill.

 

[MrMark]

That metal conduit you see sounds like flex conduit. It is very thin and in no way will stop a nail. Just use the noncontact tester as posted above for your piece of mind. It won't tell you if you tagged the neutral but to get killed off touching the neutral is a bit harder than with the hot. 1q

 

[MTW]

If there was a serious problem you would probably know by now.

Here is an example of a addition project I worked on years ago, with a similar situation to yours. We added an addition to the back of a home and needed to relocate the electric service to the new back wall. The customer was going to install a hot / whirlpool tub in the room. We installed the new service, re-fed the existing panel, and then wired the room as requested. A few weeks later the customer called and complained of the old panel was leaking water. Upon investigation it was found that one of the NM-B romex cables was transporting water into the panel under a slight pressure.

We tried to locate the errant fastener with the methods mentioned earlier, but to no avail. Everything was finished and painted as in your case. The builder knew where the water lines were located but that didn't help. After the drywall was removed around the water piping, it was found. A long errant screw had pierced the cables outer jacket without nicking any wire, and then went on to pierce the water pipe. The water was being pumped up across the home through the cable jacket and draining into the electric panel.

The cable and the pipe were installed with the required 1 1/4" clearance, but a 3" screw can reach just about anything inside the wall cavity. The cable and pipe were properly installed and inspected, inside the stud cavity. And the only way to protect a wire along it entire length is to install it in conduit.

Lesson learned is use a fastener that is sized to the job at hand and no longer. Use a stud locator to find them to properly place your fasteners.

 

[Zeke]

I'm a builder and I think you're fine. A minimum base is 1/2" and a minimum wall is 1/2". So you have only 1" of nail to reach the wire. Your chances of hitting the wire, actually 2 wires, is slim. The chances of reaching a wire centered in the plate are even slimmer.

If you really want to pursue this, get a stud finder that will indicate the presence of electrical current and tell you where the nails are as well as the studs. Through the process of elimination you will find that no nails have hit wires. You might find a couple of close ones, but close only counts in horseshoes and explosives.

Report back.

 

[2ManyProjects]

Now I lay awake at night wondering if I have a ticking time bomb hidden in my walls

I'll echo the other responses you've already gotten and opine that you PROBABLY don't have anything to worry about. And all things considered, that's the best you're going to get at this point in the game. No one can give you a 100% ironclad definitive answer without tearing your walls apart and physically inspecting each and every fastener location. So it comes down to... Just how paranoid (and/or OCD) are you?

That said, weird stuff CAN happen. It just doesn't happen very often (which is, of course, part of what makes it weird). For example, one of the things we discovered while cleaning up the mess Sandy made of my shore home was a branch circuit which suddenly started popping its circuit breaker more than six months AFTER the waters had receded. It had been working just fine up to that point (in fact, we had been using an outlet on that circuit to power a box-type fan to keep air moving around the house, as an aid to the overall drying-out process). As you can probably imagine, it took some serious noodling to diagnose this; but we did eventually find the cause: The house had been through a fairly extensive remodelling some 20+ years earlier. At that time, much new electrical was run; all of it done strictly to code, by a licensed professional (yet moronic, IMCO; but that's another story) electrician. And for the ensuing 20+ years, all was well -- or so we thought. However, it turned out that elsewhere on that same branch circuit, a single staple had been driven home a bit too tightly when securing the NM cable to a stud. That crushed the insulation JUST enough that when water started wicking up via the paper liner inside the jacket, it eventually formed a high-resistance short between the hot wire and the bare ground. Add six months of ongoing corrosion, and... Voilà! We replaced that section of wiring, and all is well again. (We think. )

 

[dellwas]

The sounds and sights of Battalion 14 pulling up. Why don't you save yourself from going crazy and hire an electrician for an hour or so to have a look.

I appreciate the quick reply. Just for some peace of mind, would there be any kind of clue or indicator if I had? Smoke? Tripped breaker, etc?

 

[theoldwizard1]

I appreciate the quick reply. Just for some peace of mind, would there be any kind of clue or indicator if I had? Smoke? Tripped breaker, etc?

Yes and yes. My buddy lost a small chunk of his shovel when he hit the improperly buried 240V line to my garage ! BANG, smoke, tripped breaker.

Most horizontal electric cable runs in walls are not that close to the floor.

 

[rlev11]

I lived in a house for a while that was last remodeled in late 60's early 70's (think dark brown paneling,olive green carpeting, and drop ceilings).Anyway, when whoever put up the drop ceiling, one of the nails for the outer grid punctured an electric line and made the whole grid hot. I only found out when I was replacing the panels and felt a little twinge when I touched the grid. It had been like that for probably 25 years and would still be like that if no one ever did anything to the ceiling

 

[Pollux7777]

Thanks guys. I really, really appreciate all your insight.

As I said in my original post, I don't have any reason to suspect anything is wrong. What do I have, is a borderline OCD personality which has only been exacerbated since the birth of my daughter. Whenever I suspect something as being even remotely dangerous to her, I tend to obsess endlessly about it.

It's actually quite crippling and I struggle to keep it in check so it doesn't rob me of being happy and enjoying the moment. I'm a work in progress

I think I will get an electrician out just so I can let it go once and for all and get some peace of mind.

Now I have to figure out how to do that/pay for it without my wife finding out. She thinks I'm crazy (probably am) and would be pissed if she knew I "wasted" money on such a thing.

 

[theoldwizard1]

What do I have, is a borderline OCD personality which has only been exacerbated since the birth of my daughter. Whenever I suspect something as being even remotely dangerous to her, I tend to obsess endlessly about it.

Pause, Take several deep breaths. Step back from the situation. Enjoy it while you can !

I missed or forgot most of my children's younger years. I am thankful that they have now blessed me with 4 grandchildren and 1 more on the way. The sound of 4 little year old girls laughing and play around a little blow up pool is amazing !

Appreciate it now, because you may not get another chance !