Fixing a paint situation

[dgeesaman]

I just finished doing the Behr 1-part epoxy floor paint. My prep was:
- 2 year old, unstained concrete
- Behr degreaser
- Behr muriatic acid etcher

And two coats of the one-part epoxy paint. Even after weeks of cure time, paint peeled when I pulled the truck into the front half of the garage for a simple oil change.

I see maybe two mistakes in the above:
1) Using the Behr one-part. (My wife bought it before I had done research)
2) The muriatic acid didn't appear to do anything some of the concrete. The best I can describe is that some areas in the concrete coarsened and bubbled a lot, and other areas didn't seem to react. The pattern was kind of swirly groups of coin-sized spots, which looked to me like texture from the original concrete finishing. Using extra acid didn't change things, so I went on to the next step.

Where did I go wrong?

It would seem that renting a grinder would be the next step. If I grind off the old stuff, will I need to use acid again? (I would prefer not to).

I'm looking this time at Ucoat-It, Wolverine, or something else that's gotten good reviews here. Suggestions and tips appreciated

David

 

[roger55]

I just finished doing the Behr 1-part epoxy floor paint. My prep was:
- 2 year old, unstained concrete
- Behr degreaser
- Behr muriatic acid etcher

And two coats of the one-part epoxy paint. Even after weeks of cure time, paint peeled when I pulled the truck into the front half of the garage for a simple oil change.

I see maybe two mistakes in the above:
1) Using the Behr one-part. (My wife bought it before I had done research)
2) The muriatic acid didn't appear to do anything some of the concrete. The best I can describe is that some areas in the concrete coarsened and bubbled a lot, and other areas didn't seem to react. The pattern was kind of swirly groups of coin-sized spots, which looked to me like texture from the original concrete finishing. Using extra acid didn't change things, so I went on to the next step.

Where did I go wrong?

It would seem that renting a grinder would be the next step. If I grind off the old stuff, will I need to use acid again? (I would prefer not to).

I'm looking this time at Ucoat-It, Wolverine, or something else that's gotten good reviews here. Suggestions and tips appreciated

David

The Behr one part is decent for walls and steps but not garage floors.

I wouldn't consider Ucoat-it.
It is a low solids, water-based product. They don't state the % solids, but I would estimate 40% or so and it's $90 a gallon.
You can get a good quality 100% solids epoxy for $75 a gallon. So, Ucoat-It is 60% less product on your floor for $15 more a gallon!
I used Ucoat-It on a garage a few years ago. I was not happy with it.

After grinding, if your concrete has a 60 grit sandpaper type feel, you shouldn't need to acid treat it before applying 2 part epoxy. But, check with the manufacturer of the product you are going to use.

I just built a new shop/garage and have not decided what to do yet. But it will be epoxy and I have decided not to use flakes.

 

[AlphaGarage]

If you grind of the current coating that action should be sufficient prep for a subsequent epoxy coating.

According to their MSDS the UCoatIt product is about 41% solids. They suggest that 2 gallons of their product will cover approx 540 sq ft. That would mean a depth of 5.92 mils when wet, but more importantly 2.43 mils when it's finished curing.

Whereas with a 100% solids epoxy 2 gallons would cover that same sq ft at 5.92 mils when finished.

So one would need 4.88 gallons of 41% solids epoxy to get the same finished coat depth as 2 gallons of 100% solids epoxy.

But even at the same finished depth the diluted product would probably be a bit performance challenged because it would be riddled with microscopic tunnels created as its solvents percolated to the surface during curing. So instead of a solid impermeable monolithic floor system, one ends up with a coating riddled with tiny holes, a swiss cheese floor.

 

[dgeesaman]

Thanks for the responses.

Alphagarage, why do you take the time to speculate about the shortcomings of your competitor's products by name and not mention any of the benefits of your own? You could have simply said that you and your company believe in 100% epoxy systems and that UCoat-It products are not. Or that you don't believe they are comparable in performance. At this point I've learned little about Wolverine and your negative discussion has me less interested in listening to you.

I'm an engineer myself (mechanical, not chemical) and open to learning about the technical merits of different systems. But I am definitely sensitive to poor salesmanship and I will buy elsewhere out of spite.

Dave

 

[04 Navi]

Thanks for the responses.

Alphagarage, why do you take the time to speculate about the shortcomings of your competitor's products by name and not mention any of the benefits of your own? You could have simply said that you and your company believe in 100% epoxy systems and that UCoat-It products are not. Or that you don't believe they are comparable in performance. At this point I've learned little about Wolverine and your negative discussion has me less interested in listening to you.

I'm an engineer myself (mechanical, not chemical) and open to learning about the technical merits of different systems. But I am definitely sensitive to poor salesmanship and I will buy elsewhere out of spite.

Dave

Hey newbie maybe earn some stripes first before you go shooting your mouth off. If you've read anything on the board you know that AG sells Wolverine and he even states it in his signature. Maybe his response is less than fulfilling, for lack of a better word, but nevertheless it is truthful.

Since you are a engineer and are open to learning, as you state, then use the search button and there is a ton of pages on the subject, otherwise a two poster like yourself comes across as a troll.

Oh and he did state the benifits of 100% epoxy, and by not specifically mentioning Wolverine, he left the door open for other competitors that sell the 100% solids. One that comes to mind is Devoe.

 

[AlphaGarage]

I'm not speculating at all. Their MSDS states that the have 41% solids, that's a simple fact. There are plenty of epoxies that are 100% solids, also a fact.

That an additive needs to evaporate is not speculation, it is a fact. That an epoxy cures and isn't able to fill in the trails cause by an evacuating additive isn't a guess, it is a fact.

If I responded with claims about why my product is superior other members would post that I'm just pimping my own stuff, so I avoided that.

I only pointed out what is pretty much accepted fact in the coatings industry, a 100% solids epoxy is the more durable product.. In this case even UCoatit seems to acknowledge that a 100% epoxy is superior. Why do I think that? Because if you look at their site they sell the 59% water epoxy as their "commercial-grade epoxy floor coating." However for floors that are going to see serious use UCoatit sells a premium epoxy that "...provides greater resistance to heavy duty use in mechanical areas or professional repair facilities." (their words), it is, of course, a 100% solids epoxy, and at $143 per gallon a bit pricey. Ours is $75/gallon (was that negative or not?).

It looks like I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't. I wouldn't mind posting all the advantages of Wolverine epoxies vs. competitors, but many members would understandably be upset. On the other hand when someone posts about a product that probably isn't the best option, I like to offer what I know is a better alternative, even if I don't push my products. I suppose that can be seen as poor salesmanship, but not all my posts are designed to sell product, sometimes, in fact more often than not, I just want to share information.

When people call or email us directly for info, then we respond directly to them in private with the rundown on all the advantages of our coatings. In this case, in a public thread, I simply stated what is factual, i.e with the the basic UCoatit kit one pays for 59% water that evaporates, and the resulting coating isn't as strong as a good 100% solids coat, 2 facts that even UCoatit seems to agree with.

 

[dgeesaman]

I'm not speculating at all. Their MSDS states that the have 41% solids, that's a simple fact. There are plenty of epoxies that are 100% solids.

That an additive needs to evaporate is not speculation, it is a fact. That an epoxy cures and isn't able to fill in the trails cause by an evacuating additive isn't a guess, it is a fact.

If I responded with claims about why my product is superior other members would posyt that I'm just pimping my own stuff, so I avoided that.

I only pointed out what is pretty much accepted fact in the coatings industry, a 100% solids epoxy is the more durable product.. In this case even UCoatit seems to acknowledge that a 100% epoxy is superior. Why do I think that? Because if you look at their site they sell the 59% water epoxy as their "commercial-grade epoxy floor coating." However for floors that are going to see serious use UCoatit sells a premium epoxy that "...provides greater resistance to heavy duty use in mechanical areas or professional repair facilities." (their words), it, of course, is a 100% solids epoxy, and at $143 per gallon a bit pricey. Ours is $75/gallon (was that negative or not?).

It looks like I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't. I wouldn't mind posting all the advantages of Wolverine epoxies vs. competitors, but many members would understandably be upset. On the other hand when someone posts about a product that probably isn't the best option, I like to offer what I know is a better alternative, even if I don't push my products. I suppose that can be seen as poor salesmanship, but not all my posts are designed to sell product, sometimes, in fact more often than not, I just want to share information.

When people call or email us directly for info, then we respond directly to them in private with the rundown on all the advantages of our coatings. In this case, in a public thread, I simply stated what is factual, i.e with the the basic UCoatit kit one pays for 51% water that evaporates, and the resulting coating isn't as strong as a good 100% solids coat, 2 facts that even UCoatit seem to agree with.

I made bold what would have helped most in the first place. If you read them without anything else I don't see how it could be offensive to a competitor. It wasn't even necessary to mention "UCoat-it", if your main point was that one mentioned product was 100% solid and another was not.

Perhaps you assumed common knowledge, but I didn't know it. I'm just starting to learn about floor treatments, and shame on me for not sitting in silence and reading for days until the tidbits of info I wanted finally came through in the traffic.

I spent a couple hours reading some back threads, tried to search for introductory info, but my search strings were not doing much to filter down to anything basic. (Suggestion for the moderators - a FAQ or list of links to good introductory discussions would be very helpful. I moderate another forum and this info put into a sticky thread has been well received and cuts down on newbie noise). I spent a good deal of time on google as well, and again it's very hard to filter out stuff for sale and really rudimentary information written for the Home-Depot-Joes of the world. I am thankful that I found this forum and there is serious and informed discussion about the subject.

Dave

 

[FFPL]

Dave I have to agree that its really difficult to get any clear information on doing what, would seem to be a simple job, done. I found the garage journal and wolverine through the same exercise to I can certainly sympathize.
I did my floor (>1800sqft) at the beginning of this year and am currently doing my neighbors also using the wolverine product. Both Fred and the wolverine company (aka Eric) have been really helpful. I thought my floor was great but my neighbors project is turning out even better (experience I guess).
If you're in MA and close enough I would certainly be willing to give you a helping hand. If not I can certainly try to give you any information you need to successfully do your project.

 

[dgeesaman]

Thanks for the offer, but I'm in PA not MA.

For now it looks like the re-coating project will wait until spring. That way the concrete will be plenty warm and for now the cash and time is better spent on other items. (This is a 2-car garage on a tight budget, not a garage majal)

At the very least the current floor coating will serve well to clean up easily and prevent oil stains. I'll live with the peeling under the tire treads until next year.

Dave

 

[menz300]

Actually your concrete will be warmer now than in the spring. Your concrete is warmer now from holding the heat all summer and in the spring will be cooler from the winter. Fred at Alpha is very knowledgeable and I haven't used any of their products yet. Feel free to take time and read these boards as there is a lot of useful info here for all levels of people from pros to DIY'rs.

 

[04 Navi]

Do not wait until spring. Moisture is at it's lowest and temps are more than high enough to do it now. Spring can be the worst time because the cement takes a awful amount of time to heat up.

 

[dgeesaman]

I had the temperature issue in mind, so "spring" was a general term. Next summer is more like it.

I can deal with the existing paint being chewed up for year. I have projects and other stuff to focus on. I started this thread and research now because if chemical stripping was required, then time would have been important.

Dave