Fixing broken cap on step

[shinnen]

Hi,
I know this is not a garage related problem; but I was reading a thread on adhesives for a wall cap and was impressed with the degree of knowledge here.
We recently had railings installed on our veranda, and while drilling holes for the handrail post, the installer cracked one of the steps, which are capped with black limestone (2" thick). I now have three small pieces and several chards. I would like to glue these together, and re-attach it to the step, so what I need is a very strong adhesive that will withstand drilling, since the holes are not completed, plus the weather of southern Ontario. I have haunted the local Rona, Home Depot, and Lowes, but am not sure what to choose. It will not take a great deal of load, just the hand rail. After repairing, I will probably paint all three steps with garage paint, so that it will look uniform
I am attaching a picture of the break, which shows a piece of the broken material.
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
..... john

 

[lilredex]

Don't think you'll have any luck gluing that back together. I'd look for another step or, seeing you are planning to paint it, you could cast a concrete replacement. Use that rough edge covered with thin plastic to duplicate it in your new concrete.

 

[Bent Handle]

I own a landscaping company and we use srw adhesive for all our glue ups. The stuff provides the best bond of anything I’ve tried.

 

[PassnThru]

Well - I have to ask. If you hired someone to install the railings then why is it your problem and not theirs?

 

[rlitman]

...It will not take a great deal of load, just the hand rail...

This makes no sense.

 

[yelchevelle]

There are some really impressive glues, adhesives, thinsets,etc out there. I install hardscape for a living. There is nothing I can think of that I would trust as a long term solution in Alabama, much less in the freezing climate of Ontario. Especially if you are covering it with a handrail. If it doesn’t work, it’s really going to be a pain to fix. Correct move is complete replacement.

 

[Slowboat]

West System G flex

 

[nadogail]

When I hire a contractor to install something, their price includes their coverage for errors and omissions.

 

[shinnen]

Gentlemen
Thank you all for your answers
lilredex - I thought about that but am not sure it would support the railing, without breaking at the seam.
Bent Handle - Thanks for the suggestion. I see that it's an epoxy. I probably won't be able to get that here. Is there something special about this epoxy?
PassnThru - Yes, for sure; but I took a reduction in my bill, thinking that it was either that or taking them to court, which wouldn't be worth it.
rlitman - I was implying that the hand rail wouldn't create a great deal of stress.
Yelchevelle = I was thinking that a mastic epoxy or just a regular epoxy might do it? It's not a large fix.
Slowboat - Thanks for the suggestion. I'll check that out.
nadogail - Well, this repair, i.e. replacing the step cap, would cost about half of what I paid for the entire railings installation. I'm not sure I would have gone for that appraisal.
I considered replacing the entire cap, which I can get, but that would cost $400 (can) to get to the house. After that I would have to pay to have someone remove the old cap and install the new one; which I cannot do, due to it's weight (175lbs); so I imagine I'm probably looking at about $1000+. So ...... I would like to go the repair route first.
...... john

 

[rlitman]

...I was implying that the hand rail wouldn't create a great deal of stress...

Yeah, I know. And it's dangerously wrong. And when someone gets hurt after leaning on this handrail...

Think of it this way. A handrail is a giant prybar. Likely bigger than any prybar the majority of us have in our shops. It creates tremendous force where it is secured, and being a safety device, people get hurt when it fails.

 

[BillK]

Were you planning to only have the railing attached to that "cap" or were the screws or bolts going to go down into the concrete below ? Without having a bigger picture of what you are working with I think I would drill about a 1 1/2" or maybe larger hole all the way through the cap and down into the concrete below. Then use a piece of pipe with a flat plate on the top to support the railing ? I dont think your cap material will ever support any type of fasteners like the ones it looks like you were planning to use. With the cap broken now you could form it around the pipe and "glue" it back together and it might stay that way for a while.

A picture from further back showing the entire project might help come up with better suggestions.

 

[MoonRise]

Trying to 'glue' the broken stone pieces back together is not the right way to fix the broken step. IMNSHO

Which as rlitman keeps (correctly) pointing out to you, is more than just a step. It is the anchor structure for the hand rail. Which is Darn-Important.

The anchor point for a hand rail post creates a LOT of stress and load in the structure underneath. Like rlitman pointed out (correctly again), the hand rail post is a a big lever. And because of injuries and deaths from 'inadequate' railings and posts over the last few years, building codes have become more strict about making sure that the railings and posts and the support structure of the railings and posts can support the forces/loads placed on them. Picture a big guy, let's say 300 lbs. Loses his balance for some reason. Slams into the 4 ft tall post. The post HAS to withstand that load to keep the person from falling off or over the wall/deck/step/whatever.

Current Codes require any railing system to be able to support a 200 lb horizontal load applied at any point and 50 lb/foot across the entire railing structure. 200 lbs on a 3 or 4 ft post (lever) is 600-800 ft-lbs of torque trying to tip/rip that post out of the anchor location and structure.

Replace either that entire step tread, or maybe half the tread (lengthwise). Because I see what looks like mortar joint in the riser for the next step above it. Although it would be best to replace the entire tread IMNSHO, to keep the look and function of the treads all consistent.

As to the weight of the existing tread, that doesn't matter too much anymore. Because you have to remove it, you can drill holes in it and then break it apart into smaller (and thus lighter ) chunks.
The more I consider this (while I've typed this up, so maybe five minutes or so of more pondering ), replace the entire tread. For the looks and the function. Yeah, it ***** to have to do that. But that is the RIGHT way to fix the broken corner of the tread which has to anchor a railing support post. IMNSHO

 

[MoonRise]

Oh, and the broken little pieces are called "shards".

"chard" is a leafy vegetable.

 

[shinnen]

Hi again,
rlitman - I hadn't thought of it that way.
Billk - I was intending to drill down into the concrete step, below the cap. There's a plate on the bottom of the handrail post. Are you suggesting a pipe through the plate into the concrete?
Moonrise - You and rlitman make good points. Perhaps I should replace the entire cap. To be honest though; I'm not sure the structure, as intended, would withstand the kind of punishment (torque) you describe. The post is 41" high.
OK shards ....... Wow ... so fussy ; -)
Thanks again for your help and advice. it looks like I'll have to take the expensive route.
..... john

 

[shinnen]

Hi again,
So, is there a way that I can minimize the cost of replacing the cap. I know where I can get an identical replacement. The company that installed the railings said that they would finish the installation when I'm ready; but I don't trust them not to break it again. In fact, the reason I've entertained the whole repair senario, is that I generally have doubts about the quality of craftsmen these days. They seem to send people who either have no clue about what they're doing (trainees), or don't give a ****. Well, that's my rant. It's not your problem.
Thanks again,
... john

 

[BillK]

Billk - I was intending to drill down into the concrete step, below the cap. There's a plate on the bottom of the handrail post. Are you suggesting a pipe through the plate into the concrete

Pretty much. I would probably done the railing differently. Without seeing it I would say do away with the plate and run the railing upright part all the way down into the solid concrete. Is it your typical wrought iron railing ?

The type of stone that the caps are made of simply will not withstand drilling through it the way you were doing. We use it around here for patios and it cracks if you look at it wrong.

 

[shinnen]

Hi Bill,
No, it's aluminum. The wrought iron railings that we removed were completely rusted though in a couple of places. The house was built in 1967. (Talk about hazard. That was it.).
Yes, that's what I'm afraid of ... replacing the cap and having another drilling issue break it.
See pictures.
....... john

 

[BillK]

Hi Bill,
No, it's aluminum. The wrought iron railings that we removed were completely rusted though in a couple of places. The house was built in 1967. (Talk about hazard. That was it.).
Yes, that's what I'm afraid of ... replacing the cap and having another drilling issue break it.
See pictures.
....... john

Yup. That is exactly what will happen. I have a friend who does railings. Ill see if I can get in touch with him tommorrow and see what he suggests. My thought was to sink a 2" pipe all the way down into the concrete with a plate on the top that matches the plate on the railing. Make the hole in the step bigger than the pipe so the pipe can move a little without hitting the step material. You can bolt the railing to the plate on the pipe. The covering piece on the railing will cover it all. I'll do a drawing in the morning.

 

[Glemon]

Trying to think outside the box here, seems like there are two issues you are trying to address. Strength of the railing, and appearance of the steps. If you could repair the step to make it strong and the right shape, concrete? then "wrap" all the steps in something, thin composite deck board, tile, don't know, more work but maybe less money and more desirable results for looks and strength.

 

[shinnen]

Hi Bill - Thanks I appreciate that.
Hi Glemon - I'm thinking that if the colour on the fixed step doesn't match the others, I will paint all three step with garage floor paint.
.... john

 

[rlitman]

Hi again,
rlitman - I hadn't thought of it that way.
Billk - I was intending to drill down into the concrete step, below the cap. There's a plate on the bottom of the handrail post. Are you suggesting a pipe through the plate into the concrete?
Moonrise - You and rlitman make good points. Perhaps I should replace the entire cap. To be honest though; I'm not sure the structure, as intended, would withstand the kind of punishment (torque) you describe. The post is 41" high.
OK shards ....... Wow ... so fussy ; -)
Thanks again for your help and advice. it looks like I'll have to take the expensive route.
..... john

I wouldn't count it as a 41" lever. More like 36". How high is the handrail (code puts it between 34" and 38")?

As for drilling, that's the installers error. My guess is he was using a high powered SDS rotary hammer. You can drill for anchors with a diamond bit and water, and while it's slow going, it will not damage the stone.

Your pictures show that the "iron" railing was cemented into a large hole that fit the newel, but the aluminum has a flange with four anchor screws. The smaller holes and large base also spread the forces to the stone out better.

Hi Bill,
No, it's aluminum. The wrought iron railings that we removed were completely rusted though in a couple of places. The house was built in 1967. (Talk about hazard. That was it.).
Yes, that's what I'm afraid of ... replacing the cap and having another drilling issue break it.
See pictures.
....... john

I've seen a lot of old tubular railings rot out like that. The newel should have been made with solid bar.

 

[shinnen]

Hi rlitman,
It's 41" from the cap to the top of the post. It's 38" to the middle of the railing. (The railing is 2" thick.)
So, you're saying that the black limestone can be drilled, if it's done properly. O.K.
A friend of mine, who's a retired handyman, ehoed what you say, that if the installer had done it properly everything would have been fine. So, I should question anyone who's going to drill this, to make sure they know how to drill it properly.
Right, well the iron railing posts is another issue. How much time do you have ; - )?
When the step caps (black limestone) where installed, about 20 years ago, the installer gouged a large hole in the caps and embedded the posts in it, secured with, I'm not sure what. It looked like ****, but it was a friend of a friend who did it, so ....... It's been a comedy of errors. The railings themselves were badly rusted after 54 years, so they had to be replaced.
..... john

 

[yeldogt]

The way the original railing was done is the best correct way to do it -- single hole in the stone ... the railing goes down into the foundation.

What did they use to drill the holes ... bluestone is hard vs limestone and you have to be careful drilling. Expansion lugs can crack it --

 

[BillK]

Ok,
This is what I would do only because of your "soft" stone steps. I would make something like in my drawing with the top plate matching your railing plate. Bore a hole in the soft step cap maybe 1/2" larger than the pipe. Go all the way down to your solid concrete support. If you make the hole in the cap bigger than the pipe it will not put any stress on the cap and cause it to break again.

Just a thought

 

[shinnen]

Hi yeldogt - I have no idea what they used; i wasn't there; nor was i savvy enough to ask after the fact.
Hi Bill - I'm not sure I'm getting the picture here. Are you suggesting welding a plate to a pipe, then running the pipe through the limestone and into the concrete, then running bolts through the two plates into the concrete OR sandwiching the limestone cap between a plate attached to a pipe that goes into the concrete step, then running bolts through both plates into the concrete? Or neither?
Would this be a repair of the existing cap, or for installing a new cap?
Thanks,
... john

 

[BillK]

Hi yeldogt - I have no idea what they used; i wasn't there; nor was i savvy enough to ask after the fact.
Hi Bill - I'm not sure I'm getting the picture here. Are you suggesting welding a plate to a pipe, then running the pipe through the limestone and into the concrete, then running bolts through the two plates into the concrete OR sandwiching the limestone cap between a plate attached to a pipe that goes into the concrete step, then running bolts through both plates into the concrete? Or neither?
Would this be a repair of the existing cap, or for installing a new cap?
Thanks,
... john

No. I would only bolt the plate to the plate on your railing. I would simply let the long pipe going into the concrete support the railing. I would make the hole in the "cap" a little larger than the pipe so it would allow a little movement. I am not there looking at it but I simply do not think you will be able to get away with drilling those smaller holes through that type of stone and not having it crack apart again.

 

[shinnen]

Hi Bill,
OK. I'm beginning to get the picture here. The limestone cap would now be completely cosmetic, on this side of the step; and the pipe would provide support for the railing post.
To do this I would drill a 1" diameter hole in the railing plate (since my pipe is 1" in diameter); then, after drilling a similar plate with a one inch hole, and bolt holes, I would run the pipe and bolts through the cap and into the concrete below. Right?
The only problem I can imagine is that the 1" pipe inside the railing post (which is 23/4" square) would be somewhat floppy, unless I attach/weld the plate to the pipe or in some manner prevent the pipe from moving inside the post by pouring concrete in, or stabilising it in some other way. If I did that the second plate would be redundant?
...... john

 

[Zeke]

I'm not going to comment on the structural aspect of this although there seems to be a solution or 2 here that will work.

I will comment on painting the stone. That will be a nightmare. Once painted, you will be repainting often. From my POV you have a couple of choices WRT to the step itself: complete replacement (and have the fabricators pre dill the holes for you) or epoxy it back together and forge ahead. I work with composites and I know I could create a mix that would minimize the overall impact of the repair cosmetically. However, if you were to hire me, my materials and labor would get close to the cost of replacement. This is usually reserved for something that is not accessible for replacement.

 

[shinnen]

Hi Zeke,
Thanks for you observations. I thought that garage floor paints were very durable and last for years?
........ john

 

[BillK]

Hi Bill,
OK. I'm beginning to get the picture here. The limestone cap would now be completely cosmetic, on this side of the step; and the pipe would provide support for the railing post.
To do this I would drill a 1" diameter hole in the railing plate (since my pipe is 1" in diameter); then, after drilling a similar plate with a one inch hole, and bolt holes, I would run the pipe and bolts through the cap and into the concrete below. Right?
The only problem I can imagine is that the 1" pipe inside the railing post (which is 23/4" square) would be somewhat floppy, unless I attach/weld the plate to the pipe or in some manner prevent the pipe from moving inside the post by pouring concrete in, or stabilising it in some other way. If I did that the second plate would be redundant?
...... john

I was not thinking of running the pipe up into the railing post. I was just thinking make it like my drawing and bolt it to the plate on the railing. And the pipe doesnt have to be 1" It can be whatever you want. I would probably epoxy it down into the concrete below the cap.

 

[rlitman]

Hi Zeke,
Thanks for you observations. I thought that garage floor paints were very durable and last for years?
........ john

Indoors, yes. Outdoors, no.

 

[shinnen]

Hi Zeke,
Ahhh, OK, I didn’t realize that.
.... john

 

[shinnen]

Hi Bill,
Right, OK. Thanks.
... john

 

[shinnen]

Gentlemen,
Thank you for your help and patience. I have one more question, before I decide what course to take.
If I go the route of replacing the entire cap, is there a way of drilling the anchor holes that will 'probably' NOT result in cracking it again? If so, I will query the installer as to what method he intends to use, before going ahead with the installation.
.... john

 

[rlitman]

Gentlemen,
Thank you for your help and patience. I have one more question, before I decide what course to take.
If I go the route of replacing the entire cap, is there a way of drilling the anchor holes that will 'probably' NOT result in cracking it again? If so, I will query the installer as to what method he intends to use, before going ahead with the installation.
.... john

Yes. The more hammering power, the more you break. A regular cordless drill set on "hammer" mode should be safe with a carbide bit, as they make more noise than they hammer. A real rotary hammer SDS drill hits very hard and is risky. A diamond (or carbide grit) drill that rotates only is absolutely safe, but will take some time to get through the stone. However, do you even need to drill all the way through?

 

[Zeke]

Gentlemen,
Thank you for your help and patience. I have one more question, before I decide what course to take.
If I go the route of replacing the entire cap, is there a way of drilling the anchor holes that will 'probably' NOT result in cracking it again? If so, I will query the installer as to what method he intends to use, before going ahead with the installation.
.... john

You didn't read the part where I said to have the fabricators pre drill it before installation. You should be able to make a template with the handrail that was already made and something to support it where the pieces broke off. You could even make the holes oversized for final alignment and epoxy some all thread through the square plate. You can snug the nuts up in a few days. Trim the excess thread for the cover to sit right.

 

[MoonRise]

Yes. The more hammering power, the more you break. A regular cordless drill set on "hammer" mode should be safe with a carbide bit, as they make more noise than they hammer. A real rotary hammer SDS drill hits very hard and is risky. A diamond (or carbide grit) drill that rotates only is absolutely safe, but will take some time to get through the stone. However, do you even need to drill all the way through?

Yes, he probably DOES need to drill through the stone step material and anchor into the concrete 'structure' underneath the stone tread cap.

Whether using the pipe/bar and plate option (use stainless steel or all aluminum, especially for the base plate of the post because mild steel WILL rust pretty quickly when it's in contact with a piece of aluminum because of "galvanic corrosion"), or drilling four holes through the stone and down into the concrete underneath and putting in some stainless steel threaded rods anchored with epoxy into the concrete and then put stainless steel nuts on to hold the post base plate and then trimming the threaded rod for the post base cover to sit right.

Otherwise he probably will end up cracking the stone tread cap piece again, from either the installation of the anchor bolts or from the forces on the post when someone pushes (falls, trips, uses the railing as a piece of gymnastics equipment, bump a heavy object into it as said object is being moved into or out of the house and tips or bumps into the railing, etc).

And I agree that an SDS tool would probably crack the stone because of the hammering action. Use only a rotary bit, like a diamond or carbide core bit (think hole saw instead of a twist or spade drill bit). Slower than hammering away, but way less chance of cracking the stone. A 'factory' or shop might use a water jet cutter but probably not sharks with freakin lasers on their heads.

And a btw, my front steps handrail posts also rusted out pretty similar to the OP's picture in Post #17. Because they were thin walled hollow square tube similar to what he showed. Rusted out in maybe 20 years or so.

I removed the entire railing (both sides), cut off the hollow posts (or what was left of them) and replaced all of the posts with solid steel square bars and welded everything back together. The handrail and balusters were still OK, as they were all solid steel and not thin walled hollow pieces. I made the 'tail' end of the posts long and anchored them into the (cleaned out and slightly enlarged) existing anchor holes in the concrete and brick and used quick-setting anchoring mortar/grout to hold everything in place. The posts and railing are now 'solid', both physically and structurally.

 

[rlitman]

Yes, he probably DOES need to drill through the stone step material and anchor into the concrete 'structure' underneath the stone tread cap...

The fence manufacturer should have engineering documents on this, but let's think it through.

By using such a large base plate, they can get away with using smaller fasteners. Let's pretend the only forces are towards the side away from the steps, and that's a 6" base plate with the screws on the inner side being 5.5" from the outer (pivoting) edge of the plate. A 1/4" tapcon is rated for 750lbs pull-out strength with 1" embedment in 2000psi concrete (bluestone is more like 12ksi). With a 41" tall post, it would take 201lbs of horizontal force at the top of the post to pull out these two fasteners, and that's assuming the outer two fasteners make no contribution.

So, once again, do we need to drill this through? Anyway, don't take this as an endorsement for Tapcons. They just suited a hypothetical thought experiment well.

 

[shinnen]

Zeke - Yes, I did read that you suggested the fabricater drill it. Sorry, I forget to tell you that I had asked them when they quoted the price, if they would cut or drill it, and they said NO.
Thanks for the other suggestions.
Moonrise - Thanks for the drilling advice, etc. I will try to make sure that they know what they're doing, if and when I go that route.
rlitman - Thanks again for your thoughts.
At this point I'm going to epoxy the broken pieces together and re-drill the holes; drill 4 holes into the concrete and install the post using Parasleeves (see photo), or something similar. I'm thinking that I can put some sort of cushion between the cap and the post base, so that I can tighten everything down without breaking the cap (again).
If that doesn't work, well then, I'm going to have to hire an installer.

.... john

 

[MoonRise]

Hypothetical thought experiment time, cool:

The two 1/4" Tapcons into 200 psi concrete would theoretically be able to withstand a 210 lb horizontal load on the post top and not fail. (I'll trust your numbers and math. )

But that completely ignores the REQUIRED "Safety Factor" that Tapcon specifies. Tapcon says that the minimum required Safety Factor is 4 (maximum allowable load of less than 25% of the listed ultimate load).

https://www.tapcon.com/data-sheets/charts_performancetables_bluewhitestainless_v0-(1).pdf/

So the maximum allowable safe working load would then be 50 lbs, but the post must be able to withstand a 200 lb concentrated load. Thus the installation would not meet 'Code' or the fastener manufacturer's design specifications.

And bending loads on any fastener are Bad from a design and strength standpoint.

And the OP's stone step already showed that the stone can crack pretty badly. Whether due to ham-handed installation monkeys when they attempted to drill through the stone or natural 'cracks' or inclusions in the stone originally or both, the stone tread still completely cracked and failed.

I'm in the do it once and overbuild it (at least somewhat ) camp. As opposed to underbuilding and then having to go back and fix the failed installation and reinstall everything yet again.