Flagstone patio

[Loose Nut Buster]

I live in an all sand loam... my ? is
I'm thinking of using cement, sand, pea pebble & a latex additive as a 2" grout fill between the flags.
Your thoughts please!

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[glentre]

I've seen many older flagstone installations where the stones were spaced apart and the spaces filled with cement. Problem is, there is some movement over time and unsightly cracks open between the cement filler and the stones which weeds just love. Plus, the cement filler breaks with cracks opening perpendicular to the stones, especially in areas with cold winters. If I were installing flagstone squares or rectangles, I would **** them together and use a non-organic polymeric sand in the narrow cracks between them. With irregular shaped stones, setting them further apart and planting grass between them would be my solution. IMO, using cement between the stones would be my least desirable choice.

Glen

 

[ODIS]

I installed this patio about 6 or 7 years ago. Seems like the work was completed more recently however.

Flagstones are Bitter Root “Select” (larger pieces). Bedded in 1/4 minus gravel. Lots of work but in the end, a nice project.

There is a material that is available that acts like a binder and is pretty stable. You can find it at your local masonry suppler.

Around page 11 on my thread the installation is discussed.

Wife planted red thyme and the moss is all volunteer.

 

[Fatboy148]

I agree with Glentre, with frost coming and going in MI, the stones will move and the cement will fail in time. My question for you is, what's you site like as far as sun exposure? The surface of the stones are usually pretty smooth and without direct sun, your stones may get slimy and slippery when wet.

 

[Mwaters]

I did a flagstone patio back in 2014. It is about 19x16. The pictures were taken this year so it has held up really well. The stones are 2" thick. We first dug down 9" across the whole area. Then filled with 5" of 5/8" minus crushed rock and plate compacted that. Followed that with 2" of builder sand, then the stones. Took a couple of weeks out in the 90 degree days of that summer.

The material I used between the stones is called Mexican Beach Pebble and I got it through a local rock/landscape place here. It's very colorful. To keep it in place between the stones so that it wouldn't get kicked about, I used a product called Klingstone. This is a honey or syrup-like goo(it comes in clear or amber color) that you dribble over the pebble (or sand, as it's used on golf course sand traps according to their website). You let it dry for about 12 hours and it hardens around the material like super glue. But, the BIG advantage of it is that the pebble in my case, remains permeable. Meaning that any water from rain or whatever, drains down through it. I never get puddles out there unless it is a really big, sustained gulley washer, and even then, that water drains away in a little while.

Here is the link to their website where you can learn more about it > http://www.klingstonepaths.com/

 

[My Old Tools]

I just had several 1000 SF of flagstone done. The mason bedded everything in mortar a couple of inches thick. Stones were irregular but set fairly tight with mortar infill as needed. Steps were built the same way. The original stone work was set on dirt with mortar in the cracks and timber edging. It all had to be removed and redone after 15 years or so.

 

[dutchgray]

I just had several 1000 SF of flagstone done. The mason bedded everything in mortar a couple of inches thick. Stones were irregular but set fairly tight with mortar infill as needed. Steps were built the same way. The original stone work was set on dirt with mortar in the cracks and timber edging. It all had to be removed and redone after 15 years or so.

If you want a patio to really last do the above but on top of a 4" thick concrete slab.
Patios are one of those things that doing it right is really expensive compared to a cheap job and there is really no difference in the finished result when the job is done, its only later the differences show up.

 

[txvwnut]

I live on sandy loam as well and have a few flag stone walkways and a small patio. All were dug to depth to allow for a one inch sand bed after the dirt was packed. I used sand topping mix for my bed and grout. The patio and front walkway have narrower grout lines than the walk way in the back. The back walkway was done using what was left from the front work so I have some grout lines that are narrow and some that are probably four inches. The front has been done for about five years and the rear I just finished during the lock down for the pandemic. Here’s a couple of pics of my walkways, the one that looks wet is the back walkway with the wider grout spacing the other is the front.

 

[rayra]

polymeric sand works well, but then again so does bermuda / crabgrass. No sure about that much gap with the polymeric.
And as stated above the conrete / mortar thing never really pans out, long term.

Also suggesting decomposed granite (DG), as both a bed and a filler. And where the flagstone peters out the DG can be used for a path.

 

[My Old Tools]

It's a regional thing. Our ground never freezes. With near year around growing season, anything that allows a seed to take hold is a major problem, hence concrete.

 

[yeldogt]

it's all in the labor cost. Flag is not uniform in either size or thickness -- it's much less expensive vs lime or bluestone. The old school way was slab and bed in mortar -- grout the joints with cement. like a good stone mason with a wall -- it's an art to make it look good.

The mortar bed allowed for the various thickness and the grout protected from weather cycles. With the labor cost today I see them set in bedding material -- like pavers with modified bedding joints. Time will tell how they hold up.

we had tones of flag in the mid-atlantic. The slate yards had an endless supply of offware -- sold off cheap for patios

 

[acer66]

I installed this patio about 6 or 7 years ago. Seems like the work was completed more recently however.

Flagstones are Bitter Root “Select” (larger pieces). Bedded in 1/4 minus gravel. Lots of work but in the end, a nice project.

There is a material that is available that acts like a binder and is pretty stable. You can find it at your local masonry suppler.

Around page 11 on my thread the installation is discussed.

Wife planted red thyme and the moss is all volunteer.

That looks beautiful.

 

[ODIS]

^^^. Thank you!

 

[yelchevelle]

If you want a patio to really last do the above but on top of a 4" thick concrete slab.
Patios are one of those things that doing it right is really expensive compared to a cheap job and there is really no difference in the finished result when the job is done, its only later the differences show up.

I do hardscape for a living. I have seen patios Not installed this way that hold up okay, but if you want to do it right, mortared in over concrete. Professionally, I have lost jobs because I don’t want to risk my reputation on sub par work. There usually seems to be someone who will. I understand people have a budget to meet, but the few times I have ever tried to take a chance deviating from the tried and true method I have ended up redoing it. Because of this, I don’t take chances. If you are doing it yourself for yourself, cut any corner you want. It may work out, but if doesn’t, you can only blame yourself.

 

[yeldogt]

I do hardscape for a living. I have seen patios Not installed this way that hold up okay, but if you want to do it right, mortared in over concrete. Professionally, I have lost jobs because I don’t want to risk my reputation on sub par work. There usually seems to be someone who will. I understand people have a budget to meet, but the few times I have ever tried to take a chance deviating from the tried and true method I have ended up redoing it. Because of this, I don’t take chances. If you are doing it yourself for yourself, cut any corner you want. It may work out, but if doesn’t, you can only blame yourself.

I get called out for being picky and a perfectionist -- both true to a point. But -- as with your comment. I have learned by watching and looking at others mistakes ---some of my own making as well. I find it much better to say ... "I would like to do "X" .. but that is not in my budget". What can I do correctly in my cost structure and how can I make that look nice. Long term this works out better vs having problems in 8 years trying for a look on the cheap.

 

[dutchgray]

I do hardscape for a living. I have seen patios Not installed this way that hold up okay, but if you want to do it right, mortared in over concrete. Professionally, I have lost jobs because I don’t want to risk my reputation on sub par work. There usually seems to be someone who will. I understand people have a budget to meet, but the few times I have ever tried to take a chance deviating from the tried and true method I have ended up redoing it. Because of this, I don’t take chances. If you are doing it yourself for yourself, cut any corner you want. It may work out, but if doesn’t, you can only blame yourself.

We did one about 5 years ago that was £300k just to buy the flagstones, the best part was about half the area we had already done a couple years before when they decided they wanted to change the stone, so that got ripped out.
We don't work for people that don't want it done right, they can find someone else, there are plenty out there who will do a patio cheaper than we do.