Flaretite .... flare sealer

[yeldogt]

Just saw this in my new issue of contractor -- looks like the ticket for flares. Although -- they should ditch the system in Mini Splits.

It should work like a car w/ o ring and clip -- or screw on with O rings.

With the technology available in manufacturing and the almost universal install for single zone -- pre-charged lines or hoses should be available w/ evacuated head units.

The industry will fight it as it will eliminate work -- but environmentally ...it's a lot better.

Think how fast and easy you could install one if it was a hose set-up. I have cars 20 year old .. never touched (Japanese naturally) ..... don't let the germans design the fittings!

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Jeeze. Another overpriced snake oil product for people who can't form decent flares. There's been an answer for that on the market for decades.

http://www.jbind.com/products/product-search-detail.aspx?SKU=B2-6

Tommy

 

[PoorOwner]

I have some.. I wanted to fix the some questionable sloppy flare done by the installer. When I am climbing up to 18 feet, no helper and re-flaring may not be the easiest.
I don't know which one is leaking, I do plan to loosen all 4 flares, insert, tighten. They last the life of the system.

Sometimes, the brass male flare surface get scratched (don't ask how or why), this comes in handy for that too.

 

[MattT]

It should work like a car w/ o ring and clip -- or screw on with O rings.

With the technology available in manufacturing and the almost universal install for single zone -- pre-charged lines or hoses should be available w/ evacuated head units.

It's not as simple as you think it is. You can't use basic "o ring and clip" fittings for "pre charged" linesets. The fittings have to be a zero loss type and they ain't cheap. The ones they use on Mr Cool DIYs look to be about a $200 upcharge compared to equivalent flared equipment. Add fittings to the other end of the lineset, and made to order custom lengths, and you're probably looking at north of $500.

Jeeze. Another overpriced snake oil product for people who can't form decent flares.

 

[jjrbus]

Just what us DIY hacks need! Same principal as crush washers for fuel systems and oil pans.

I am heading towards 2 years with no flare leaks, more luck than skill.

 

[yeldogt]

It's not as simple as you think it is. You can't use basic "o ring and clip" fittings for "pre charged" linesets. The fittings have to be a zero loss type and they ain't cheap. The ones they use on Mr Cool DIYs look to be about a $200 upcharge compared to equivalent flared equipment. Add fittings to the other end of the lineset, and made to order custom lengths, and you're probably looking at north of $500.

mixed two things together...

1. Don't see why there are not other connectors in the industry -- Also, with hoses lasting 20+ years in autos (not a nice environment) .. using them for mini-splits would lats longer then the unit.

2. Designing and manufacturing at scale is not going to add $500 to the product. They sell the condensers for less than that all over the world .. and they are filled.

Trust me ..... they don't cost 4k in Africa

 

[yeldogt]

Jeeze. Another overpriced snake oil product for people who can't form decent flares. There's been an answer for that on the market for decades.

http://www.jbind.com/products/product-search-detail.aspx?SKU=B2-6

Tommy

That's different ..... you seem to not like advancements.

My guess is the first flare fitting leaked ... both the flare and the shrader valve should be eliminated from the HVAC industry

 

[LS6 Tommy]

That's different ..... you seem to not like advancements.

My guess is the first flare fitting leaked ... both the flare and the shrader valve should be eliminated from the HVAC industry

I'm fine with advancements. That thing is a quick fix for hack techs.

BTW, the industry used "hoses" for quite a long time. They all eventually leaked and replacement sucked. Auto HVAC runs at much lower pressures than stationary HVAC.

Tommy

 

[MattT]

mixed two things together...

Yes you did. But it looked like you were mostly talking about mini splits

1. Don't see why there are not other connectors in the industry -

Because flares & brazed joints are cheap and easily customizable on site. Also about as close to 100% reliable as you're gonna get.

Switching to anything else will almost certainly increase component costs and reduce reliabilty. And be difficult, or impossible, to field customize. Sure it'd reduce the installation labor time & skill somewhat but probably not as much as you think. Flaring the lineset really isn't that large a time component of a mini split install. And would you really want someone too stupid to use a flaring tool installing one?

And FWIW I'm industrial not a HVAC guy defending the status quo. Seen a lot of leaks over the past 30some years and they were rarely metal on metal joints. Other than morons tightening JIC hydraulic fittings 'til they crack

Also, with hoses lasting 20+ years in autos (not a nice environment) .. using them for mini-splits would lats longer then the unit.

Biggest problem I see with hoses for HVAC applications is making them sufficiently UV resistant. That's what kills hoses outdoors IME. Other than that yes it's probably possible but may cost more per foot than copper.

2. Designing and manufacturing at scale is not going to add $500 to the product. They sell the condensers for less than that all over the world .. and they are filled.

Trust me ..... they don't cost 4k in Africa

No it won't add $500 to the factory gate price but could easily add that much to US retail. The Mr Cool option seems to add a couple hundred and that only has couplers at the condenser and one SKU per size. To be viable you'd need to add couplers at the evaporater and/or offer multiple lineset lengths. Multiply that up to US retail and it could easily cost more than paying a tech to flare & commission a system.

And I'm sure you know why they don't cost 4K in Africa. Same reason a decent meal doesn't cost $50 USD there.

 

[dcg9381]

I've done 3 installs. One leaked - I was in a hurry and didn't pressure test for full 24 hours.
These seals are expensive - but I'm going to try them versus buying the tools to cut and re-flare the lines. Hack? Maybe. Any new install I do, I'm going to use them.

 

[yeldogt]

I'm fine with advancements. That thing is a quick fix for hack techs.

BTW, the industry used "hoses" for quite a long time. They all eventually leaked and replacement sucked. Auto HVAC runs at much lower pressures than stationary HVAC.

Tommy

Flare fitting have always been a problem ... I just don't see how an improvement .. is anything of a hack.

leaking is a huge issue .... I guess there is ..are. and will be many hacks..

I don't remember hoses in the USA ..the are used in-other parts of the world

 

[yeldogt]

Yes you did. But it looked like you were mostly talking about mini splits



Because flares & brazed joints are cheap and easily customizable on site. Also about as close to 100% reliable as you're gonna get.

Switching to anything else will almost certainly increase component costs and reduce reliabilty. And be difficult, or impossible, to field customize. Sure it'd reduce the installation labor time & skill somewhat but probably not as much as you think. Flaring the line-set really isn't that large a time component of a mini split install. And would you really want someone too stupid to use a flaring tool installing one?

And FWIW I'm industrial not a HVAC guy defending the status quo. Seen a lot of leaks over the past 30some years and they were rarely metal on metal joints. Other than morons tightening JIC hydraulic fittings 'til they crack



Biggest problem I see with hoses for HVAC applications is making them sufficiently UV resistant. That's what kills hoses outdoors IME. Other than that yes it's probably possible but may cost more per foot than copper.



No it won't add $500 to the factory gate price but could easily add that much to US retail. The Mr Cool option seems to add a couple hundred and that only has couplers at the condenser and one SKU per size. To be viable you'd need to add couplers at the evaporater and/or offer multiple lineset lengths. Multiply that up to US retail and it could easily cost more than paying a tech to flare & commission a system.

And I'm sure you know why they don't cost 4K in Africa. Same reason a decent meal doesn't cost $50 USD there.

I was talking about mini. my point was really that other connectors are available vs using a flare .... clearly with the amount of leaking ... flares are a problem.

With environmental issues -- leaking is not good .. find something better.

The next advancement should be the ability to buy set lengths of evacuated line ... that would make it fool proof.

 

[Jim greengo]

I'm fine with advancements. That thing is a quick fix for hack techs.

BTW, the industry used "hoses" for quite a long time. They all eventually leaked and replacement sucked. Auto HVAC runs at much lower pressures than stationary HVAC.

Tommy

 

[bobbyjean]

Refrigeration Technologies RT201B Nylog Gasket/Thread Sealant -this works very well

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Flare fitting have always been a problem ... I just don't see how an improvement .. is anything of a hack.

leaking is a huge issue .... I guess there is ..are. and will be many hacks..

I don't remember hoses in the USA ..the are used in-other parts of the world

Flares not being made correctly is the problem, not the fittings themselves. They either leak right away, or pretty much never, unless they're disturbed.

Aeroquip made hose type HVAC linesets for years. They all became porus nad leaked.

There are newer tech "hose" style assemblies on the market. They meay aend up being excellent. time will tell.

First, there are precharged flex linesets available:

http://www.excelairsystems.com/flexible-lineset

Supposed to be for "DIY" guys.

I know of two or three techs that have had to replace theses with copper because they leaked at the mechanical fittings.

Parker has these:

https://www.parker.com/literature/A...tion Division/Catalogs/PDF fies/Catalog J.pdf

Supposed to be pretty good, but I don't know anyone in the industry that uses them.

Tommy

 

[yeldogt]

Flares not being made correctly is the problem, not the fittings themselves. They either leak right away, or pretty much never, unless they're disturbed.

Aeroquip made hose type HVAC linesets for years. They all became porus nad leaked.

There are newer tech "hose" style assemblies on the market. They meay aend up being excellent. time will tell.

First, there are precharged flex linesets available:

http://www.excelairsystems.com/flexible-lineset

Supposed to be for "DIY" guys.

I know of two or three techs that have had to replace theses with copper because they leaked at the mechanical fittings.

Parker has these:

https://www.parker.com/literature/A...tion Division/Catalogs/PDF fies/Catalog J.pdf

Supposed to be pretty good, but I don't know anyone in the industry that uses them.

Tommy

There are many products that "work well" when done correctly .... but let's be realistic here .... where is the typical failure point ?

The other "hose" type products are not in widespread use (in the USA) ... this is one of those items that's going to be driven by outside forces. The ROW can't play the games we do here and have already moved to easier installs. Mini development is all outside the USA ... all the top technology with smaller systems is outside the USA.