Flat Rate Mechanics

[mrholeshot]

You guys need a union, I'm not a mechanic but get paid the equivalent of "flat rate or better", we call it "block time" instead of "flat rate" though. So if I am scheduled to work 1:30 and do it in 1:00, I get 1:30 pay. If I do it in 2:30, I get paid 2:30.

I can see how working flat rate would encourage cutting corners, hurried jobs, possibly lead to injuries, etc. Not a safe operating environment.

Flat rate you get paid what the job calls for. If it calls for 3.0 hours you get paid 3.0 hours no matter if it takes you 10 minutes or 2 days. You better get it right the first time because thats the only time you get paid for the job. comebacks are on your own time. The last thing techs need is a union. They just all need to stay home for a week all accross America at one time

 

[jymmiejamz]

I find that in most case Mitchell time is pretty good. sometimes it off but it can go either way. Things that don't have a labor guide time are old enough to know what it takes. In the case of a guy who brings in his XKE V12 Jag you just keep him ******* in the back room of the shop until his family can pay the ransom

I work at a Land Rover dealership, they hardly have any labour times in the book for things that actually need to be replaced/rebuilt on the newer models. pretty much anything after '05 in inaccurate/nonexistent.

 

[pipsters]

Flat rate you get paid what the job calls for. If it calls for 3.0 hours you get paid 3.0 hours no matter if it takes you 10 minutes or 2 days. You better get it right the first time because thats the only time you get paid for the job. comebacks are on your own time. The last thing techs need is a union. They just all need to stay home for a week all accross America at one time

Right I understand what the term is. My point is you should be getting "flat rate or better", ie if the job takes 4 hours you should get paid the 4 hours. It's not your fault if something breaks or bolts are rusty causing you to take a longer time, you should be compensated for it.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

Are there any other flat rate car/deisel/motorcycle/watercraft mechanics here on the forum who are also trying to scratch out a living in this tough economy?
Just curious.

ME ...we lost our chevy franchise yesterday ..the boss got his letter ..he went and got a cheapo import brand to sell , so the ended any hope that GM would change their mind
too bad , we were doing pretty good since january , lots of customer pay coming in
I got hurt in august with a ruptured achilles tendon , so , I have been on disability since then

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

Right I understand what the term is. My point is you should be getting "flat rate or better", ie if the job takes 4 hours you should get paid the 4 hours. It's not your fault if something breaks or bolts are rusty causing you to take a longer time, you should be compensated for it.

oh yeah , good flat rate should be 4 hours for a 2 hour job , get it ?

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

how u get in

I went from the dealer to a govt school bus fleet ...low pay - union backstabbing - free benefits
still sucked 10 times worse than any dealer

went back to the dealer and don't regret it

 

[Chadro]

any other guys in diesel on here?

Theres a good number on here but what kind of Diesel techs are you looking for? Heavy Truck, Light/Medium Duty, Heavy Equipment Etc. etc. Theres a few of each.

 

[Jeeper]

question for all you that started your own shops. Do you usally specialize in a make or serveral makes? Seems to me that given the complexity of today's cars and the speciallized tools that you'd need to pick a brand or two to focus on.

 

[I can fix anything]

Read here
<<<<<<
<<<<<<

question for all you that started your own shops. Do you usally specialize in a make or serveral makes? Seems to me that given the complexity of today's cars and the speciallized tools that you'd need to pick a brand or two to focus on.

 

[Skin]

Right I understand what the term is. My point is you should be getting "flat rate or better", ie if the job takes 4 hours you should get paid the 4 hours. It's not your fault if something breaks or bolts are rusty causing you to take a longer time, you should be compensated for it.

hence why being a flat rate tech blows. In the "rust belt" flat rate is essentially a huge joke. Dont get me wrong, some things are okay, but pretty much anything related to body/exhaust/suspension work on older vehicles, you could be in for a very rough ride. Corners will be cut. ***** for the customers too because they get a half assed job. I've seen welds missing, pipes poorly aligned etc.. because people who were doing the job were too bussy rushing trying to beat the clock.

 

[MrMark]

flat rate also has a derogatory meaning, i.e., doing a ****** job. For example, "Bobby, this car is causing me big time problems, so I just flat rated it."

 

[mrholeshot]

Right I understand what the term is. My point is you should be getting "flat rate or better", ie if the job takes 4 hours you should get paid the 4 hours. It's not your fault if something breaks or bolts are rusty causing you to take a longer time, you should be compensated for it.

In most cases if a bolt breaks coming off, excess rust and things of that sort we add in time for that. But just because you are slow doesn't mean you should get paid the same as a guy busting his ***. Flat rate can work for you or against you depending on your commitment and investment in the tools to make the job go faster. You get a few 10 hour paychecks and you learn to pick up the pace. Once you learn the ropes you can turn 60+ in 40 hours. Slack up and your paycheck reflects it.

 

[Heavy Metal Doctor]

Right I understand what the term is. My point is you should be getting "flat rate or better", ie if the job takes 4 hours you should get paid the 4 hours. It's not your fault if something breaks or bolts are rusty causing you to take a longer time, you should be compensated for it.

I think a good guy making book-rate is fine if that's what he wants to do, the work is steady, etc. Beyond that, paying by the hour for the actual time worked is the better option. There's tons of mechanic out there working in hourly jobs who, in my opinion, would bankrupt the place they worked for if they got that "or better" part -- they would drag things out to make the hours / money they want with as little actual effort.....even with normal hourly pay as it is, I deal with these type all the time in local gov't shops....the guys who rebuild an entire major assembly to keep busy - or just to cover thier *** 'cause the can't identify the real problem - even after they call and are advised by us how to daignose / do the job right (God! I wish the owner would let me charge for phone consultation like a lawer!!).

 

[vssjim]

Back when I worked flat rate at a dealership I actually made more on the weekends in my driveway. I finally had enough and opened my own business. It grew quickly after the first year. I paid my techs flat rate but paid them better than any dealership. When yo made master technician you made 50% of the labor rate. Gravy work was passed out equal. You didn't get a brake job or A/C job or any other gravy until everybody got it. If you could do diaganostics and the tuff stuff you got that plus the gravy. If you didn't do anything but easy gravy work you had to wait until your turn came around. I wasn't starving out my Master Techs just because the rookie can only do brakes and water pumps and leave my top guns doing nothing but **** work. Having been a falt rate tech all my life made me very aware that the better you get the more **** they load you up with and some pimple face rookie is scooping every brake job that comes through the door. There is a lot of turnover in the auto business because of this. Most employers don't care as long as the bay has a tech in it and someone is doing the work. I've been in a dealship where we were sitting around playing cards praying some work would come in and the dealer would hire a new tech just to fill an empty bay. I bet 50% or more of the Techs in my area are now working from their homes. More than 1/2 of the dealerships have shut down and many of the independant garages have closed. People use to think because I owned my own shop that I had unlimited funds. I drew a smaller check than my main guys and most of my money went back into the business. I can't begin to tell you what a loss I took when I closed down my shop. Used shop equiptment has no resale value when so many places are shutting down at the same time. My advice to todays tech is to build a small shop at home, install a lift and carve out a decent living. Don't open it as a public business so you don't have to deal with all the political BS and work off referals.

Where is home Mr Holeshot, I was just wondering what parts of the country are worse and what parts are doing ok.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

You guys need a union, I'm not a mechanic but get paid the equivalent of "flat rate or better", we call it "block time" instead of "flat rate" though. So if I am scheduled to work 1:30 and do it in 1:00, I get 1:30 pay. If I do it in 2:30, I get paid 2:30.

I can see how working flat rate would encourage cutting corners, hurried jobs, possibly lead to injuries, etc. Not a safe operating environment.

In an ideal world that would be great. But it doesn't work like that when there's a customer paying for that work to be carried out. Say a car comes in for a cam belt, labour time is 4 hours. The customer's going to pay the 4 hours' labour. If the tech takes 5 hours to do the job is the customer going to pay the extra hour? Nope, then the dealership loses money by swallowing the cost to make up for that extra hour they're paying the tech.

question for all you that started your own shops. Do you usally specialize in a make or serveral makes? Seems to me that given the complexity of today's cars and the speciallized tools that you'd need to pick a brand or two to focus on.

Read here
<<<<<<
<<<<<<

Can you fix me a sandwich?

 

[mrholeshot]

Where is home Mr Holeshot, I was just wondering what parts of the country are worse and what parts are doing ok.

If you open a business open in a Military town, offer a Military discount and do really good work and treat people fair. Your business will thrive.

 

[rayzor32]

In most cases if a bolt breaks coming off, excess rust and things of that sort we add in time for that. But just because you are slow doesn't mean you should get paid the same as a guy busting his ***. Flat rate can work for you or against you depending on your commitment and investment in the tools to make the job go faster. You get a few 10 hour paychecks and you learn to pick up the pace. Once you learn the ropes you can turn 60+ in 40 hours. Slack up and your paycheck reflects it.

Thats only if the cars are there if there isnt any work doesnt matter how fast you are.

 

[Griff93]

In most cases if a bolt breaks coming off, excess rust and things of that sort we add in time for that. But just because you are slow doesn't mean you should get paid the same as a guy busting his ***. Flat rate can work for you or against you depending on your commitment and investment in the tools to make the job go faster. You get a few 10 hour paychecks and you learn to pick up the pace. Once you learn the ropes you can turn 60+ in 40 hours. Slack up and your paycheck reflects it.

This is provided you are getting paid correctly, hours are getting flagged correctly, your support is there (parts) ,and you have enough work. I've had 70+ hr weeks and I've had 10 hr weeks after the 70+ hr weeks. I left one of my previous dealership jobs after getting screwed out of 35 hrs on one ticket.

 

[Black89LX]

Theres a good number on here but what kind of Diesel techs are you looking for? Heavy Truck, Light/Medium Duty, Heavy Equipment Etc. etc. Theres a few of each.

well I posted a new thread as i had too many questions and it was off topic to this thread. could you check it out and give me some advice as well as anyone else that might be able to help

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79817

 

[vssjim]

If you open a business open in a Military town, offer a Military discount and do really good work and treat people fair. Your business will thrive.

I don't think that was what I was asking, I was more wondering what region/city you were talking about when you said alot of dealerships and independent shops went under.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

making 70-80% on the door rate , the house doesn't lose
in other words , I make you 7500 -you pay me 1200
and they get all the write offs

 

[Joelfke]

Only way to go turning wrenches is in a fleet shop (preferably unionized, and hourly NOT flat rate); a goverment fleet shop (most likely hourly anyway); or flat rate in a busy independent shop that is all CP work, and no manufacturer warranty work -- and preferably one that specializes in one or two makes - repetition breeds speed. Dealerships, in my opinion, are a good place for a young kid to get his feet wet while still living in the basement with Wayne and Garth. Stick it out for a couple or 3 years to get the feel of working flat rate; get as many ASE certs as you can; then roll that box onto a flatbed wrecker and move somewhere else.

I started my wrenching career a year and change ago and i feel exactly like this at my current dealership; I feel like I can get lots of experience in the dealer but its getting slower and slower there, and I would much rather be in a fleet shop and/or govt fleet

 

[turrican]

Currently working flat-rate, single-tech (no team) at a Nissan dealership. Previously, flat rate, team, at a Mazda dealer.

Definitely preferred a team environment - sure, there was inconsistency because certain teams got a bit fed, but it mostly evened out. Single-tech seems to be far more prone to sucking unless you're "in" with the boss/dispatcher

 

[turrican]

Tech will do a short test drive; mark it CND (could not duplicate) or NPF (no problem found) and go get back in line for a CP major service or brake job.

This is assuming those "better" jobs haven't been slipped under the tracking sheet, hidden for someone else higher up the pecking order

 

[Jeeper]

but its getting slower and slower there

Why are the dealers getting slower and slower? Is it cash for clunkers related? I thought people were keeping cars longer which means more service. People just deferring the cost of repairs?

 

[SS5150]

Oh yeah, it's nice when dispatch plays favorites isn't it? I can't recall getting a tune up handed to me since I've been at my current job, I started in early February....and I know they are coming in, my bay is next to the write up area.


I sell the heck out of oil leaks on Jeeps though. You'd think the Exxon Valdez crashed into my toolbox and spilled all over my floor...

 

[SS5150]

Selling oil leaks on Jeeps? That's like shooting fish in a barrel, isn't it?

Oh yeah, but with the longer powertrain warranties most of the guys I work with are too lazy to go after them. I'll do them and I'll stay busy even when the business slows down, plus it keeps me away from stupid stuff like squeaks and rattles and interior trim work, so it's kind of a win/win.

 

[Deafautotech]

when i started out to work in automotive shop, i had been worked as hourly which mean i get all **** or Sh!t works.... but that way i do learn the hard part that make me consider how can i do correct the works...

but when i had transferred from closed chrysler dealership to mercury Lincolin dealership in same owner name, had me to changed the pay from hourly to flat rate, i was serious considered about leave, but my good friend who was my service manager had begged me to not go because he said i am considered one of best tech of crossroads mercury lincoln, chrysler jeep dealership had ever.... so i decided to gave a shot to stay.. even other tech who was work there for 27 years and he told me to not worry about and just do my best... so i did, made better paychecks and had been busy until owner had no money to keep business open... so it was end in June 2009...

now i am working for largest ford mercury lincoln dealership in Indiana.... i has been work a lot as more than what my old job had me to do... it is good to have good service director and dispatcher as treat equal but sometime they want overwork on techs but i am work with 25 techs in service dept... so it is always want to have more works... but for me, sometime i was so badly back up because many techs just dont want to do then asked me if i want it, i said ok but will need be wait until i get other works done before i can do it... other time my service director want me to do specific jobs because he know i can do it quick and good job... other time my service director had to ask me to do that job because no one in shop want OR willing to do... so i did it but i told him i am keep clock in and out to get exact pay on that job if it take me longer than what flat rate book said because if it took me longer than what book said because i dont have correct tool to do engine repair like KIA or other brands... i did very good on CHrysler, dodge, and jeep because i had common tools to do everything as i can do...

my advise is just do it because it is better than no job.... also forget about beat the clock as just ignore the times and just do it. that how i did as i did got twice highest hours in my work when i did heavy line works... my work are two weeks timesheet not every week...

 

[mrholeshot]

I don't think that was what I was asking, I was more wondering what region/city you were talking about when you said alot of dealerships and independent shops went under.

Coastal South Carolina. We lost 12 of the 22 local dealers. I know of 11 independant garages that went under or closed (including mine, but mine closed due to health) and then there are those that opend and closed without much of a chance. Then as GM phazes out brands we loose those dealers as well. We have one local Chevy dealer that has been through 9 differant owners over 10 years. They can't keep techs because no work. We have had several major Tire store/Auto Repair chains close as well. Lot of Technicians in my area are finding differant lines of work or are working out of their homes. I pretty much specialized in Street High Performance but my biggest competition is in a hurting situation right now so I'm not sure if I would be hanging on right now if I was still open. I certainly didn't get rich in my shop. The cost of doing business is astronomical. The guy who complains about a 59.95 4 wheel alignment has no idea it cost me 60,000 dollars in equiptment to do that job. By the time you get stuff paid for it time for something new. When I sold off most of my stuff I didn't have enough to pay off what I owed so that had to come out of pocket. Damn near bankrupted me.

 

[CarCrafter]

This is assuming those "better" jobs haven't been slipped under the tracking sheet, hidden for someone else higher up the pecking order

That kind of takes place elsewhere too????

 

[jymmiejamz]

The guy who complains about a 59.95 4 wheel alignment has no idea it cost me 60,000 dollars in equiptment to do that job. By the time you get stuff paid for it time for something new. When I sold off most of my stuff I didn't have enough to pay off what I owed so that had to come out of pocket. Damn near bankrupted me.

That's all you charged for an alignment? We charge $199 for a four wheel alignment, although we have to put the cars into a "tight tolerance mode" with the diagnostic computer. An alignment pays 3 hours at our shop.

 

[mrholeshot]

That's all you charged for an alignment? We charge $199 for a four wheel alignment, although we have to put the cars into a "tight tolerance mode" with the diagnostic computer. An alignment pays 3 hours at our shop.

I had a top of the line hunter computerized alignment machine and the matching rack. I paid 60K for it. Firestone down the road charged 75 dollars for a lifetime alignment and other places charged 19.95-49.95 on old stringaliners. The thing about it was when I sold tires I sold alignments, getting the wheels off for the tires sold a lot of brake jobs, the alignment machine sold a lot of front end parts, CV axles and oil leaks while on the rack. I offered a free 27 point check up with any oil change. It's a case of one hand turns the other. I didn't make much off the alignment but the money was in the tires and related work it generated. My machine could guide someone who had never done an alignment through the process. It even told you what tools to use and could show you a video of how to do it.

 

[nato]

To you Ford tech's out there, are their book times pretty similar to Alldata? Only reason I ask is b/c about 4 years ago, I quit working at a Ford dealership to work at the indee garage I'm at currently. I never got to see book time for flat rate stuff. Are they about the same? Anyhow, I need to replace the dr. side rear wheel bearing in my Escape and know how stupid it's going to be to do so. I bought my own bearing, anticipating a saturday moring at my shop changing it but I though, eh what the hell, let's give the "good" local Ford dealership a call to see what they would want to charge for the labor only if I supplied the bearing.....
Alldata tells me 2 hrs. to do one side in the rear. Obviously, they have never done one before. I've had to spend nearly an hour heating up & skimming the outer races out of knuckles before that have pressed bearings. So, I called Donnell Ford....she quotes me at $290 LABOR ONLY!!!!! WTF??!?! The bearing, my cost, from our Napa was $30 and our shop charges $70/hr. Where are they pulling their numbers? Are they factoring in a possible rear alignment adjustment or what??! Maybe their bearing is $100, she said the parts dept. was closed to she could only give me the labor price.

It's funny how they can charge outrageos labor rates but can't seem to pay their tech's jack sh*t.
I'm soooo glad I left that environment.

 

[I can fix anything]

That's all you charged for an alignment? We charge $199 for a four wheel alignment, although we have to put the cars into a "tight tolerance mode" with the diagnostic computer. An alignment pays 3 hours at our shop.

you are joking right

 

[jymmiejamz]

you are joking right

Nope. You have to pay to play. If you are going to spend $50-100k on a car you better have the money to fix/maintain it. In our area we actually have one of the lowest labour rates of all the dealerships. Even the local Ford dealership charges more per hour than us. The majority of new LAnd Rovers have air suspension, so if you don't know what you're doing when you do the alignment the suspension will automatically level itself out which will change the alignment. We get a lot of cars in with chewed up tires that independent shops did alignments on. I'd say at least 20-30% of our work is fixing other shops ****-ups.

 

[Theloniousmonk]

Nope. You have to pay to play. If you are going to spend $50-100k on a car you better have the money to fix/maintain it. In our area we actually have one of the lowest labour rates of all the dealerships. Even the local Ford dealership charges more per hour than us. The majority of new LAnd Rovers have air suspension, so if you don't know what you're doing when you do the alignment the suspension will automatically level itself out which will change the alignment. We get a lot of cars in with chewed up tires that independent shops did alignments on. I'd say at least 20-30% of our work is fixing other shops ****-ups.

Wow... maybe I should stop turning away newer rovers... J/K, I let the other guys in town deal w/ them... too specialized for me for which i have limited experience w/ serie 1-2 discos and Rangies. I wouldn't mind taking apart an old 90 or so rangie and doing a diesel conversion though, I think them an awesome vehicle by any standard.

 

[Simplespeed]

Alignments are gravy work. At the Firestone im at a free alignment check pays .6, recheck and adjusting only front toe if needed pays .8, and adjusting anything other than front toe(rear toe, front caster/camber) pays 1.2. First time lifetime alignment pays 1.2.

Recently iv been getting oil change tickets and turning them into this if they have the lifetime alignment.

free courtesy check .1
oil change .3
rotation .4
plug patch nails .6 each(often find 2)
alignment recheck with more than front toe adj. 1.2

Thats 2.6 flag for basic work that goes fast on a car that came in only for an oil change with a coupon and is only paying $15 out the door. It gets tiresome though and im not learning much at all this way, and that the main reason i moved to this shop. But, it pays the bills.....kinda. Boss man sees that on most of my tickets, hes paying me more than the customer is paying him. He sent me home at noon today cause it got slow. Ill clock 33 hours this week, dont even wanna think about what ill flag.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

Nope. You have to pay to play. If you are going to spend $50-100k on a car you better have the money to fix/maintain it. In our area we actually have one of the lowest labour rates of all the dealerships. Even the local Ford dealership charges more per hour than us. The majority of new LAnd Rovers have air suspension, so if you don't know what you're doing when you do the alignment the suspension will automatically level itself out which will change the alignment. We get a lot of cars in with chewed up tires that independent shops did alignments on. I'd say at least 20-30% of our work is fixing other shops ****-ups.

The guy i work with thought he could change the gearbox sump/filter and fluid on an '07 RR Sport TDV6 in under and hour. Hah, that little "pipe" that goes into the filter f**ked him up, took him about 5 hours.

It's funny when they don't listen to me, screw a job up and then end up having to do it the (correct) way i originally said.

 

[wafrederick]

Sometimes the book is off,sometimes takes less than the labor is called for.Have done some short cuts instead going by the book.Did this with a 2001 Saturn Vue with the V6,replace the engine.Book says to unbolt the subframe with the engine and transmission bolted together..Did it by removing the exhaust manifolds including unbolting more and got it out.

 

[rayzor32]

Alignments are gravy work. At the Firestone im at a free alignment check pays .6, recheck and adjusting only front toe if needed pays .8, and adjusting anything other than front toe(rear toe, front caster/camber) pays 1.2. First time lifetime alignment pays 1.2.

Recently iv been getting oil change tickets and turning them into this if they have the lifetime alignment.

free courtesy check .1
oil change .3
rotation .4
plug patch nails .6 each(often find 2)
alignment recheck with more than front toe adj. 1.2

Thats 2.6 flag for basic work that goes fast on a car that came in only for an oil change with a coupon and is only paying $15 out the door. It gets tiresome though and im not learning much at all this way, and that the main reason i moved to this shop. But, it pays the bills.....kinda. Boss man sees that on most of my tickets, hes paying me more than the customer is paying him. He sent me home at noon today cause it got slow. Ill clock 33 hours this week, dont even wanna think about what ill flag.

Damn you want some turkey with that gravy my shop has some **** times

Alignment .8
Rear adjust/cambercaster 1.1

Tire patch .3

Tire rotate .2

LOF .4

30pt check .2

Front brakes .7

Rear brakes 1.0