Floor Coating Problem........

[robertwhite]

Brand new 2200 sq ft concrete slab, completely covered by roof and walls.

I needed a simple inexpensive product to prevent gas/oil from destroying my new shop floor.

Picked up (2) 5 gallon containers of Black Bull acrylic clear sealer from Lowes for $150 or so.

Came home, rolled on the coating, and let it set for 3 or 4 days. Coating is a fairly glossy clear coat and looked pretty decent.

Then........ storms with hail were coming, so I pulled my new F25o into the shop. It sat there unmoved and untouched for about 3 days. I then pulled it out of the shop. So basically, pulled the truck straight in, let it sit there for 3 days, and pulled it straight out. Truck was NOT driven before being pulled in so there is no way it was from hot tires.

Simple enough, right? Only problem is that when I just went down to the shop (still completely empty), I could see exactly where the 4 tires were sitting. To make matters worse is the fact that it appears to have either disintergrated the coating or etched the coating. I can see 4 perfect tread patterns and can easily feel the ridges in the coating.

I now obviously do NOT trust this Black Bull **** anymore and will be contacting them on Tues after the holiday.

While in a different Lowes, I saw a Quickrete brand of single stage epoxy sealer in Gray.... http://www.quikretecoatings.com/products/Color Coatings/1-Part-Epoxy-Garage-Floor-Sealer.html

It is priced around $25 a gallon and says it covers 300-500 sq ft. If I had this in my local Lowes I would probably have used it.

Has anyone ever used this product?

Can I put it over the crappy Black Bull coating or do I somehow have to get that coating off and with what?

I absolutely can not afford to use the products some vendors on this site make. I can not spend $1200-1500 on a floor coating.

Thoughts??

 

[tncatadjuster]

Brand new 2200 sq ft concrete slab

I absolutely can not afford to use the products some vendors on this site make. I can not spend $1200-1500 on a floor coating.

Thoughts??

You might, before this is over if you count labor.

Good Luck.

 

[Edger]

I have seen this many times and at first I could not figure it out, but I eventually found the answer. It was always due 90% to poor preparation of the floor. The softness of the acrylic can add to the problem. Concrete floors must be squeaky clean and porous before coating with anything. A new floor needs to be acid etched, shot blasted or diamond ground to open it up. Another cause was epoxy that was not sufficiently cured before being parked on. The low cost acrylic you used would not stand up to wear either. In 18 months it will be worn off in all the walk areas then you have to start again. If you continue to overcoat each 12 months the areas that do not wear will become thick and very slippery after three overcoats when wet. These are good coatings for the price, but they will not stand up to your environment.

 

[robertwhite]

I have seen this many times and at first I could not figure it out, but I eventually found the answer. It was always due 90% to poor preparation of the floor. The softness of the acrylic can add to the problem. Concrete floors must be squeaky clean and porous before coating with anything. A new floor needs to be acid etched, shot blasted or diamond ground to open it up. Another cause was epoxy that was not sufficiently cured before being parked on. The low cost acrylic you used would not stand up to wear either. In 18 months it will be worn off in all the walk areas then you have to start again. If you continue to overcoat each 12 months the areas that do not wear will become thick and very slippery after three overcoats when wet. These are good coatings for the price, but they will not stand up to your environment.

I'm sorry, but how can a brand new, semi cured floor not be "open"?

It was cleaned with soap and water, hosed off, stiff bristle broomed, hosed again, broomed twice more. Then allowed to set for 2 days to dry out. Broomed again, and sealed. Remember that this is in an enclosed setting, so no real dust/dirt got in/on it in the first place.

In any event, the company suggested using xyline (sp) to smooth out the tire tread marks.

I still am not sure if I even want to keep the floor the way it is.

Do you (or anyone else) have any idea as to how to remove the acrylic sealer so that a different product can be used? (when found/figured out)

 

[Kriilin]

Edit: Diamond grinding is probably your best bet at this point for removing the old ****.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but I come from 15 years experience in the architectural and industrial coatings market as both a chemist and inside sales rep. The mechanical stress from driving vehicles, coupled with the chemical resistance required in a garage, means that one either has to pony up and pay for a good two-component system (usually epoxy), or frankly don't waste your time, and leave the concrete natural. People will buy the best building materials, windows etc., but have a mental block when shelling out for paint, I don't know why. I had a client once complain it was going to cost him $40K to paint his apartment block, "Forty thousand dollars...for paint!" I asked him what his apartment block was worth. That put it in perspective for him.

Like I said, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I don't work in the coatings industry any more, and don't represent any company. Just wanting to share my experience as so many have generously done with me.

P.S. A good quality coating still needs proper surface preparation, that part is the biggest pain in the a$$, but the most important.

 

[robertwhite]

Edit: Diamond grinding is probably your best bet at this point for removing the old ****.

Like I said, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I don't work in the coatings industry any more, and don't represent any company. Just wanting to share my experience as so many have generously done with me.

I don't think you are being a jerk at all. I asked for and hoped for honest opinions and you provided one.

I hear you about the "cheaping out" on the floor coating, but the shop is an addition to my barn and will be used as a shop, not a car showroom. I just wanted a coating that will allow oil/grease/etc to be cleaned up easily without ruining the concrete with ugly stains. I also wanted a coating that allows for easy broom swept shop area.

EVERY place I have looked and EVERY "vendor" that posts here that answered various posts I had was a ridiculous price when applied to 2200 sq ft. I just can't afford to spend $2K to coat the floor, then another almost $3K for a 2 post lift, and the list goes on.

I really wish that the vendors would be a little more honest and a little less snake oil salesmen who think $200 gallon is cheap. Problem is that I need 7 or 8 of those "cheap" gallons. (this is only an example to get a point across)

If you have ANY advice as to what reasonably priced product will work, I would sure appreciate it.

I would also appreciate any ideas as to how to go about exactly diamond grinding (what exactly is that?)this **** off. Are we talking about some big floor buffer type of thing? There are NO places around me that rent any normal type of machines found in most rental places.

 

[srode]

If you can't rent a grinder - you can buy a 7 inch diamond wheel for about $100 and put it on your own Grinder - but get ready for a huge dust storm if you don't use a vacumm system designed to capture the debris. Make sure you wear a good respirator, not one of those paper ones that has a couple rubber bands holding it to your face.

If it's the finish is that soft you might be able to strip it with a good pressure washer and then wipe with Acetone or other solvent.

 

[CaptainRay]

I tried about everything over the years bought most of it from hardware type stores, none of that cheap cement paint works, it all comes up... in the past few years several companies have introduced some good products though. I have seen Ucoat-it in ads and have followed the customer reviews... it's not all that expensive, but a lot more than the cheap stuff that doesn't work... It's affordable in my opinion and has some good reviews...
http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part-Type/Floor-Coating-Systems/
http://www.autopia.org/forum/man-cave/36452-review-ucoat-garage-floor-covering.html
I guess the old saying, "you get what you pay for" is pretty much on the mark.

 

[gabeancounter]

Got any pics of these tire marks? Many of these products show tire marks. For some reason more so if the vehicle is wet. My suggestion is to mix some "purple stuff" about half strength in a spray bottle and spray the tire marks. Mop. Did it come up?

Don't waste $2k on these flooring gimmicks. Good luck.

 

[thegarageguy]

Hello Robertwhite, from your original post, you said, "can easily feel the ridges in the coating". Being that it is an acrylic coating, it leads me to believe you applied it too thick. Even though I have no experience with this specific product, from my experience, most acrylics are meant to be spread very thin and are very low film forming coatings. For it to leave an imprint as you suggested, would cause me to believe you made an error in application.

With that being said and without being on site or without seeing pics (which would help tremendously) there may be some quick fixes. A xylene rub may re solidify the damaged area and you may be able to touch it up with some wax as well.

Just want everyone to understand that acrylics are weaker forms of sealers and typically have to be waxed to be maintained. Acrylics are great for ease of use, inexpensive, breathable and UV stable. The downside is that they need to be resealed every 6 months to a year, depending on traffic and maintained with a strict wax regimen. If not, you will begin to create wear patterns.

In my opinion, not the correct coating for a garage floor

 

[robertwhite]

you can buy a 7 inch diamond wheel for about $100 and put it on your own Grinder

Ummm, sounds good, but at 2200 sq ft, imagine how long it would take to do with a tiny little grinder?

I have seen Ucoat-it in ads and have followed the customer reviews... it's not all that expensive, but a lot more than the cheap stuff that doesn't work...

Thanks, I will look into that.

Got any pics of these tire marks?

I have pics and will post them up later today.

If you pull your truck in again, with cold tires, does it still make the marks?

Good question and I have thought about it, but have not yet tried as there are a million things going on right now.

Would it be acceptable to you to level and re-coat just the tracked area?

Or is the only acceptable solution to remove and replace?

At this point, I do not trust that this product will last at all, no less be acceptable.

 

[robertwhite]

you said, "can easily feel the ridges in the coating". Being that it is an acrylic coating, it leads me to believe you applied it too thick. Even though I have no experience with this specific product, from my experience, most acrylics are meant to be spread very thin and are very low film forming coatings. For it to leave an imprint as you suggested, would cause me to believe you made an error in application.

It rolled out to a thin coating. I absolutely believe that the tire marks (with ridges showing and feeling the tread pattern) are from the product not curing. Now, if a product hasn't dried in an indoor setting, with no moisture within 5 days, there is a problem with said product, IMHO. The product also has NO dry/drive time on the label other than it is walkable in 3-4 hours.

The downside is that they need to be resealed every 6 months to a year, depending on traffic and maintained with a strict wax regimen. If not, you will begin to create wear patterns.

In my opinion, not the correct coating for a garage floor

Any specific product you would recommend?

 

[thegarageguy]

typical spread rate of an acrylic on a concrete is about 500 to 1000 sqft per gallon. Generally done in 2 coats. There should barely be a film formed on your slab. For it to leave ridges causes me to wonder, that's all. Again, not there, haven't seen pics, don't care to point fingers...it is what it is.

We typically recommend an epoxy-polyurethane or polyaspartic sealer. I don't recommend anything specific because I am not here to promote or condemn any products. Plus, most of the material I use is not sold to the general public.

 

[robertwhite]

typical spread rate of an acrylic on a concrete is about 500 to 1000 sqft per gallon. Generally done in 2 coats.

The product stated 350-500 per gallon in a single coat which is what I got. 7 gallons to cover just under 2200 sq ft. Might be a tad thick, but not by much at all. In fact, there are a good deal of dry spots.

 

[thegarageguy]

Actually, went to the manufacturer site and it states "150 to 200 square feet per gallon depending on the porosity of the surface to be treated"

I guess that rules out application error

Weird that there wasn't any product data sheets or MSDS anywhere on the site.

BTW, its normal to get thirsty spots on a one coat application due to the natural inconsistent porosity of concrete. 2 thin coats is always better than one thick.

What has the manufacturer said?

 

[Edger]

Surface prep was the problem.

Sorry, but your floor was totally unsuitable for coating even though you did a great job. This is a very common mistake and not your fault. When any concrete floor is laid laitence is produced on the surface which is the shiny layer on top of new concrete - even broom finished concrete. This is too closed to allow a coating to soak in and adhere which is why acid etching, shot blasting (ugh) and diamond grinding is done by contractors before coating with anything, even a clear sealer. I am just trying to help, not criticize, you did a fantastic job of cleaning, but the surface was sealed off before you started without you knowing it.

To remove it I believe you should try those Soy products that you broom over and it dissolves. Then you have to wash it all off properly, but I believe they are environmentally friendly. If you want to coat again acid etch is the cheapest way and quite effective if done properly.

If you do not want to coat, but you want a floor that will not dust and be easy to clean try a concrete hardener. I recommend them completely having used them on factory floors for many years. Cheap, easy, permanent, just no shine.

See my webpage for some background info. I think Sherwin Williams were developing some good ones otherwise start Google searching. http://www.situp.com.au/Concrete Sealant Alternative.html

 

[robertwhite]

Actually, went to the manufacturer site and it states "150 to 200 square feet per gallon depending on the porosity of the surface to be treated"

I guess that rules out application error

Guess my memory is worse than I thought, as that's where I got my 350-500 from.

Weird that there wasn't any product data sheets or MSDS anywhere on the site.

In a thread that someone linked to, a rep/owner(?) of Wolverine products in NC said they are a major supplier to other companies who re-label the same product. If I had to guess, I would guess that Perk's Black Bull is one of them.

BTW, its normal to get thirsty spots on a one coat application due to the natural inconsistent porosity of concrete. 2 thin coats is always better than one thick.

The label expressly warns about 2 coats saying that it could cause mottling, and other things.

What has the manufacturer said?

That's a good question, too bad the manufacturer employee I spoke with pretty much blamed all the problems on:
1. Not enough cure time for the drive on/tire marks. Problem with that is the label does NOT list a drive on time and I sure would expect 5 days in 80+ weather to be plenty.
2. Dry spots are due to uneven float of the cement. Of course the float is not perfect as none are, but I used a heavy nap roller and plenty of product. The floor was absolutely wet on every inch of it when applied. The porosity being slightly different in spots is likely the cause.
3. At no time did the rep take any responsibility and I will probably take it up with Lowes where I purchased it.

At this point, I obviously have no faith in Perk/Black Bull and am really hesitant to apply a light second coat. I may spot treat a dry spot to see what happens. All I know is I have had a concrete floor in my new shop for 3 weeks or so and I can't even use it.

 

[robertwhite]

Surface prep was the problem.

Sorry, but your floor was totally unsuitable for coating even though you did a great job. This is a very common mistake and not your fault. When any concrete floor is laid laitence is produced on the surface which is the shiny layer on top of new concrete - even broom finished concrete. This is too closed to allow a coating to soak in and adhere which is why acid etching, shot blasting (ugh) and diamond grinding is done by contractors before coating with anything, even a clear sealer. I am just trying to help, not criticize, you did a fantastic job of cleaning, but the surface was sealed off before you started without you knowing it.

Problem is that I called the factory prior to application and asked if I need to acid etch the new concrete and was told no. (this again screams to me that Perk is just a distributor, after knowing what I now know)

To remove it I believe you should try those Soy products that you broom over and it dissolves. Then you have to wash it all off properly, but I believe they are environmentally friendly. If you want to coat again acid etch is the cheapest way and quite effective if done properly.

Soy products that dissolve acrylics? ANY link or name would be a great start as I have never heard of such a thing.

If you do not want to coat, but you want a floor that will not dust and be easy to clean try a concrete hardener. I recommend them completely having used them on factory floors for many years. Cheap, easy, permanent, just no shine.

See my webpage for some background info. I think Sherwin Williams were developing some good ones otherwise start Google searching. http://www.situp.com.au/Concrete Sealant Alternative.html

That sounds like it would great for my needs. Only question I would have is will it prevent oil spills from staining the floor?

And again, I am in no way offended by anything you have said. I sincerely appreciate both the criticism and the help. One part of building I have never done is concrete, which is why I am so uninformed regardless of how much reading I have done on the subject.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

I will say "Ditto" on the Garage Guys remarks.
Acrylic sealers don't have a place in the garage. These are better for patios, walks, etc...

We have the right products for your project but you will need to perform a proper prep stage with any of them. Acid etch or grind.

 

[robertwhite]

I will say "Ditto" on the Garage Guys remarks.
Acrylic sealers don't have a place in the garage. These are better for patios, walks, etc...

We have the right products for your project but you will need to perform a proper prep stage with any of them. Acid etch or grind.

I will definitely be looking into your products. First hurdle is getting this sealer off the floor.

Any ideas? Keep in mind that there is no rental places around. I plan on calling Perk again, but I doubt they will tell me how to remove their product.

 

[srode]

Try a small spot with Muratic acid - if it's a bit porous still it may losen it up so a pressure washer can strip it. Or just try starting with a pressure washer with high pressure tip at close range - say about 4 inches. Your symptoms sound like it's still soft and it might work.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Soy Gel remover/stripper. Google it.
Stuff works great.