floor heat disappointments?

[davidh73750]

A few weeks ago I went after a 55 chevy. The guy and his son had several buildings. The newest one was a 40 X 60, metal post frame, no expense spared(said he had 57K in it). I think instead of red iron it was grey maybe galvanized, fully insulated. Very nice and clean
They had the concrete radiant floor heat but were not using it. They said it was too expensive to use and instead were using the old kerosene torpedo heaters. I was beside myself. I thought this was the way to do it???
I want to build a 30X50 but the more I think about it think I'll just hang a modine or renzor heater and well insulate the place. As long as its 45-50F I am fine.

 

[PaulR]

x2, never heard a bad thing about radiant floor heat. I guess there are different ways to fuel it though. My old man does his with a wood furnace. Its cozy heat.

 

[Orangestang]

I would love to have radiant floor heat just think you can lie on the floor while working on your car and not freeze. If you spend that kind of money on a garage how can you ***** about heating costs.

 

[davidh73750]

I would love to have radiant floor heat just think you can lie on the floor while working on your car and not freeze. If you spend that kind of money on a garage how can you ***** about heating costs.

the cars in the garage were a 70SS chevelle restored, model A highboy roadster, 60 corvette, couple other $20K street rods and so on. So yes I was pretty surprised to find them not using it.
It was in Wichita area but still was only 25-30F outside

 

[Weedwaka]

Could be any number of reasons for the high costs I guess.

Slab insulation
Type of heater / heat used
Design / installation
Air

What really boggles the mind is why they did not trouble shoot it. You could hook it up to an outdoor wood burning furnace and heat the place for next to nothing.

 

[davidh73750]

I think it was propane.

 

[787B]

What really boggles the mind is why they did not trouble shoot it. You could hook it up to an outdoor wood burning furnace and heat the place for next to nothing.

Yeah, I'm thinking there's much more to the story. No way would anybody spend 60-large on a dream garage and then just say "meh" when the heat cost "too much" to run.

Either that or they are from Alaska...

 

[romoman]

I've heard of problems with radiant floor heat when you don't keep the shop warm all the time.

 

[Vicegrip]

Slow to come up to temp and take a good bit more energy than heating the air while you are in the space. Not the best if you are in the shop for an hour or two and not other times unless you want to keep the garage or shop at temp even when you are not there.

 

[Dragster Racer]

Some say why heat the air? I say why heat the ground? Even with insulation the potential losses can be pretty great. Insulation in the slab is critical.
I guess to answer the question about cost. If he spend 60k on the shop, and it is costing him $600/month to heat it.....I guess I couldn't do that. There is a limit to everything.

 

[Jackfre]

A poorly insulated slab can cost a lot to heat. Under slab and especially slab edge insulation must be done properly. Otherwise the slab is just a thermal bridge to the outside. Getting an infra-red image of a building will show the trouble spots.

Assuming, (always a dangerous thing) the owner of that 40x60 has a boiler in place large enough to handle the load, I'd isolate the primary radiant heated work area which I'd petition off for winter and use the excess boiler capacity to run and air handler with some spiral duct, and run that area much cooler. I would run the boiler off a good outdoor reset control.

That assumes that the radiant was laid out to allow that type of zoning. For anyone planning on doing this type install it is worth looking at that primary radiant slab work area as an independent floating insulated slab in the space. That puts you in control.

 

[wfopete]

Slow to heat up and slow to cool down. Outside temps that fluctuate (cool mornings and warm afternoons) drive radiant floor heat users nuts.

 

[BTI]

Using torpedoes instead of floor heat makes no sense and can't be cheaper unless something is wrong.
Kerosene around here as more than gas.
My heater will run for a little over 2 hrs on 1 gallon. For that size shop if heating it all the time that would be a bigger expense than the propane.
It either isn't as insulated as he thinks or something else is wrong.

BTI

 

[Gary S]

Around here wood isn't an answer. It is a problem. Wood costs more than natural gas to buy, and it is tons more work. Either you buy it at very high cost and then spend most of your life fueling the stove and cleaning out the ashes. Or, you spend all of your life doing backbreaking work cutting, hauling, and splitting it, and if you add in your driving costs, it still costs more than natural gas.
We have no trees here, but the ground is full of natural gas, so the gas company sells it to us cheap.

 

[Weedwaka]

The outdoor wood stove I was referring to takes chunks of log that are large ( no splitting ) and runs for about 24 hours on load. I get excited just thinking about all that cheap heat.

Cost is about 10k - 20k though depending on size / brand of the unit plus installation parts and piping to the houses. If you have a big heat load and cheap / easy access to wood its pretty hard to beat. I figure when the main house is up, we can heat the carriage house, main house, a small greenhouse and other small shop ( which the chika doesnt know I have plans for yet muhahaa ) . Im putting tubing in our driveway too.

Check out centralboilder.com

Also, radiant works great for peaky structures because the heat stays down low in the structure. We have 16 foot vaults in all our ceilings in the carriage house and when we used temporary heat, it all just went into the peak. It felt 10 - 15 degrees warmer up on a ladder. Now with the radiant, you have to try to feel a difference. Maybe 2 degrees. With standard heat, it was like hitting a brick wall with every step up in the peak.

Another plus for radiant, it doesnt all fly out your garage doors when they are opened.

 

[tdkkart]

Around here wood isn't an answer. It is a problem. Wood costs more than natural gas to buy, and it is tons more work. Either you buy it at very high cost and then spend most of your life fueling the stove and cleaning out the ashes. Or, you spend all of your life doing backbreaking work cutting, hauling, and splitting it, and if you add in your driving costs, it still costs more than natural gas.
We have no trees here, but the ground is full of natural gas, so the gas company sells it to us cheap.

Convincing wood heat nuts that it doesn't make sense is nearly as hard as convincing pot smokers that what their doing isn't good for them.
I think all that time out in the woods screws with their brains.
If you don't have a regular job, and have access to someone else's saws, splitters, trucks etc to wear out, then yes, it's cheap, for anyone else it doesn't make any sense.
I know a guy at work that takes 2-3 weeks of "vacation" every year to cut wood. #1, cutting wood is not a vacation. #2 the money he lost from not being at work would have paid to heat 3 houses.(we don't have use-it-or lose-it vacation, we get paid lump sum for the vacation we don't use).
I'll take my vacation to relax and pay the heat bills thank you.

 

[camnick]

Vicegrip makes a good point for me. I will be in the garage only a few hours a day. I hate to keep everything up to temp for 24 hours with radiant heat when I'm only in there for 2-3. Has anyone tried infrared heat?

 

[Older'n dirt]

My neighbor built a 28 x 36 with a second floor about 10 years ago. He did the in-floor heat and used it for the first four years. It's since shut down and he heats the entire building with a wood stove. His reasoning: expensive.

Another friend here in Central Illinois built a 50 x 50 NICE shop about 5 years ago. He did a zoned radiant system thinking he would spend a LOT of time in the shop since he's retired. When I was in the planning stages of my build he called me and asked how I planned to heat it. We talked for almost an hour and he finally said, "Can I make a recommendation? DON'T do radiant heat." He says he spends less time in the shop than he thought and since I'm still working (with little or no hope of retiring ANYTIME soon), I'll probably spend less time in the shop than he does, therefore making the investment less than wise. He shut his down and now uses his electric baseboard system.

Just relaying a couple of experiences.

 

[Gary S]

My experience is similar. I don't spend much time in my garage in the winter, so I don't need full time heat. I put in two 5kw electric heaters to heat it when I need to be out there. That way, I spent almost nothing for the heating system, and the cost of heat is very small too.
I have a workshop in my basement where I spend my winter time doing woodworking, so the garage in the winter is mostly just for parking the vehicles.

 

[steven083008]

Convincing wood heat nuts that it doesn't make sense is nearly as hard as convincing pot smokers that what their doing isn't good for them.
I think all that time out in the woods screws with their brains.
If you don't have a regular job, and have access to someone else's saws, splitters, trucks etc to wear out, then yes, it's cheap, for anyone else it doesn't make any sense.
I know a guy at work that takes 2-3 weeks of "vacation" every year to cut wood. #1, cutting wood is not a vacation. #2 the money he lost from not being at work would have paid to heat 3 houses.(we don't have use-it-or lose-it vacation, we get paid lump sum for the vacation we don't use).
I'll take my vacation to relax and pay the heat bills thank you.

I've heated my garage with wood for the last two winters and it has cost me about $8 total. Around here I can keep an eye on Craigslist and pick up free wood throughout the year and that lasts me all winter. Now I don't go through a bunch of wood each winter, but still... to say that wood isn't cheap as a blanket statement is not accurate. If it doesn't work for you, then fine, but there is no point in trying to make others feel like they are making the wrong choice.

And for the record, I enjoy splitting wood.

 

[Older'n dirt]

I used to heat my garage AND my house with wood. I actually enjoyed getting out a couple of days a month with my son & some friends cutting firewood. A few years ago we gave the house a facelift inside & I took the stove out. It's now in my son's 40 x 60 shop and does a kick-a$$ job of heating it.
I love the feel of wood heat, and with the right stove and a little experience you can get a looooooooong burn and a nice warm house/shop for very little expense.

 

[Weedwaka]

If you are not going to be using the shop all the time, it doesnt make any sense to spend the $$. No doubt.

 

[CARS]

I added on to my body shop 5 years ago and spent the money on in-floor radiant heat. It is great not having air blow around from a hanging heater/ducts. Keeps the dust where I can get it, on the floor

But, it cost a fortune to run that first year. I went through a 500 gal LP tank in November! It wasn't even cold out yet. My problems were in the design. It seems every plumbing and heating guy becomes "experts" when there is a new trend.

I insulated under my slab and down my foundation wall just like I was told to do. Problem is that he had read that or heard that somewhere but didn't know what it meant. My slab is tied right to the foundation wall that sits a couple feet above grade. The foundation wall was literally sucking heat from the slab because there was no thermal break. Well, what can you do now? I added 2" of insulation to the OUTSIDE of the foundation wall. Made the world of difference but I know I am still loosing heat down the wall (up the wall is actually just another slab to radiate heat to the inside now).

I have also spent numerous amounts of time tuning the mixing valve and the loops. That helps a great deal.

I was alittle disappointed in the cost, both initially v/s a $800.00 hanging heater and with the lack of fuel savings, but I will never be disappointed in the quality of heat

 

[Weedwaka]

I worked in a couple big shops with radiant ceiling hung units and they were so nice. Doesnt blow your paper and plastic masking all over. Doesn't dry your eyes out. No hot and cold spots. After that, going back to a shop with blowing heaters was terrible. Drove me nuts every day

 

[cnc-me]

We have had in floor heat in our shop since 1979.
This is going to be the last year for it.
Disconnecting it, and going to Modines, not very efficient to operate,also
takes a long time to heat up.
Its starting to leak, had to add water to the system 3 times, this
year already.
Its nice heat, but expensive heat.
To be fair though, are floor is poorly insulated, and in 1979 I don't think their was
PEX tubing like they have now.
We used ABS black plastic pipe.
We put up a new addition in 1999, and did not put any pipe in the concrete, just a plastic sheet barrier under it.

 

[FATBOYINMAINE]

hey guys, new to the forum. im building a 30x50 steel garage in northern Maine. 14 ft walls. im very interested in the reviews/comments about in floor radiant heat. i certainly dont want to spend big money to install and spend even more to heat a shop i wont spend more than a few hours in it per day. seems like in floor is the best feeling heat but expensive. anyone use a pellet stove boiler for this? thanks

 

[trythis]

With a 14 ft ceiling, consider radiant tube heat. You can get the feel of radiant floor without the expense and the dual stage type can warm the place up quick enough. No blowing air, no noise, no water pipes in the floor.

 

[Fastback]

I insulated under my slab and down my foundation wall just like I was told to do. Problem is that he had read that or heard that somewhere but didn't know what it meant. My slab is tied right to the foundation wall that sits a couple feet above grade. The foundation wall was literally sucking heat from the slab because there was no thermal break. Well, what can you do now?

How close are your loops to the wall? Can you make a saw cut between the wall and the first run of PEX? You could make a deep cut then fill it with backer rod and seal the top with SL-1. That would keep the heat from convecting and allow your slab to expand.

 

[CARS]

hey guys, new to the forum. im building a 30x50 steel garage in northern Maine. 14 ft walls. im very interested in the reviews/comments about in floor radiant heat. i certainly dont want to spend big money to install and spend even more to heat a shop i wont spend more than a few hours in it per day. seems like in floor is the best feeling heat but expensive. anyone use a pellet stove boiler for this? thanks

I've looked into the pellet stove boilers (I have a pellet stove in my house to supplement my lp heat) but then you have another couple grand in equipment.

If you are only in for a few hours a day, I would avoid in-floor heat. It is a wonderful heat but since you don't want to adjust it (set it and forget it), your boiler is just going to run, run, run when you are at work or sleeping.

I am in my shop 8 hours a day and it bugs me that it's running the other 2/3rds of the day . BUT! in theory, it is going to be hard to heat up your area because all your "stuff" (including ice cold concrete under foot) is never going to warm up and will always radiate cold.

 

[CARS]

How close are your loops to the wall? Can you make a saw cut between the wall and the first run of PEX? You could make a deep cut then fill it with backer rod and seal the top with SL-1. That would keep the heat from convecting and allow your slab to expand.

Pex is away from the wall but I have my 14' x 30' paintbooth in the main "problem" corner

I had that same thought before. Thanks for the idea though!

 

[Bigpigdave]

Convincing wood heat nuts that it doesn't make sense is nearly as hard as convincing pot smokers that what their doing isn't good for them.
I think all that time out in the woods screws with their brains.
If you don't have a regular job, and have access to someone else's saws, splitters, trucks etc to wear out, then yes, it's cheap, for anyone else it doesn't make any sense.
I know a guy at work that takes 2-3 weeks of "vacation" every year to cut wood. #1, cutting wood is not a vacation. #2 the money he lost from not being at work would have paid to heat 3 houses.(we don't have use-it-or lose-it vacation, we get paid lump sum for the vacation we don't use).
I'll take my vacation to relax and pay the heat bills thank you.

+100
This is one of the best posts I have read lately. I have tried to convince "wood heat nuts" for years that their heat is not free!!! It is an impossible task.

 

[FATBOYINMAINE]

it is hard to justify heating the floor 24/7, when an average worker guy like myself will probably only spend time in there weekends. can the in floor heat system be set on a lower temp, and then have a secondary system to raise temp while working? i really hate a stone cold concrete floor.

 

[sneezer41]

Insulation is always cheaper than oil
Just prepping the space for radiant[properly insulating the slab] is half the battle.

radiant done well can be cheap to operate, radiant done cheaply will not be

guys mystify me when they heat with an electric hot water heater and expect it to be cheaper than what it is, electric heat

if you use a space intermittently, it would be wise to have a fan coil set up to give you a boost of hot air to make you comfortable. also, running the heat on a setback to force it to run for an hour a day will keep the slab warm. If you work 9 to 5 have it come on for an hour every day at 4:30. You can know exactly what your heat bill will be, and I am willing to bet that a well insulated building will stay at a decent temp most of the time. Conversely, if you expect to walk in after 2weeks and get heat now, you will not be happy

My next garage [will be my third build grumble grumble] I am considering solar radiant. Throw a couple of solar panels on the roof and use the floor as a heat dump. Sure, i might have to keep the windows open in november, but it has promise.

 

[nate379]

I have slab heat in my house and garage and it's ok, but not great. I don't even use it in the house unless I'm away.
I heated with a wood stove this year and kept the house at 70-75* on about 2 cords of wood so far.
It's been much cheaper to use the wood compared to using gas.

In the garage I keep it around 55*. If I open the vehicle door when it's cold out, it will take several hrs to get back up to temp and that really *****.

Ideally I think what would be best in the house is the slab heat to keep the floor warm but also a forced air system to get the temp up fast when needed and also for air movement. Would need some kind of logic controller that would figure when to run what.

In the garage same idea as well. I have been thinking of installing a ceiling heater tied into the boiler water. I'd be able to leave the floor heat at 45-50* and when I go work in there just turn the ceiling heater to get it to 65*.

As far as costing less to run, that has been far from the truth with my place. 2 houses down it's forced air, they have bills around $75-100/month, while mine where $200-$250. Similar sized home and insulated about the same. My place is insulated well BTW. Keep in mind I have heated all winter (since beg of Oct) on only 2 cords of wood. Some people use close to that in a month.

 

[CARS]

Ideally I think what would be best in the house is the slab heat to keep the floor warm but also a forced air system to get the temp up fast when needed and also for air movement. Would need some kind of logic controller that would figure when to run what.

Or two thermostats set at different temps???

In the garage same idea as well. I have been thinking of installing a ceiling heater tied into the boiler water. I'd be able to leave the floor heat at 45-50* and when I go work in there just turn the ceiling heater to get it to 65*.

I have that for heat recovery after I **** all the hot air out from running the paint booth. It's never enough to cool the slab, so it stays stable, but it sure ***** the warm ambient air out!

 

[kooldino]

Yeah, I'm thinking there's much more to the story. No way would anybody spend 60-large on a dream garage and then just say "meh" when the heat cost "too much" to run.

Either that or they are from Alaska...

Tell you what, I have an insulated 30x60 shop with propane forced air heat.

I spend about 30 hours a week in it in the winter. While I'm in it, It's about 60* on average. When I'm not in it, it's 43*.

My heating bill last month was $600.

OTOH, my house uses OIL baseboard heat. It's about the same size as my shop. I spend at least 80 hours a week there, and it's 73* while I'm there. When I'm gone, it's around 63. Last month's heating bill was $550.

So for lower temps and less than half the use, the shop still cost more to heat.

I'm considering going with a wood stove both home and in the shop.

 

[IGOTWUD]

IGOT WUD, but I burn coal. CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP! Alot less work too. Pennsylvania has verry good coal, up to 13,500 BTU per LB. Just my 2cent.

 

[jameswood]

I built my last shop with in floor heat and loved it but like others said with intermittent use it was costing too much so I would set the slab to whatever kept the shop around 45* and added a separate heater for quick warm ups. That worked good. Found that fast warm ups was my best approach to how I used the space.

Now I have pole building shops (built by someone else) that werent designed to be heated and hate these cold floors. Miss my old shop in floor heat. I have set it up for quick warmup force air heat, but that mid 40's cold slab-ballast effect is a killer.

 

[macdabs]

I fired my in floor heat 8" slab 40X80' steel building with 14 ft eaves 20 ft peak building last Sat. . In the northeast we are at a nice 12 degrees in the day and a warm 6 at night. not to mention I am on the mountain at 1800ft elevation. The slab heated to 40 the first day 55 Sunday ,64 was air temp Monday . I had to shut the boiler down Monday night to install a damper on the flue. To much draft , fixed the damper still working out the details on operating a coal/wood boiler. Fired up the boiler yesterday the building kept temp all day from the slab heat at 58 was 60 with one of the coldest days of the year. I have a issue with the boiler not going over 120 with a long burn time not from the slab, it is a issue burning soft vs hard coal. If I burn wood I see 180 temps and can even feed my 300 ft of pex heating my home also. My first impression of the in floor heat . AWESOME I have other buildings and garages and built this one as my last garage and nothing compares to in floor heat in a cold climate. The reason I am using wood coal is Natural gas is not available and you know with oil at 3.15 gallon coal or wood is the only reasonable source. I may look at a pellet boiler next year for a backup.

Mac

 

[rlme36]

After reading the above posts I think I am happy that my 36x30 that is heated via elec boiler set at 50 degrees is only costing me $7.50 a day for a 12kw hydorshark unit. The place is well insulated as is the slab