Floor Heat- has anyone used the Menards setup?

[tstaude]

I am slowly but surely closing in on needing to do my floor heat setup, I have looked at a few online retailers, but more recently Menards.

I know it will probably cost a bit more than the online retailers, but they have everything laid out pretty plain and simple in their plumbing section. Plus there is a Menards less than 10 minutes away, so any off hours repairs would be really quick.

Anyone on here done this with their setup?
Mine is 1200sf set up with 4 zones

https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/hydronic-radiant-heat/radiant-heat-control-panels/c-8521.htm

 

[engineer2]

After seeing their prices (many years ago) I built my own for a fraction of the cost, but mine is only 1 room and 500 sq-ft.
Look at the components on their board and see how much it would be to build your own.

 

[tstaude]

Exactly, I would plan to source all of their parts and build my own board. Although their boards are not crazy expensive....have to weigh out the time factor.

 

[engineer2]

I made it about as simple as can be. Been working great since 2003.
Of course, 4 zones is going to be more complicated.
We have city supplied Lake Michigan water so quality is excellent and pressure is steady.

 

[Innovate1]

I set up my own. Provides more flexibility in choosing the pumps and such. It's a trade off of course. Buying the assembly saves the time of sourcing the parts and putting it together but I figured it was worth it. Did 3 zones. Two zones in the basement of about 1600 sq feet and the third is the 900 sq foot garage. We don't use the basement zones because we have forced air gas furnace with AC and slab is insulated so the basement is comfortable without it. The garage heat is really nice in the winter!

 

[tstaude]

So i have it set up as four quadrants in the shop and i am thinking of just doing two zones, or even a single zone and manifold it together, with a manifold i can adjust
Here's what it looked like before concrete:

 

[engineer2]

I did 2 parallel loops with water flowing in opposite directions (as suggested by my sister-in-law!)
Another way is a parallel spiral.
If you keep your loops short enough, the conventional way will be OK because you can favor more heat for certain areas.

 

[yeldogt]

So i have it set up as four quadrants in the shop and i am thinking of just doing two zones, or even a single zone and manifold it together, with a manifold i can adjust
Here's what it looked like before concrete:

don't run all the hots out in one direction ...

 

[yeldogt]

Exactly, I would plan to source all of their parts and build my own board. Although their boards are not crazy expensive....have to weigh out the time factor.

The most important thing is to pick the boiler and follow the manufacturers piping .....

Frankly, the linked layout from Manerds is one people have used .... but, makes no sense to me. It's all wrong IMO

You don't need much to do a proper setup ..... there are some simple fittings that make putting the pressure tank and spirovent together. Most boilers are primary/ secondary and the pumps are easy and cheap (some boilers come with the primary) ... you can get everything from supplyhouse. Do some looking around and you will see the various fitting that make things easy .... you want a few valves in the correct spots so you can service and do the initial flush .... spending the extra $150 for a few components will make it go easier. You can put it together for less than the assembled price

There is a great little book .... primary secondary pumping made easy ..... $25.

My guess is there will not be a great need to zone that space ..... get a manifold that will balance the flows.

 

[Innovate1]

What's the point of having more tubing in some areas and less in others? Unless you have different rooms in the space with walls between I don't see any point in having multiple zones. Just make it one zone and use manifolds to run them all together. I got adjustable manifolds but have never adjusted the valves to lower flow in some loops. I also don't see the need for multiple pumps. Just do like engineer2 with a mixing valve if you need to lower the temp of the water going to the floor and use a bigger pump to do it all. I did as recommended to start the loops near the edge since for even slab temps that's where most of the loss is. If I did it again I think I would reverse that. Right at the walls is often covered with shelves or cabinets so you never stand on it. And as I see it the main point is space heat although having the slab warm is a big plus especially when laying under a vehicle. I control mine with a standard wall thermostat and it works fine. Some people insist you have to have a slab temp sensor. Maybe that's true in some cases but I think in most cases it's not necessary.

 

[Jackfre]

I’m with Yeltdog on this one. First, as the heating season will be winding down in the next couple months you have time to deal with this. Don Holahan’s books are excellent. He has the ability to take a technical topic and make sense of it to the lay-men. That is not easy. I’d suggest you break down the components you require, make a list and go to the local HVAC/P&H supply houses in your area. Speak with the branch manager and give him a list of your requirements. Also, look at what boilers are being used by the trade in your area and buy one of those as well. Taht way, should you get into a fix you have local trade support.

 

[kabinenroller]

With the square footage you have one zone will work better unless you have interior walls dividing the space. I heat 1,600 of my 2,400sq.ft. With one zone and 7 loops of about 230’ each. A wall mounted on demand Takaki unit has no problem with this setup for the last 10 years. I do have a full foundation and everything is super insulated.
I might be your neighbor.

 

[yeldogt]

What's the point of having more tubing in some areas and less in others? Unless you have different rooms in the space with walls between I don't see any point in having multiple zones. Just make it one zone and use manifolds to run them all together. I got adjustable manifolds but have never adjusted the valves to lower flow in some loops. I also don't see the need for multiple pumps. Just do like engineer2 with a mixing valve if you need to lower the temp of the water going to the floor and use a bigger pump to do it all. I did as recommended to start the loops near the edge since for even slab temps that's where most of the loss is. If I did it again I think I would reverse that. Right at the walls is often covered with shelves or cabinets so you never stand on it. And as I see it the main point is space heat although having the slab warm is a big plus especially when laying under a vehicle. I control mine with a standard wall thermostat and it works fine. Some people insist you have to have a slab temp sensor. Maybe that's true in some cases but I think in most cases it's not necessary.

More tubing in one spot will provide more heat ...... some people just make a big space all the same. I told my friend to lay out his big space with 12" where his cars are sitting and 6" in the area were he works. Using the same temp and flow there is a natural temp difference in the two spaces ... no need to have the cars as warm as people

Also -- with new type pumps a single one will do all the zones ... they auto adjust. Still need a boiler pump. With modulating there is no need for mixing valves

 

[tstaude]

don't run all the hots out in one direction ...

The plan was to run all the hot out the perimeter because of that will be the most heat loss. Both my concrete guy and a couple HVAC guys recommended this. Pretty easy to reverse if needed.

 

[tstaude]

With the square footage you have one zone will work better unless you have interior walls dividing the space. I heat 1,600 of my 2,400sq.ft. With one zone and 7 loops of about 230’ each. A wall mounted on demand Takaki unit has no problem with this setup for the last 10 years. I do have a full foundation and everything is super insulated.
I might be your neighbor.

That's kinda what I figured to use one zone and manifold it. I'll have to check out that Takaki unit, where did you pick it up?

I am over in Aztalan neighbor

 

[yeldogt]

The plan was to run all the hot out the perimeter because of that will be the most heat loss. Both my concrete guy and a couple HVAC guys recommended this. Pretty easy to reverse if needed.

I would get a four zone manifold -- I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say set up with two zones.

It's hard to tell from the picture exactly what is going on in the space -- I see an open area w/o tubing --- is that a lift? Whey did you leave all of it open?

My point was don't send all the hot lines out either left or right --- that area will get all the heat. Out door reset will mitigate that -- but so manny here don't use it and on/off gets you hot spots.

Perimeter heating -- in general is correct. The problem with many garage spaces is the perimeter being covered w/ benches. Tighter loops near doors is another item that can add comfort. In larger spaces loop layout can do zones of higher heat just with more tubing

 

[tstaude]

I would get a four zone manifold -- I'm not sure what you are talking about when you say set up with two zones.

It's hard to tell from the picture exactly what is going on in the space -- I see an open area w/o tubing --- is that a lift? Whey did you leave all of it open?

My point was don't send all the hot lines out either left or right --- that area will get all the heat. Out door reset will mitigate that -- but so manny here don't use it and on/off gets you hot spots.

Perimeter heating -- in general is correct. The problem with many garage spaces is the perimeter being covered w/ benches. Tighter loops near doors is another item that can add comfort. In larger spaces loop layout can do zones of higher heat just with more tubing

I see what you mean.

Bottom right corner is where the manifold will be, two lines go up and two lines go to the left
on the LH side of the picture is two work bays, center of each has a couple of coils an open where the lift posts will go
Also a couple coils in front of the two garage doors on the LH side

 

[yeldogt]

With outdoor reset -- the system is running and the boiler is going on and off to just supply enough heat for the building. Modern pumps can be bought for $150 that use very low power (15w) .... so the cost to keep them running is very low. This results in a uniform slab temp using the lowest water temp -- allows the boiler to condense and run very efficient.

Many here use a traditional thermostat on a wall .... this is measuring air temp and will have the system going on and off. Normally what happens is the system will go on and the slab will heat nearest the manifold. The boiler will be producing higher temp water. Prior to uniform slab temp the thermostat will be satisfied. I can heat my large studio building (1600 sf) with only 1/2 of the loops on -- that part of the slab will be warmer .... but it's producing enough to heat the space.

When you have it dialed in correctly the slab is only about 5-6 degrees over the room temp

 

[kabinenroller]

That's kinda what I figured to use one zone and manifold it. I'll have to check out that Takaki unit, where did you pick it up?

I am over in Aztalan neighbor

I bought the Takaki unit 10 years about from an in line supplier, before placing the order I contacted Takaki and explained my building, the R value of the floor, walls, and ceiling, I also supplied them with the loop sizes, etc. They recommended a boiler so that is what I bought. I have no natural gas so I run LP, it’s difficult to say what it costs to heat the shop because my tank supplies my home also. My system works well, the heat is even through out the space, I keep the thermostat at about 59 and never “play” with it.
I’m 20 minutes South of Milwaukee, just East of I-94. Aztalan is a nice area, been through there many times.

 

[tstaude]

I bought the Takaki unit 10 years about from an in line supplier, before placing the order I contacted Takaki and explained my building, the R value of the floor, walls, and ceiling, I also supplied them with the loop sizes, etc. They recommended a boiler so that is what I bought. I have no natural gas so I run LP, it’s difficult to say what it costs to heat the shop because my tank supplies my home also. My system works well, the heat is even through out the space, I keep the thermostat at about 59 and never “play” with it.
I’m 20 minutes South of Milwaukee, just East of I-94. Aztalan is a nice area, been through there many times.

Very cool, I'll look into the takaki units, how many BTU's did you go with?

I had the plan to set mine at 50-55 and just leave it, that's plenty warm for me while working in the winter.

 

[tstaude]

With outdoor reset -- the system is running and the boiler is going on and off to just supply enough heat for the building. Modern pumps can be bought for $150 that use very low power (15w) .... so the cost to keep them running is very low. This results in a uniform slab temp using the lowest water temp -- allows the boiler to condense and run very efficient.

Many here use a traditional thermostat on a wall .... this is measuring air temp and will have the system going on and off. Normally what happens is the system will go on and the slab will heat nearest the manifold. The boiler will be producing higher temp water. Prior to uniform slab temp the thermostat will be satisfied. I can heat my large studio building (1600 sf) with only 1/2 of the loops on -- that part of the slab will be warmer .... but it's producing enough to heat the space.

When you have it dialed in correctly the slab is only about 5-6 degrees over the room temp

Can you post a picture of your setup?
Also curious of your heat source, I am on the fence between a power vent and a tankless.

 

[yeldogt]

Can you post a picture of your setup?
Also curious of your heat source, I am on the fence between a power vent and a tankless.

Not sure what a "power vent" is? Are you speaking of a tank type water heater?

The first thing to do is the heat load based on the local temps and what insulation is in the building --- the doors play a big part as they can be sources of leaks. You don't want to go too big with the heat source.

Another factor is the actual heat source ... there are boilers that come w/ ODR primary pump and related items needed for proper setup. So they seem more expensive -- but, in the end are not and give you a better system in the end.

Here is my latest system .....It's much more complex than what you have to do. It's doing an unusual house conversion w/ 4k plus SF. One thing to note is it uses 4 manifold (two remotely mounted) -- 33 loops or so of PEX. ---- one secondary smart pump. See people using way too many pumps ...

You can see the spirovent in the picture and one-of the fast speciality fittings that allow the connection of the pressure tank and water fill -- also a fitting for the filling/ purging of the system. Pumps with the valves for easy install/ removal. You don't need lots of parts .... just the correct ones

 

[tstaude]

Thanks!
Power vent is the trade name for a power vented gas water heater (does not require a chimney)

 

[tstaude]

This guy has a pretty simple setup with his Takagi, this might be the winner coming in less than $2k

 

[kabinenroller]

Here is a cut sheet for the unit I have:

http://www.takagi.com/media/20016/T-H2-DV.pdf

 

[tstaude]

Here is a cut sheet for the unit I have:

http://www.takagi.com/media/20016/T-H2-DV.pdf

It's on back order but looks like I could have it in September.

 

[35k0]

I use an electric EZB-ECO from Electro Industries. Unreal company to work with, very helpful, even for a newb like myself.
Everything you need is in this cabinet, including the boiler. The Menards ones do not come with the boiler.

 

[yeldogt]

This guy has a pretty simple setup with his Takagi, this might be the winner coming in less than $2k

Don't follow him .........

Pumping away is correct for a cast boiler -- or other higher mass boiler. even a lower mass floor copper boiler. It is not correct for a wall type boiler or on demand hot water heater.

Wall hung use primary/ secondary -- due to the type of heat exchanger they have

He has mixed it all up. If you look at the manual for the heater you will see the diagram shows the pump -- pumping into the unit -- this is typical and required to overcome the high resistance of the internal heat exchanger. Remember hot water heaters are expecting high pressure from your house water supply to the cold inlet. They are also intended for higher output -- that's why you see them connected to hydroair. All of the manufacturers units that are able to be used for any type of domestic heating have it that way.

Anyway .... even on low fire at 18k --- it's a very big boiler and will have to go on and off. Since it's really designed to heat water for domestic use -- the input is very large.

He is getting enough flow because his pump is huge .... way bigger than required ..... wonder what is the power usage. All said he is only getting 1.3gpm. Not much given the pump. Radiant is very forgiving -- if you pump heat into a slab .... it will get hot and heat the space.

As far as the controls -- he is doing a manual control. Picking the temp of the boiler water and using the air temp in the space to regulate the final temp. This could all be done with outdoor reset -- the boiler changes temp of water based on outside temp and it's automaic. You would have to find the cheapest unit with it ....

The little book I referenced about primary/ secondary -- the author is the same person who wrote "pumping away" . The guy in the video just did not know that his boiler is not the same. The fluid engineering and principles/ laws are all now on the secondary with a wall boiler .... not as he has done them on the primary.

Also with new pumps -- they have internal check valves. No need to add aditional types and you don;t use swings. Using my recommended fitting on the spriovent eliminates some of his mess -- and you have a pressure gauge right there. Also ---- his tank is too big. Look at the tank in mine w/ thousands of feet of PEX ... the little red one.

All the videos on the internet have been wrong IMO ....

 

[yeldogt]

I use an electric EZB-ECO from Electro Industries. Unreal company to work with, very helpful, even for a newb like myself.
Everything you need is in this cabinet, including the boiler. The Menards ones do not come with the boiler.

Electrics are in some ways easier to pipe as they often come setup with the primary pump -- so you are already 1/2 way there. It's a question of the electric rate ...

They can cycle in a way to modulate in a way that other can't -- that said --- I have seen where people still try and do them using only the included pump and not primary secondary ..... this will only work with a very small system and will often have higher water temps at the heater as the flows are lower

 

[finn]

I didn’t read all the threads, but I did buy the Menards panel for the cottage, and another a few years later when we put an addition on and moved to the lake full time.

Both times the box just barely fit into the 25% (or whatever) discount bag sale Menards has once a year in the winter. That made the price competitive with a home brew job.

One thing to consider is that the wiring color code is non-traditional, so it made retrofitting a Nest thermostat a little complicated. I ended up setting up a Taco relay to control the system last fall before we headed to the southwest for the winter. Works, but not optimal. ( one of the original Danfoss thermostats failed and it was obsolete and NLA, so I ended up going with a nest)

 

[KevinL]

Yes I have a Menards pump system. I posted last night in the "show me pics of your infloor " thread.

Been working great so far. Sad thing is I went back and totalled everything up, and with this economy prices are up almost $1800 now from when I purchased everything. Glad I did it now instead of waiting.

 

[Two Pump Chump]

Calling the heat source a boiler is misleading. My tankless unit per mfg of the tank and the radiant system is max at 120 F. Set up for glycol and water mix, closed system.