Floor joist direction change

[mach158]

Long story short my brothers house needs all the floor joists under the kitchen replaced due to termite damage. This section will also need to be lifted to straighten it out and re-align everything. Probably needs to go up 6" at the worst spot.

My question is can I simply change the direction of the joists? The kitchen was an add on a long time ago to a 100 year old house. The kitchen is just one level sitting over a crawl space sitting on an old lime stone foundation where the rest of the house is a 2 story sitting on the limestone so the kitchen has nothing else bearing a load on it or in it.

The reason for the direction change is it will shorten the length of the joists but also allow for easier layout of plumbing and HVAC. Another problem with the current joists is they are butchered from some hack installing the plumbing and HVAC.

The sill plates and header joists will also be replaced when the kitchen is lifted and any foundation problems corrected but the main issue is the floor joists. Seems as though this would be simple enough but checking here with the more knowledgeable people first before making plans and submitting those for the appropriate permits.

 

[Zeke]

Why not? Sounds like you have surveyed the situation and determined that changing the orientation of the floor joists is beneficial. If you are replacing all that you say, it doesn't seem to make any difference.

Now wait — there will be all kinds of comments from the peanut gallery about why you shouldn't do this because if you do the sun won't come up in the East and the rooster won't crow.

 

[CJ7VFR]

...Now wait — there will be all kinds of comments from the peanut gallery about why you shouldn't do this because if you do the sun won't come up in the East and the rooster won't crow.

And you will become constipated and get bags under your eyes....

Jim

 

[Movover]

Shorter joists ... stronger.. easier to run what you need? Sounds like a win win

 

[Redwolf947]

Shorter joists ... stronger.. easier to run what you need? Sounds like a win win

^^^^ This

 

[MoonRise]

can I simply change the direction of the joists?

Simple? No. Doable? Yes.

If the floor joists don't actually directly support any load bearing walls above them, then you could conceivably redo the direction of the floor joists.

But that means actually removing ALL the 'bad' floor joists entirely in order to start putting in the new floor joists in the different direction. Which means the floor and subfloor of the kitchen have to come out too. Which means all the major appliances and the lower cabinets and countertop and sink have to come out as well. About the only things left in the kitchen will be the (four?) walls and the upper cabinets and the ceiling.

Or, you can try to 'stage' the floor joist removal in small sections, But that means a whole bunch of temporary support 'beams' under the floor joists to support them as you cut out two or three feet from an end of the bad floor joists and have the temp support beam(s) under the cut end of the floor joists as you then wiggle in the new floor joists in the new direction. Repeat until done.

All while jacking up the sagging floor and getting things back to somewhat level. As you are also taking out and replacing sill plates and the rim joists.

Simple? Not really. Doable? Yes.

With that much effort going on though, I'd look into removing the kitchen entirely down to the foundation walls and then redoing it all from the foundation up. Adding in the possible 'surprise' factor of some more termite damage in the walls (studs and/or sheathing). You're already doing the floor joists and sill plates and rim joists and the plumbing and the HVAC. How old is the roof system (shingles?) Any insulation in the walls of this 'old' kitchen? Decent window(s) and doors, or could they be due for replacement as well? Any other 'niggling' issues/problems/quirks in the kitchen (layout, structure, functionality, etc) that could be taken care of with completely removing the old add-on kitchen and just rebuilding it entirely from the foundation up?

Got pics? We like pics.

 

[rlitman]

Why not? Sounds like you have surveyed the situation and determined that changing the orientation of the floor joists is beneficial. If you are replacing all that you say, it doesn't seem to make any difference.

Now wait — there will be all kinds of comments from the peanut gallery about why you shouldn't do this because if you do the sun won't come up in the East and the rooster won't crow.

or else it will
Translate your documents into Swahili
Make your TV record "Gigli"
Neuter your pets and give your laundry static cling

Nah, I too am with the win-win crowd. Probably want to use ground contact rated pressure treated wood for the sill plates. And the corrosion rated hot dipped fasteners to go with that.

 

[mach158]

To be more specific on the plan, we will go in from the top. So the kitchen is getting gutted of all appliances and all cabinets as well as the little half wall/bar thing and we are taking out the floor and joists. The walls will be braced when lifted and then new treated wood and appropriate supports and fasteners installed to prevent any rot or possible termite issues. I tend to over do it when doing something and do to that we talked about just taking down that whole kitchen and building up but then the materials cost goes way up plus the rest of the room (floors, ceiling, and roof) are in good shape.

Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something in my thought process here as sometimes I will overlook something.

 

[Git]

Not having seen any pics - I wonder if you may be better off just installing rim boards and installing all new joists using joist hangers - just like building a deck. Would be a lot easier getting everything straight and level, kind of like balloon framing (just a thought off the top of my head so don't crucify me)

 

[Falcon67]

I thought all floor joists had to point toward Mecca. Or was that Topeka? I forget. Check the WABC (Wise *** Building Code)

The biggest deal I've ever had with floor joists is spacing and support. Fix it so the floor is solid and not bouncy, however it all works out.

 

[mach158]

Not having seen any pics - I wonder if you may be better off just installing rim boards and installing all new joists using joist hangers - just like building a deck. Would be a lot easier getting everything straight and level, kind of like balloon framing (just a thought off the top of my head so don't crucify me)

I'll have to get pics when we get this started as I didn't bother taking my phone while crawling in the dirt under the house. I had this initial thought as well but one of the header joists isn't the greatest so we figured since we are lifting it then why not just do that too.

 

[Git]

The advantage of the joist hanger/balloon framing is you can replace all the bad sections and as long as your sitting on something solid you would not have to worry about having the correct elevation or if everything is truly level on the new joists. For me it always seem easier to start new instead of trying to make something work out of a pile of ****

 

[mach158]

I thought all floor joists had to point toward Mecca. Or was that Topeka? I forget. Check the WABC (Wise *** Building Code)

We use ISABC (International Smart *** Building Code) here so it allows for a little more leniency. In section 120 para 6 subsection 2 part b it notes that floor joists need to run parallel to the neighbors fence 2 blocks to the southwest unless no neighbor exists then you must reference the house to the first house to the northeast. But section 142 para 9 subsection 7 part y notes that if no house exists within 5 miles of the house being constructed then all joists must run parallel to the sheeps head on the night of the blood moon. Thankfully it's in town so we have another house to reference and this allows us to change direction since it was not built to proper ISABC code.

 

[WNYflyer]

Just be aware that basement/crawl space foundation walls are typically also designed to resist the horizontal soil load/pressure from the exterior backfill. They are assumed to act as beams spanning vertically from the base to the floor joist/decking. In other words the joist and decking brace the top of the foundation walls. With only the depth of a crawl space might not be a big deal but who knows. Also need to be careful where you put jacks or drive equipment next to the foundation walls especially with the joists/bracing removed so as not to damage the foundation walls.

 

[Zeke]

Just be aware that basement/crawl space foundation walls are typically also designed to resist the horizontal soil load/pressure from the exterior backfill. They are assumed to act as beams spanning vertically from the base to the floor joist/decking. In other words the joist and decking brace the top of the foundation walls. With only the depth of a crawl space might not be a big deal but who knows. Also need to be careful where you put jacks or drive equipment next to the foundation walls especially with the joists/bracing removed so as not to damage the foundation walls.

If that's the case, extra pressure blocking will do that job. I like PB on 4' centers anyway so I catch all 4 edges of the plywood subfloor. I might still use T&G but I don't need to. Easier in a remodeling situation.

 

[Falcon67]

We use ISABC (International Smart *** Building Code) here so it allows for a little more leniency. In section 120 para 6 subsection 2 part b it notes that floor joists need to run parallel to the neighbors fence 2 blocks to the southwest unless no neighbor exists then you must reference the house to the first house to the northeast. But section 142 para 9 subsection 7 part y notes that if no house exists within 5 miles of the house being constructed then all joists must run parallel to the sheeps head on the night of the blood moon. Thankfully it's in town so we have another house to reference and this allows us to change direction since it was not built to proper ISABC code.

I hope your inspectors take bribes in bitcoins.

 

[matt_i]

Sounds like a lot of work, but as mentioned doable. If there's no second floor overhead and it's sort of a "module" that's somewhat separated from the rest of the house, I personally would look at an orderly tear down from the shingles ending at the concrete and rebuild with 2x6 walls all the way back up. I think, in rough estimation, that all the temp supporting would be offset by a fast demo and have drawings/plans plus
a pile of materials on site to be ready to rebuild.

 

[ford33]

You may want to compare the cost of this repair versus the cost of tear down to the foundation and building it back. The termite damage may be more extensive than is known. A new kitchen structure might add greater value to the property. Peace of mind is also worth something.