Floor Joists, is this normal?

[DIY_Guy79]

I'm currently replacing the subfloor in my kitchen the current one was rotted due to the previous owners dishwasher leaking. I've gotten a good section of the subfloor tore out along an exterior wall.

I noticed the floor joists all seem to be no where near the same lengths, many are 2 to 2.5" away from even touching the exterior frame. I thought this was odd and seemed like a ton of structural integrity just pissed away due to sheer laziness by whomever built the house. And I was curious as to how they were attached if not to that outer frame. I started tapping the joists with a hammer. Much to my surprise the joists dont seem to be nailed or screwed anywhere to the outer frame nor that bottom frame they're sitting on as when I tapped them I was able to slightly move them back and forth about 1/4".. Probably more if I wanted to actually move them. They arent rotting. If they were attached in any way I wouldnt have been able to move them that easily. To my knowledge we dont have any structural or foundation issues. Am I wrong to assume that floor joists should be securely attached to the framing of the house? I've only got about 4 feet out from that wall torn out so far, I have no idea if they're attached in the middle or maybe at the opposite side of the garage. I just called a structural company and have them coming to inspect it monday to be sure.

But I'm sure there are plenty of guys on here that may know something about it to let me know what to expect.

Here is a pic of the gap between one of joists and the exterior frame. And to be clear this is an exterior wall. You can clearly see the cinder blocks under the edge of the house, this particular joist is only setting up on the frame by an inch maybe a little more(its definitely the furthest one off). There are no nails or screws where the joist may have been previously held by, just a loose floor joist half *** setting on the exterior frame. And to clarify, some of them are much closer to the frame, within a half inch or so. So its not like a consistent gap which I would think would clearly indicate a structural problem causing the joists and frame to separate:

 

[PCustoms]

just a lose floor joist half *** setting on the exterior frame:

You seem to have nailed it, unlike whomever built that house

What was your question?

 

[DIY_Guy79]

You seem to have nailed it, unlike whomever built that house

What was your question?

Is that normal? Should floor joists be loose or should they be secured to the frame?

 

[PCustoms]

Is that normal? Should floor joists be loose or should they be secured to the frame?

I've never built or seen anything like that. Those joists are sitting on the sill, but we'll short of the rim joist and I don't see anything keeping them upright.

This is normal to me

Unless they're some other framing going on not shown in your image that's wrong IMHO

 

[DIY_Guy79]

Thanks. Should they be screwed or nailed to the rim or the sill?

 

[PCustoms]

Personally I've always done a toe nail or 2 into the sill, and then the rim gets face nailed to each joist. Probably some sort of tie requirement now too, been a few years since I've framed anything from the block up, and Im just an amateur.

 

[PCustoms]

Is the block wall bowed out?

That could explain this, but I don't see anything indicating there was ever a nail there....

 

[WisJim]

What I would do is scab on some short (4' to 6' or so) pieces to the sides of the short joists and toe nail them securely to the rim joist and glue/screw them to the short joists so that everything is securely tied together.

 

[Fcvapor05]

No, that is not normal.

if you're already ripping out subfloor, replace as many as you can.

be careful about nailing to the rim joist- you don't want to puncture whatever moisture barrier is on the other side.

 

[LOW1]

What I would do is scab on some short (4' to 6' or so) pieces to the sides of the short joists and toe nail them securely to the rim joist and glue/screw them to the short joists so that everything is securely tied together.

This is what I would do. Might use joist hangers. And I would check the joists on the other side of the house!

 

[PCustoms]

This is what I would do. Might use joist hangers. And I would check the joists on the other side of the house!

Maybe the other side is 3” too long?

 

[joey1320]

Sister the joists properly, possibly even sandwiching the original one, and attach the new ones to the rim joist via toe nails.

 

[rlitman]

What I would do is scab on some short (4' to 6' or so) pieces to the sides of the short joists and toe nail them securely to the rim joist and glue/screw them to the short joists so that everything is securely tied together.

Same.

Maybe the other side is 3” too long?

LMAO. Well played!

 

[WNYflyer]

Never seen anything like that before. Wonder if the floor joists were used lumber when installed and thus the length was the length. Below is the nailing schedule per our local residential code. Also link to the Oklahoma Residential Building code

https://up.codes/viewer/oklahoma/irc-2015

FWIW, the soil on the exterior of your basement wall puts lateral pressure on the wall and the resultant lateral force at the top of the wall is resisted by the sill anchor bolts embedded into the top of the basement wall. Anchor bolts in turn transmit that lateral force to the sill plates which turn transmit the lateral load into the floor joist & floor diaphragm. Then more often than not you have lateral load coming in from both sides............say E & W basement walls and the lateral force counteract each other. At least that is some of the basic design theory/load paths.


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[wrenchguy]

Maybe the other side is 3” too long?

Maybe, if the rookie framers nailed the joist together at the beam thinking the ends were fastened&done.
OP I'd fasten a 3/4' sister to what you have. On the end of the sister securely fasten a piece of plywood maybe 12" wide. After sister installed to joist, fasten plywood to rim joist. Like others mention not to long fasteners that would break vapor barrier if it has any.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, there maybe Criminal Negligence involved in the original construction.

 

[Larryjones]

Looks like the inspector slept in that day. I'm sure there is a code about how much the end of the joist has to be supported

 

[The Cobbler]

How old a house ?
IMO, anything done to properly correct the issue, and for resale, should have an engineer involved.
We all can come up with ways to correct the issue, but in this day & age we need to cover our butts

 

[wrenchguy]

IMHO, there maybe Criminal Negligence involved in the original construction.

Criminal Negligence!!! For the leaking dishwasher or the short joist???
So whom does he go after all these years? IYHO? Builder, Building inspector, town, county, state, United States of America??? He lives in OK not CA.

 

[PCustoms]

Criminal Negligence!!! For the leaking dishwasher or the short joist???
So whom does he go after all these years? IYHO? Builder, Building inspector, town, county, state, United States of America??? He lives in OK not CA.

Don't mind nadogail too much, he has a lot of humble opinions

 

[oldcarpenter]

My guess is that the joists were uncut and were originally installed that way. Doubt you will ever have any problem with them, how old is the house? If it makes you feel any better sister a short piece of matching lumber to the joists and toe nail to rim joist. Good call by others on staying away from existing vapor barrier. A metal joist hanger would be a waste of time.


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[rburke65]

No...this is not normal. As suggested, sister another joist.

 

[firebirdparts]

Is that normal? Should floor joists be loose or should they be secured to the frame?

Joists are extremely securely fastened on end. It's one of the ways that you prevent them from falling over like dominos.

That's very weird.

 

[larry4406]

Don't mind nadogail too much, he has a lot of humble opinions

Thank you for sharing

 

[Innovate1]

As others have said sister a 3 or 4 ft 2x the size of the joist. The bearing length supporting the joist is minimal but it doesn't appear to have crushed and the sister will help with that. Before you put the piece in attach a short section of plywood to the end so that once it's in place you can attach it to the rim joist. Or you could toe "nail" it although I would use construction screws - banging on nails may move things out of position and, based on this, the other things may not be well secured too. Just me but I wouldn't involve an engineer. Not needed IMHO and if they write up that you need to do something much more complicated (that is perhaps "best practice")that you don't do that paper trail could be an issue down the road.

 

[CraigStu]

...Just me but I wouldn't involve an engineer. Not needed IMHO and if they write up that you need to do something much more complicated (that is perhaps "best practice")that you don't do that paper trail could be an issue down the road.

I agree. I don't know if it's universal all over the US or if it is enforced much but..my understanding is that if you know there is something amiss and don't include it in a sales listing that is fraud. So I'd fix it myself following the suggestions here and I'd be comfortable w/ that so not feel a need to report it.

 

[66cj225]

Something moved, what was it?

 

[JoeMcGov]

As others have said sister a 3 or 4 ft 2x the size of the joist. The bearing length supporting the joist is minimal but it doesn't appear to have crushed and the sister will help with that. Before you put the piece in attach a short section of plywood to the end so that once it's in place you can attach it to the rim joist. Or you could toe "nail" it although I would use construction screws - banging on nails may move things out of position and, based on this, the other things may not be well secured too. Just me but I wouldn't involve an engineer. Not needed IMHO and if they write up that you need to do something much more complicated (that is perhaps "best practice")that you don't do that paper trail could be an issue down the road.

As it's being described in this thread it is actually slant nailing.

 

[Innovate1]

Since you are replacing the flooring I would be concerned about the section you can't easily replace under the walls. If you cut the flooring flush with the wall you will be removing what is connecting the short joists to the rim joist. Better sister the joists before you do that or at least do it a section at a time so you don't have the whole wall disconnected from the joists.

 

[Uncle murph]

Whoever framed the floor cut all their joists short but then used them anyway.If it was my house,I would double or triple the band board until I had something to nail the joists to using the largest pieces possible.You might have to trim some of the joists even more to make a nice fit that you can then toenail.

 

[Innovate1]

As it's being described in this thread it is actually slant nailing.

Isn't it always?

 

[Innovate1]

Whoever framed the floor cut all their joists short but then used them anyway.If it was my house,I would double or triple the band board until I had something to nail the joists to using the largest pieces possible.You might have to trim some of the joists even more to make a nice fit that you can then toenail.

Trim them more? That's just crazy.

 

[p00p]

As it's being described in this thread it is actually slant nailing.

obtuse anchoring?

 

[SundayFunday]

While you have access, add a 2 x 4 to widen the sill plate so it looks more like the picture in PCustoms post. This will add something for the joist to rest on and it will cover the holes in the block. Mice love the hollow blocks!

 

[spudley]

Pretty sure you need at least 1 1/2" minimum bearing on that sill plate to meet code. And of course each joists should be attached to the rim board.
I'd do as suggested, add a 2x4 plate under anything not attached, sister a couple feet of matching joist glued and nailed on to the existing shorties and toenail those into the rim board.
Add blocking in the middle of the joist span if its over 12' between supports.

 

[firebirdparts]

Can you get to any of this to fix it? I am guessing it's not going to be a bit easy.

Add blocking in the middle of the joist span if its over 12' between supports.

This would be quite a desperate need in this case. I am very tempted to conclude the house would have collapsed years ago if it wasn't already blocked or x-braced.

 

[spudley]

Can you get to any of this to fix it? I am guessing it's not going to be a bit easy.

He's ripping out the subfloor which should make access easier.

This would be quite a desperate need in this case. I am very tempted to conclude the house would have collapsed years ago if it wasn't already blocked or x-braced.

Maybe, but you're presuming what a competent builder would have done, and we know a competent builder didn't put those joists in.

 

[cmandp]

I don't think the situation is dire. The house has been standing for how many years? Of course any rot or termites could have compromised the joists quickly with so little bearing. I agree that it was not built right, the joists should go to and be nailed to the rim joist.

As others said glue and nail/screw a section of matching lumber on and toenail to the rim joist. I'd also add to the sill plate with a treated 2x4 but with the price of lumber now I'd probably wait on that.

Interestingly the floor joists for the mansard roof on our house has no rim joist to keep the floor joist from racking/tipping. No bracing and they are a clear span wall to wall. They have plenty of bearing though they sit on a 6" wide plate.

Another side note my brother/sister in laws house was built in the 1960s. They did quite a few things wrong even though they obviously had built many houses before. There are some floor joist that are only hung from nails on one end, no support underneath, no hangers. Still need to get over there and fix that. Not to mention they framed the roof wrong. The ceiling joists run perpendicular to rafters, there was no ridge beam or end supports, nothing to keep the roof from spreading the tops of the walls.

 

[DIY_Guy79]

Thanks for the input guys. So after getting all the floor out that I was replacing, I as far as what i could see, It looks like there were only 4 of them that were too short. They're supported in the middle. I decided against having an engineer come out. The house was built in 2000... Allegedly. I suspect its quite a bit older. Either way, unfortunatly due to plumbing and a crawl space vent I wasnt really able to sister them. Just wasnt room. I cut pieces for the ones that were severely short to fill the gap, glued them directly on the ends Then excessively secured them on each side with some metal braces & 1.5" #10 Power Pro screws.. Then also toe nailed/slant nailed them to the joist with 2.5" #10 Power Pro screws. Then I toenailed the joists to the seal.

To add to this, to support some older subfloor that I wasnt pulling out, I added some cross sections of pressure treated 2x4's between the joists with joist hangers, through the whole length of the kitchen about 18" from the middle support and about 4' from the ends of the joists. I got the joist hangers with the toe nail slots and took advantage of them as well.

 

[PCustoms]

Wonder it that was an old stairwell?