Flooring options for shop

[Chris J]

Hi Folks,

More basic questions and comments. I finally started my garage project this past fall and have learned a number of things along the way, some too late of course.

I spent nearly three years planning this, but still didn't catch everything, and some things I left open and am now facing. One of these is the floor finish.

Once things started moving, they started moving REAL quick. I should have better understood what would be necessary to have a floor like I want, but I don't think it is too late to still accomplish this. HOWEVER, after reading nearly every post on this board about floor options, I now feel like there is no one ideal option regardless of cost.

Someback ground: The garage is in the mountains of Colorado at about 9000' in elevation and UV is plentiful here. Winter outdoor temps can hit 30 below zero (and I've heard of temps even lower), and snow on the ground can last for five month stretches.

The garage is 36'x44' with 10' walls and a radiant slab that is 6" thick (with no slope). The perimeter foundation was formed with 13.5" insulated concrete forms that have an 8" cavity in the center for the concrete. There is an 11'x16'x8" thick sub-slab under the lift area. The entire slab has 6 mil black poly under it, with 2" rigid foam on top of that.

The space is intended to allow for storage of four vehicles in the rear row, and three in the front row allowing for lots of working room around the lift area. As is generally the case, some cars may sit for extended periods of time and some cars may go in and out fairly frequently while the weather is nice. None of the cars will go anywhere during the winter time.

Two of my cars have extensive hydraulic systems, and can be expected to leak. Any car can experience the normal leaking of fluids, but until these hydraulic systems are fully restored (a lengthy process), the leaking could presumably dump a full quart of oil on the floor at various spots around the car (the pressure accumulators hold about a quart). And as is always the case, other fluid spills of any magnitude could occur.

Based on what I have read here, it looks as though none of the flooring choices allows you to forget about spills indefinitely. If you want a pretty floor, you had better be able to clean up a mess quickly, and I just can't guarantee that will get done. Have I got this right?

I would prefer a very light toned grey floor, or possibly a white floor with a very slight warm tint to it. But I get the impression that an epoxy floor is going to fail, it's just a matter of time. Either pulling up (which I expect would be aggravated by the radiant system) or staining is simply going to be a problem. Floor tiles (Racedeck) are very cool, but you can forget getting to the mess under the car quickly. Concrete sealing and staining looks like it has potential, but a light or white finish isn't realistic (is it?), and VCTs have their issues too.

When I get in a situation like this, my tendency is to try to find an interim solution that doesn't reduce my options in the future. I am thinking about going with the VCTs to solve the immediate problem simply because they are relatively cheap and repairs can be made when necessary. I am under the impression that glue can be scraped off later if the decision is made to go to another surface bonded solution in the future. VCTs allow staging and easy coverage of portions of the floor so that not everything has to be pushed out of the garage for an extended period of time, and don't risk getting a mess on cars or other items that may remain in the garage.

Have I got this right? If there are other considerations or options, please share!

The building didn't get fully closed in until mid-December, but the snow was cooperative so I got the important cars inside before they got locked in the snow 'till spring. I put 6 mil poly down on the floor and moved the cars in. The red car is dripping hydraulic oil all around and the poly is keeping it off the concrete (hopefully).

 

[WolverineCoatings]

Hi Chris,

Bill is going to kill me for answering this one... but... i can't help it... lol...

Based on what I have read here, it looks as though none of the flooring choices allows you to forget about spills indefinitely. If you want a pretty floor, you had better be able to clean up a mess quickly, and I just can't guarantee that will get done. Have I got this right?

No... while most epoxies are as you described, there ARE epoxies that have excellent chemical resistance. We make chemical storage tank linings and the coating we have been offering here is actually a derivitive of a tank lining. Tank Linings are actually coatings that are sprayed on the insides of chemical storage tanks to protect the walls from corrosion and degradation. The chemicals in the tank rest directly on the coating.

I would prefer a very light toned grey floor, or possibly a white floor with a very slight warm tint to it. But I get the impression that an epoxy floor is going to fail, it's just a matter of time. Either pulling up (which I expect would be aggravated by the radiant system) or staining is simply going to be a problem. Floor tiles (Racedeck) are very cool, but you can forget getting to the mess under the car quickly. Concrete sealing and staining looks like it has potential, but a light or white finish isn't realistic (is it?), and VCTs have their issues too.

The problem with concrete sealing is that the sealer is going to be even less chemical resistant than an epoxy. Most of those sealers and stains are an acrylic base which has far less adhesion and chemical resistance than a good 2K epoxy system. You can get an acid-stain which works by reacting with the top surface layer but then... you have to seal it. Some people think that using Sodium Silicates and grinding/polishing the concrete seals it but they find out later that the surface is still porous when low surface tension chemicals like oil/hydraulic fluid leak and work their way down into the concrete.

When I get in a situation like this, my tendency is to try to find an interim solution that doesn't reduce my options in the future. I am thinking about going with the VCTs to solve the immediate problem simply because they are relatively cheap and repairs can be made when necessary. I am under the impression that glue can be scraped off later if the decision is made to go to another surface bonded solution in the future. VCTs allow staging and easy coverage of portions of the floor so that not everything has to be pushed out of the garage for an extended period of time, and don't risk getting a mess on cars or other items that may remain in the garage.

Have I got this right? If there are other considerations or options, please share!

The building didn't get fully closed in until mid-December, but the snow was cooperative so I got the important cars inside before they got locked in the snow 'till spring. I put 6 mil poly down on the floor and moved the cars in. The red car is dripping hydraulic oil all around and the poly is keeping it off the concrete (hopefully).

The VCT glue can be scraped but will add considerable work if you change your mind. It sounds like you've done a good job of insulating the slab as much as possibile but I want to throw one more thing at you to consider. When the temperature fluctuates from -30f to ambient there is a HUGE degree of expansion and contraction of the concrete. The radiant heat will really help to minimize that but you probably need to think about what happens when/if the power goes out.

If you go with a proper coating system you'll need to ensure that the primer has a high degree of flexibility and that the body coat is also flexible.

Now, here is the catch... We're suspending sales for DIY applications on March 3rd. Unless you are a quick decision maker you'll have to find another avenue. You would need to decide on products/colors in the next couple of days and place your order by March 3rd.

I understand that most people don't make decisions that fast so I'm not exactly expecting to hear from you. But, at least you know that there are products out there that will do what you want.

 

[Chris J]

Thanks for the reply.

I figured that there must be some types of epoxy that are almost completely chemical resistant becuase I know that these are used to line storage tanks, etc. My concern is that these formulations might be unsuitable for a garage application.

The following is my list of concerns about mis-application of a product:

Storage tanks are generally some type of steel rather than concrete, are they not? These formulations may not bound well with cement.

Storage tanks do not see the sheer loads that a garage floor would see, i.e. tire loads from braking and acceleration. Creeping of the surface would be a concern.

Storage tank formulations are probably "chemical specific", and could work extremely well with some types of fluids, but not necessarily with all things that it might experience in a garage?

There are other lesser concerns too, but the preceding are the biggies.

When you are relatively ignorant (me), you have to proceed carefully (fools go where wise men fear to tread). One of the things I would like to see is a track record of any product in the same application that I intend to use it in. The problem is that, without the track record, I may bypass a product that would actually be perfect for the application.

And, no offense to you, but I would also think that if the corporation felt that these alternative coatings would perform in superior way in this application, they would have been made available even if at a higher cost .

That has been my logic. Some of it may work in my favor, and some of it may work against me. However, I would certainly like to hear counter-arguments.

I do plan to have a back-up source of heat that is not dependant on electricity, in the form of a basic 35K propane wall heater. This won't keep the slab as warm as the radiant system will, but it should keep any negative temp swing limited to an above-freezing temp.

You are also right that it would be very hard for me to make a commitment to a new product within the next week. Sometimes you have just have to hold your nose and jump in, but I'm not to that point yet. But I would sure like to hear additional thoughts and comments!

 

[Jabberwalk]

What kind of chemicals are you worried about? The only thing that affects my coatings are battery acid and brake fluid after 2 hours. Typical oil and transmission fluids do not affect PremierGarage coatings. We install (as a company) about 50k feet of it a day across the country- so it can't be that bad!

 

[Chris J]

Nothing out of the ordinary automotive fluids, other than the hydraulic fluid that a couple of my cars have. I know that most coatings targeted at garages are relatively immune to standard fluids, but I don't know that to be true of the specialty coatings that wolverine was refering to.

I'm can't quickly recall the line that you handle, could you help me out? Part of the problem is that I am certain that any surface I put down will be done by me since I am so far from a metropolitan area of any size. Likewise, anything that has to be fixed will also be by me, and I just don't have the energy to do something of this magnitude twice.

 

[Jabberwalk]

I install PremierGarage coatings. Unfortunately, they are not DIY friendly. Where are you at? I can safely say that you are best to stay away from the box store type coatings. Most of my business is replacing them after they fail- usually 6-12 months after application.

 

[WolverineCoatings]

Hi Chris,

We deal with this kind of skepticism everyday. Let's face it, we are all constantly bombarded by advertising and claims every day that usually prove to be false. I mean, I learned years ago when the GI Joe with the Kung Fu Grip just didn't live up the the commercials.

There are many kinds of chemical storage tanks and most are steel or fiberglass while some are concrete. You can't just take a Tank Lining and put it in your garage because the expansion and contraction of concrete is different from steel or fiberglass. However, formulations can be carefully modified to offer flexibility that will match the expansion and contraction of concrete.

We have products for concrete that are used to line the concrete dikes that surround chemical storage tanks in case of spills. We have some products that will take concentrated Sulfuric Acid (98%) for 96 hours with no effect on concrete. We even make a product to line a storage tank containing 98% sulfuric acid. In garage floor environment, the Sulfuric Acid would evaporate before that time. As far as load, the compressive strength of our coatings are FAR greater than your concrete. Our coatings are used in Industrial Environments where 60,000# rolls of steel or aluminum are carried on forktrucks... Tires are a bit irrelevant to us.

Most companies that make the really quality products don't offer them to the general public. Selling to the DIY market is extremely labor intensive and not matter how good a product is there is only a small percentage of people who are willing to pay a premium price for a premium product. However, you still have to answer the calls and questions from the rest of those people who are looking for the holy grail at the thrift store. In an industrial environment, an engineer has problem that needs to be solved. It's probably 12,000-50,000 square feet which is eqivalent to 10-100 garages on these forums. It takes the same amount of time to make the sale. Then, the engineer will pay a professional to apply it while the DIYer will still have questions that take more time. So, just because a product is good doesn't mean that it makes sense for a company to make it available to the DIY market.

Good Luck with your project and your research. Informed customers are always the best!

 

[wrenchbender]

Hi Chris,
Consider Flexi-Tile, these 20" tiles they have an extremly tight seal which will prevent sepage, and the are not perforated. They are also resistant to most if not all chemicals and oil that you will ever use in your garage. Need more information on this product please contact me and I will be happy to assist you.

Thank you

 

[kwb210]

I install PremierGarage coatings. Unfortunately, they are not DIY friendly. Where are you at? I can safely say that you are best to stay away from the box store type coatings. Most of my business is replacing them after they fail- usually 6-12 months after application.

What kind of price range per square foot does an "installed" floor cost? I've seen the cost to purchase a kit, a bucket, what have you, and DIY. I am really curious of a general price range. You get to a point of doing lots of stuff yourself...then...you decide it's worth hiring a pro to get it done right and painlessly.
THanks,
kurt

 

[Mordi]

I was recently quoted $4.00 per sq ft from Premier Garage.

Hope this helps,
Mordi

 

[kwb210]

I was recently quoted $4.00 per sq ft from Premier Garage.

Hope this helps,
Mordi

Oh it helps (hurts) alot!
Yikes! Looking at the cost for materials in various places, there certainly is a fair amount of room to get the job done on the labor side. I had no idea that the price range was that high. I was hoping for about half of that.
Thank you for the info.

Hey Chris,
Kurt from the finnie list, I thought I had seen those cars before. I am also new to this list and working on my shop. Right now I'm finishing up wiring needs. As the floor covering goes...thinking about DIY more and more. Prep. Prep. Prep.
Good luck and keep us posted.
kurt
(230finnie)

 

[Jabberwalk]

I'm at 3.50 with a 10 year warranty. Every owner sets their own price. $4.00 is about the average out there. Some PG's now offer a lifetime warranty.

 

[JD in DFW]

I was recently quoted $4.00 per sq ft from Premier Garage.

Hope this helps,
Mordi

Not sure what coating system Jabber is using with his Premiere Garage franchise, but the guys here in the DFW area use epoxy with what they call "a high dense polymer clear coat" Not a Jabb at you Jabber, but the PG guys here in my area are your typical bait and switch. I have seen more floor failures with the PG here then I have seen happy customers, and as for price if they know or have the slightest idea that a prospective customer has not done their homework or is not taking any other bids they jack the price way up. I had them quote me once and they were $4.25 ft2 and then had my friend down the road call them two weeks later had him act like he knew nothing about garage floors and he basically told them " your the experts be straight with me" and they quoted him $5.25 ft2!!!
I'd be careful of the big franchise guys....they have to make up that ROI somewhaere...I would not let it be made up on my garage floor if I were you. Plus the PG guys here in Dallas only use acid to prep or I should use the term to lightly etch or acid wash the concrete. If you want a floor coating system that will last the lifetime of the floor go with a company that will diamond grind the floor to virgin concrete, edges and steps as well. Also make them tell you the make up/chemistry of their floor coating system...then research it.
I'm not a big fan of epoxy products...yes they have their place, but with the chemistry that is on the market why would you want to go with an old outdated product, when for just a few dollars more you can have a system that will last and give you trouble free service and wont peel, delaminate or fade with the UV hitting it. It will cost more with this kind of floor prep and material make up...but replacing a $1700-$2500 epoxy floor will cost you way more after the fact..... "The most expensive garage floor you'll ever have is the one that fails and has to be replaced in only a few years"

Jabber, Please do not think my comments were directed at you or your business, not a knock on you at all. I have no idea how you do things in your market, I can only comment on my personal experience with the Premiere Garage guys in my area, I'm sure you run a clean and honest business.

Good luck with your research Chris.

 

[Jabberwalk]

No offense taken chris. I hope you also are not offended with my reply. It is not a personal stab at you. I have to say every PG is individually owned and operated. I hate to hear that you have had a bad experience , but it does not reflect the company as a whole. I would say the majority of PG's do diamond grind- I sold many of them their HTC grinders! As I said in another post- we install about 50k feet of product a day! It is NOT an epoxy. I don't want someone who passes by to look at your post and assume PG is garbage based solely on your comments. (I do understand this was your experience only in the DFW area) I have had 2 floor failures in the beginning also. I took full responsibly and made the floors right. I end result was referrals from both customers. My product is not for everyone and I understand not everyone will be happy with PG. I joined this forum not to "sell" everyone on PG but to dispel some rumors and maybe spread some tips to others.
Cheers Chris!

Jason

 

[thegarageguy]

I dont know if you know this Jabber, but what PG sells you is relabeled Polyurea, made from a company in Arizona (dont want to promote them)exclusively for PG and called "hybrid polymer". If you want to know who Jabber, you can PM me. They used to sell it to dealers but now only sell and relabel for PG. The reason for your early failures could be, im guessing was because of the acid etching prep PG taught you. Just a guess. The reason why I rarely sell and install and all polyurea system is that I find them great only and new, well poured surfaces. Polyurea goes on so thin that a floor with heavy trowel marks or cracks may show or actually highlight those areas with its shine. Also, its tough to get a full broadcast without patchyness. At least that was my experience. I actually like using polyurea for my top coat for my chip and quartz floors.

Maybe I'll try to defend the reason for two different prices. You see all concretes are different and require different approches. Could it be that your neighbors floor was either;
heavily spalled?
painted?
had major cracks?
heavily oiled?

My estimates all depend on how much prep work I need and it does affect the sqft price.

Again this is all a guess. I'm guessing since PG is a franchise, they should have a standard sqft price. again, some variables could affect the bottom line price.

I had a client contact me once, upset that he found out he paid more than their freind. But after I'm done, they forget how ****** their floor was and the amount of time it took to prep and patch properly.

Just for the record my services cost:

water based clear or soilid 2 layer (rolled on)system - $1.50-$2
water based primer and 100% soild base, clear or solid - $3
3 layer 100% solids - $4
Chip system with Polyurea top coat $6
Quartz system (top coat depends on application) $8
Resurface w/ (cement and urathane) plus chip or quartz top coats $10



I can do it cheaper by cutting corners, like adding xylene to thin it out and or rolling it on, using water based products and or lightly and sporadically spread chips. But then I couldnt guarantee it.

You get what you pay for.

 

[kwb210]

Thegarageguy prcing breakdown was VERY informative. And I guess a sq ft estimate should be different on nearly every job, different condition affecting prep time and then what kind of finish does the customer want, or think he wants(!).
Thanks for the honest info guys.

 

[thegarageguy]

Forgot to mention, but sometimes potential clients have a sealer on their concrete. If this is the case, I charge $1 per sqft more to remove it. Sometimes its such a pain in the a@! to break the seal. I have my machines sometimes glide over it like its on ice with 100lb weight and nothing. I sometimes have my guys prep the whole floor on their knees with a hilti dg 150. That machine is an animal but is only a 7" grinder. All surfaces are different and require different approches. Thats why I'm weary of DYI kits and acid etching.

 

[wrenchbender]

Hi Kurt;
Interested in PVC tiles? 20" square, Diamond Plate or Raised Coin design starting from $2.50 sq ft. Why less than the others...no middle men!
Our product is used by many OEM in their factory's, I can send you photographs if you wish.
Let me know if you are interested.
Cheers
Roger

 

[kwb210]

Hi Kurt;
Interested in PVC tiles? 20" square, Diamond Plate or Raised Coin design starting from $2.50 sq ft. Why less than the others...no middle men!
Our product is used by many OEM in their factory's, I can send you photographs if you wish.
Let me know if you are interested.
Cheers
Roger

Thanks for the offer, I have my mind set on a coating. Great web site, love those work benches. Wow.

 

[henryr]

I'm at 3.50 with a 10 year warranty. Every owner sets their own price. $4.00 is about the average out there. Some PG's now offer a lifetime warranty.

can u do work down in atlanta ?

 

[Jabberwalk]

can u do work down in atlanta ?

Sorry- I only go down as far as Chattanooga. You can call and talk to Ken in Atlanta who will be glad to take care of you. 678-906-2900

 

[henryr]

i have several contacts in the auto service biz that have used HD for both their commercial and home applications. the guy down the street owns several highline service centers and he swears by it also. yet everytime i speak to PG, they claim to be spending half their time redoing HD's work........

 

[Jabberwalk]

i have several contacts in the auto service biz that have used HD for both their commercial and home applications. the guy down the street owns several highline service centers and he swears by it also. yet everytime i speak to PG, they claim to be spending half their time redoing HD's work........

Over half my work is the same= replacing other companies coatings.