fluorescent light wiring question.

[Los_Control]

Sometimes free cost more then buying new.

1 block away they were giving away some 4' fluorescent lights that were removed from a school.
There must have been a pile of 30 or 40 there ... I took 4.
All the light tubes were gone, almost 1/2 were missing the ballast. I am thinking whoever removed the lights, took a good stash of spare parts for self.

My question is, do these lights still need a starter?
There is too many loose wires for lights wired in a series and afraid something else is missing also.

I have 2 yellow, 2 red, 1 black 1 white. All are loose and need connected and I do not have the wiring instructions. I would think I would only need to connect the black & white to make them work,
Do I have a pile of tin for the scrap pile, can they be converted to led?

 

[tonyciambrone]

Just get direct wire LED tubes and wire accordingly. Very simple to do, probably 100 threads about it...

 

[Charlie K]

Either convert to LED or follow the wiring diagram on the ballast. It tells you everything you need to know.

 

[Los_Control]

Just get direct wire LED tubes and wire accordingly. Very simple to do, probably 100 threads about it...

Good enough, I appreciate your thoughts. I never was aware of the possibility of conversion until I saw a thread here a few weeks ago and again today.
I have done no research on them. And since I feel like I am already missing something I should start fresh.

I only have a 10x22 garage with 2 60 watt light bulb. 2, 4' fluorescent would be 1000% improvement.
I can purchase the tubes at my local Ace hardware ... LED I suspect will have to order on line. Worried if they will arrive in working condition.
A trip to Home depot is a 2 hour drive 1 way.

I really would just like to go fluorescent so can buy replacement parts local. Am I really missing parts on what I have?

 

[Los_Control]

Either convert to LED or follow the wiring diagram on the ballast. It tells you everything you need to know.

Yes sir you are correct, I put on my glasses and see the wiring diagram on the ballast ... Still scratching my head on why the wiring is such a mess, and all 4 of them are the same way .... made me think I was missing something.

 

[cybrdyke]

What's the model # on that ballast?
CD

 

[Los_Control]

What's the model # on that ballast?
CD

I do not see a actual model # There is a Cat No. REL-4P32-RH-TP

Advance electronics
120 volts
60 hertz .90 amps
Good for 3 or 4 T8 48" 32 watt bulbs. or other options I need 2 48" T8.

I also see they are good for 50 degrees or above. There are a few times a year they would get below 50, not often.

I really do not consider I have a garage, I have a house built in 1948 and the attached garage is a tool crib. I store the tools inside and I work under the carport outside.
I do not need the most advance lighting system, just trying to replace a 60 watt light bulb.

 

[cybrdyke]

I do not see a actual model # There is a Cat No. REL-4P32-RH-TP

There should be 2 blue wires.

I'll help you rewire it, but I need to figure out what you got going on there.
CD

 

[Phantomd]

I really like the Hyperikon lights I got from amazon. They are direct wire compatible. I've installed 500 bulbs at my work and re-wired every fixture. Eliminate the ballast and the lights will last a very very long time without maintenance.

These are the ones I used. Looks like COVID has hurt their manufacturing?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SSNPI80/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Los_Control]

There should be 2 blue wires.

I'll help you rewire it, but I need to figure out what you got going on there.
CD

Going to show a different light, wiring is more complete ... I have 4 of them.

One photo you see I have 2 blue wires and going to 2 different bulbs, kinda self explanatory. They also added jumper wires to the blue ones running up front.
A brown and a yellow.
I assume this was a union electrician as these lights came from a JR High school.
Just Color is wrong.

The next photo shows the brown & white wires twisted together to keep them together ... not connected to each other just separate from the bunch. This is where I am getting confused.
I assume the black is power, white is neutral, the 4 yellows go together ...
Is it possible the jumper wires are to control individual lights and not needed?
These were installed in a school gymnasium with a stage on one end and podium on the other ... for a school play they may have wanted to dim some lights and control separate?

 

[cybrdyke]

Going to show a different light, wiring is more complete ... I have 4 of them.

One photo you see I have 2 blue wires and going to 2 different bulbs, kinda self explanatory. They also added jumper wires to the blue ones running up front.

Sorry, but I dont see a photo showing the blue wires. I want to see which lamps had blue wires and which lamps had red.

A brown and a yellow.
I assume this was a union electrician as these lights came from a JR High school.
Just Color is wrong.

The next photo shows the brown & white wires twisted together to keep them together ... not connected to each other just separate from the bunch. This is where I am getting confused.

I see this photo. All those bunched up wires will be removed.

I assume the black is power, white is neutral, the 4 yellows go together ...

Yes, black is power, white is neutral. The yellows will need to get sorted out.

Is it possible the jumper wires are to control individual lights and not needed?
These were installed in a school gymnasium with a stage on one end and podium on the other ... for a school play they may have wanted to dim some lights and control separate?

No, these fixtures were either all ON or all OFF and not dimmable or controllable.
A picture of the sockets with red & blue would be great.
CD

 

[Los_Control]

I apologize, here is the photo, 2 blue and 2 red coming from ballast.
One light socket has 2 blue wires, other has 2 red wires..
There is 1 blue wire from ballast going to each tube.
The 2 red wires from ballast have the jumper wires added to them. They terminate where the yellow, black, white wires terminate in the other photo above.
The other end of the ballast has 2 yellow wires, black, white coming from it.
Both tubes sockets are yellow wires on that end.

So I am guessing they had 50-60 lights in the gymnasium, was lit up like daylight.
When they wanted to put on a play and do theater ... they had a different switch to turn some or 1/2 the lights off. Not a actual dimmer switch. And they broke into the yellow wires also for this connection besides the jumper wires?

The photo from other link above shows 4 yellow wire coming from ballast + the yellow and brown jumper wires.
There is only 2 wires and there has been added 2 more yellow jumper wires there.

If I were to remove all the extra jumper wires, there would be 2 yellow wires and they would get connected.
Black & white wires and we know where they go.
Only question would be what to do with the 2 red wires? Do they get wire nutted together?

 

[Bert_]

I'm a little confused. You have 4 lamp ballasts but appear to be 2 lamp fixtures?

Those ballasts are either all on or all off. If there were two ballasts per fixture they could do 50% dimming. Or turn off every other fixture.

 

[Bert_]

I wonder if they were wired in tandem? With one ballast serving two fixtures.

 

[Los_Control]

I'm a little confused. You have 4 lamp ballasts but appear to be 2 lamp fixtures?

Those ballasts are either all on or all off. If there were two ballasts per fixture they could do 50% dimming. Or turn off every other fixture.

I hope you understand why I feel so silly with these lights. The existing wiring makes me confused.

The ballast say right on them for 3 or 4 tube lights .... these are 2 tube fixtures.

With all the jumper wires coming off of the ballast, I was totally confused what was going on ... think I may have scrap tin.

Same time they came from a school. Would be union electricians wiring this up.
In my original post above, I said over 1/2 the lights were missing ballast ... I blamed the person removing them took them for spares?
Is it possible the ballast were changed and wired up to run 2 sets of lights ... 4 tubes?

Today I would think that this thread has gone further then it should ... just run down to Ace hardware and pick up 2 new lights.
Same time my curiosity is awake and I wonder how they were wiring these lights.

 

[Bert_]

I hope you understand why I feel so silly with these lights. The existing wiring makes me confused.

The ballast say right on them for 3 or 4 tube lights .... these are 2 tube fixtures.

With all the jumper wires coming off of the ballast, I was totally confused what was going on ... think I may have scrap tin.

Same time they came from a school. Would be union electricians wiring this up.
In my original post above, I said over 1/2 the lights were missing ballast ... I blamed the person removing them took them for spares?
Is it possible the ballast were changed and wired up to run 2 sets of lights ... 4 tubes?

Today I would think that this thread has gone further then it should ... just run down to Ace hardware and pick up 2 new lights.
Same time my curiosity is awake and I wonder how they were wiring these lights.

I'd say these were originally T12 with one ballast per fixture. When they were converted to T8 they used 4 lamp ballasts and each ballast ran two fixtures. Was probably cheaper.

If you want to use what you have you could wire it to overdrive the lamps. Both reds to a lamp and both blues to a lamp. One yellow to each lamp. It will run the lamps about 1 1/2 times normal brightness with slightly shorter lamp life.

 

[cybrdyke]

Yes, they have been retrofitted at some point. They were 2 lamp T12 with one ballast in each fixture and now they're master/slave format with a 4 lamp ballast running two fixtures. That's why the blues and reds are weird and that's also why the brown is wired to the yellows.
The sockets, therefore, are non-shunted.
To retrofit these with ballast bypass tubes, you should order tubes that are "double-end powered". They'll be easy to find as they are the most common style.
Referring to your 3rd picture. Connect the two blue wires from the socket and the two red wires from the socket to your incoming black wire. You can put all 5 wires into one wire nut if you want. That end is done.
Referring to your 1st picture, you have too many yellow wires there. Some of them need to go. It might not be easy to remove them from the sockets without pulling the socket, so we'll go an easier route. Cap off the two long yellow wires separately with small wire nuts. They'll be hot, so they need to be capped. It would be better if they were removed, but if that's too difficult, then just cap them. Cut the two yellow wires that jumper from socket to socket right in the middle. Strip them and connect all four ends to the white wire from your incoming supply. You're all done.
Good luck,
CD

 

[Los_Control]

I'd say these were originally T12 with one ballast per fixture. When they were converted to T8 they used 4 lamp ballasts and each ballast ran two fixtures. Was probably cheaper.

If you want to use what you have you could wire it to overdrive the lamps. Both reds to a lamp and both blues to a lamp. One yellow to each lamp. It will run the lamps about 1 1/2 times normal brightness with slightly shorter lamp life.

I am sure you are 100% correct. Makes perfect sense. Explains why so many of the lights were missing ballast. Guessing maybe about 1960 the school was built, and over the years upgraded from T-12 > T-8
This explains kinda, why I was so lost on the existing wiring ... More advanced then basic wiring I am use to.

Options .....
One reason to use the lights, They are very well built. The metal is 20 gauge ... I can use it for patch panels on my truck.
The $30 lights at local store are flippy floppy made out of beer cans and garbage.

A: I do not understand the over powering of the lights. I do not know what the risk are, What the weak areas are, what gauge wire I should use ... A good electrician would be fine with this ... that does not describe me.

B: I have 4 lights, I think I only want to use 2, I am thinking I could just remove ballast from 1 and wire them like the electricians did?

C: Consider and research the direct wire led upgrade. Eliminate the ballast.

Questions.
Option B, I have plenty of 12/2 wire for power, I do not have any single strand copper wire to jumper the lights together. I do have multi strand automotive wire ... what AWG would be needed?

Option C: ... GOD kicks in (grumpy old dude) I don't know about it, I don't care about it, life is to short to spend researching light bulbs. LED? you mean those **** holes driving down the road with those bright lights that blind you?
Those LED's, do they emit those radio frequency the aliens from outer space follow?
$10 for a light bulb? put that thing back on the shelf, not buying a house!
Some people really should not go to town.
My wife is very happy to leave me at home.
God save the world, looks like option C is correct answer.

 

[tonyciambrone]

10/2 12/2 14/2 doesn't matter as long as the breaker is sized accordingly.. automotive wire is a no-no. Insulation not rated appropriately

Most common circuit for lighting is going to be a 15A breaker, 14awg wire. If you've got a bunch of 12/2 that's fine as well as long as it's on a 20A breaker or smaller.

If you need to jumper anything...and I don't think you do...you have plenty of wire leftover from eliminating the ballast. The light fixture will not know or understand the difference between red blue or yellow colored wire.

You are literally going to take the black 'hot wire' and tie it to one side's 'set' of tombstones. The white 'neutral' wire goes to the other side. Ground goes to the metal body of the fixture. Tubes go in between the two sets of tombstones and the switch goes in the on position.

 

[Los_Control]

10/2
If you need to jumper anything...and I don't think you do...you have plenty of wire leftover from eliminating the ballast. The light fixture will not know or understand the difference between red blue or yellow colored wire.

The photo will show where one light will go. Will be hanging in this general location from chains, eliminate existing light and run a pig tail to the new light ... simple.

The 2nd light would be on the other side of my attic shelf in front of the door.
Standard 8' overhead garage door. Light will be hanging above the door so worthless when door is open. But when the door is closed on cooler days, this is a dark cave and impossible to work in.
I would run my "jumper" wires from first light, along the rafters with staples. This would make the run about 15'? this may be a big issue and the ballast may not handle that long of a run? <---- this bothers me.

Problem with living in a small town West Texas, only thing close by is other small towns.
Nobody wants to ship individual led lights, have to buy a case for $300.
All I have found close by so far are these. I wonder if they would be compatible with direct wiring, going to have to research. I can buy these for $16 each local.

https://www.shelllumber.com/eti-542...vac-t8-bulb-1800-lumens-50000-hr-10-pack.html

Otherwise I think I will just get on ebay and order 2 new correct ballast. This way I can keep and use the good heavy duty fixtures I have.

 

[u2slow]

Problem with living in a small town West Texas, only thing close by is other small towns.
Nobody wants to ship individual led lights, have to buy a case for $300.
All I have found close by so far are these. I wonder if they would be compatible with direct wiring, going to have to research. I can buy these for $16 each local.

https://www.shelllumber.com/eti-542...vac-t8-bulb-1800-lumens-50000-hr-10-pack.html

Otherwise I think I will just get on ebay and order 2 new correct ballast. This way I can keep and use the good heavy duty fixtures I have.

I recycle old (free) fixtures for all my shop lighting so far. And I also keep looking for better old/cheap fixtures to upgrade to. Lots of folks are caught up in the LED stuff and junking perfectly good fluorescents. Having extra fixtures increases your spare parts pool.

For new parts/tubes, I use amazon or other online suppliers, because ebay usually has cost-prohibitive freight to Canada. For LED replacement tubes... I pre-ordered some through a supplier in the city, to line up with other appts/errands I have to go in for occasionally anyway.

 

[cybrdyke]

I would run my "jumper" wires from first light, along the rafters with staples. This would make the run about 15'? this may be a big issue and the ballast may not handle that long of a run? <---- this bothers me.

No issue.
The new ballast number for 4 T8 lamps will be ICN4P32N. Max lead length from ballast to lamp, all colors, is 20' .

Problem with living in a small town West Texas, only thing close by is other small towns.
Nobody wants to ship individual led lights, have to buy a case for $300.
All I have found close by so far are these. I wonder if they would be compatible with direct wiring, going to have to research. I can buy these for $16 each local.

https://www.shelllumber.com/eti-542...vac-t8-bulb-1800-lumens-50000-hr-10-pack.html

Otherwise I think I will just get on ebay and order 2 new correct ballast. This way I can keep and use the good heavy duty fixtures I have.

That's sheer robbery. Those are $8 lamps.
CD

 

[Bert_]

I'd either go direct wire led bulbs or wire the ballasts for overdrive. All you would have to do is match the colors from the ballast to the fixture. You don't have to run heavier wires or anything. The bulb life is a little shorter but you get more light and much better cold weather performance. Kind of like a high output fixture but with cheaper lamps.

 

[nadogail]

LED Lamps should (with very high probability) last for years while giving you the most light per watt.

 

[Los_Control]

sure hope you are not getting tired of me yet I really do appreciate all the helpful and professional advice here.

In a attempt to prove I am not a total idiot, I post a picture to show I am
I am a retired on disability remodel carpenter. This particular job we had added 2" foam to existing siding and new stucco. Sparky I had been working with almost 10 years at this point. He did the complicated solar panel box and safety features, I did all the box/wire extensions, grunt work... photo I was hanging all the exterior lighting back up. I know over the past 25 years I have at least 10-15 total kitchen/bath re-wires under my belt that inspectors have looked at and never a issue.

I bought this house built in 1948 because all I could afford on my disability. Paid cash for cheap house.
First thing I did was re-wire the garage so I had a work space ... next was to replace all the cast iron drains under the house underneath the back patio and 120' to the street. Dug it all by hand, we pooped in a bucket for 2 weeks but working fine for 2 years now.
Next I rebuilt existing kitchen cabinets & built new ones to complete the kitchen. Everyone says ooh & aaah when they see them. I am very good at tile or drywall.

Point is, I am a carpenter, not a plumber or electrician. have installed many lights over the years. Including florescent new out of the box.
I never even heard about changing florescent to led until a few days ago.

Today I bought a few Phillips instant fit T12 16 watt led replacement lights.
No re-wiring required, they work with electronic or magnetic ballast plug & play.

I think direct wire is known to be best option.
My new questions ... can all led be used for direct wire ... or do they have to specify it?

Some youtube vids show with ballast you get a increase in brightness, while no ballast you lose a bit.
Can all led be run direct, if not how can you tell from the instructions?
Can I just wire direct and see if it works? Without burning down the house?

I have T8 ballast for 4 lights, they used the blue wires to run that light, then they jumped the red wires from ballast to run the next light.
What happens if I dead end wire nut the 2 red wires from ballast. Just run off 1/2 of it ... will it explode?

To use my fixtures with Ace bulbs, I will buy new ballast if needed ... trying to put together something that works ... Ace does not even stock these bulbs for sale. Just what they are using for their own lighting. They will go back to the store room and grab a few and sell.

 

[Innovate1]

They need to state direct wire to work without the ballast. The usual term is "ballast bypass". They should be fairly easy to find. The big box stores didn't carry them at first but people are saying they carry them now. The T8 ballast bypass bulbs can be used in T12 fixtures - the sockets are the same pin spacing.

 

[cybrdyke]

Today I bought a few Phillips instant fit T12 16 watt led replacement lights.
No re-wiring required, they work with electronic or magnetic ballast plug & play.

Those lamps work with a few electronic or magnetic ballasts that are designed for T12 lamps. They will NOT work with the electronic T8 ballasts that you have. Nor will they work without the ballast. You should probably return them.
Here is the compatibility chart for them. Check page 19. https://www.assets.signify.com/is/content/Signify/Assets/philips-lighting/united-states/20201001-plt-instantfit-ballast-compatibility-guide.pdf

I think direct wire is known to be best option.
My new questions ... can all led be used for direct wire ... or do they have to specify it?

No, all LED can NOT be used for direct wire. Whatever product you choose will say something like: ballast bypass, type B, or direct wire .

Some youtube vids show with ballast you get a increase in brightness, while no ballast you lose a bit.
Can all led be run direct, if not how can you tell from the instructions?
Can I just wire direct and see if it works? Without burning down the house?

The youtube videos that you refer to are incorrect. There is no truth in that statement.
You can tell from the instructions if the tube will work with or without the ballast by looking at the wiring diagram. If it will work with the ballast, there will be a ballast in the wiring diagram. If it's a bypass tube, then there wont be a ballast in the diagram.
I have seen several fires caused by installing ballast bypass tubes into fixtures that still have the ballasts installed. So, yes, you will burn your house down.

I have T8 ballast for 4 lights, they used the blue wires to run that light, then they jumped the red wires from ballast to run the next light.
What happens if I dead end wire nut the 2 red wires from ballast. Just run off 1/2 of it ... will it explode?

They're not rated for that. But what would happen?
If you run just two fluorescent lamps on a 4 lamp ballast, they will burn extremely bright and hot and will not last nearly as long as they're supposed to. If you did it with LED tubes, they'll certainly overheat and wont last very long. Not sure if they'll burn.

To use my fixtures with Ace bulbs, I will buy new ballast if needed ... trying to put together something that works ... Ace does not even stock these bulbs for sale. Just what they are using for their own lighting. They will go back to the store room and grab a few and sell.

Not sure what you mean by Ace bulbs. Do you mean the Philips tubes you referred to above? If so, you would need a 2 lamp T12 ballast. At this point, though there is no good reason to put a ballast in to use those tubes. Return those lamps and get decent ballast bypass tubes and wire them in as I previously described. That would make the most sense.
Good luck,
CD

 

[Los_Control]

Those lamps work with a few electronic or magnetic ballasts that are designed for T12 lamps. They will NOT work with the electronic T8 ballasts that you have. Nor will they work without the ballast. You should probably return them.
Here is the compatibility chart for them. Check page 19. https://www.assets.signify.com/is/content/Signify/Assets/philips-lighting/united-states/20201001-plt-instantfit-ballast-compatibility-guide.pdf


Not sure what you mean by Ace bulbs. Do you mean the Philips tubes you referred to above? If so, you would need a 2 lamp T12 ballast. At this point, though there is no good reason to put a ballast in to use those tubes. Return those lamps and get decent ballast bypass tubes and wire them in as I previously described. That would make the most sense.
Good luck,
CD

I sure wish we had a like button or a way to rate and show extra thanks for the answers here.
All these answers in this thread have been excellent and I really appreciate everyone here for that.
I feel Like I have learned a bunch about things I knew nothing about.

What I mean by "Ace bulbs" I want or need something I can purchase at the local Ace hardware store.
The led bulbs I purchased, the case specified T12 & T8, when case is opened and get them home. Individual bulbs are labeled T12.
Seems clear they are not compatible with my ballast.
I think the case was ordered for the stores personal use to use for spares on stores lighting .... They just opened the case and sold me a couple.

Main thing is, I am no longer confused when I look at the wiring on my existing lights.
I know what, when, why & how they wired them ... I know what I need to do use them.

I will return the led, pickup 4 T18 florescent bulbs and a 50' roll of 18 gauge wire. I need to check my stash of romex connectors, I do need a cover for the metal box when I remove existing light.
In the past when using jumper wires and 1 color of wire, I always had a sharpie in my bags and would color 2" of the wire to help with color code.
I have plenty of chain to hang the lights, no fancy brackets but lots of steel and a welder.
I simply have the job completed in my mind, every step of the way.

When I was working remodel. A wise man told me, never start a job you have not completed in your mind.

Weather is pretty decent 90's right now, have several weeks perfect for painting. I do not "need" the lights just yet. Soon will be in the 50's and have to close the doors to work.
Just trying to get my work truck back on the road.

 

[tonyciambrone]

This has been made complicated beyond my wildest dreams