For all you smart guys

[1930]

History: Im adding a paint system to my shop so that I can mix my own paints and hopefully save money and the convenience of being able to do that. Not the best paint line but by far not the worst either in my experience.

My deal that I signed up for included as a startup package half cans of toner.....not to sound negative but being the apprehensive untrusting S.O.B that I can often times be Id like to measure the different toners and see if they shorted me some. I have no idea how they measured off the paint but by the looks of the spillage and by my quick dip a stick measurements that Ive taken on some of the tints Id guess that they poured off another can and just got everything by eye to the halfway mark.

Id also suggest a possibility that each and every toner can is just a bit shy in their favor.

I have not paid the 2 grand bill yet and before doing so Id like to know that I am getting exactly what I am paying for within reason.

Not trying to be a **** and if somes a wee bit more and somes a wee bit less than Ok I am satisfied.

I have a mixing scale and assuming Ill have that hooked up tomorrow for use, I can get the empty can weight easy enough so my question is......should their be a variation of weight between cans of different colored tints?

Im not to bright but Im guessing that one toner might just weigh more than another cause of something called density or sumpthinorother.

If this is the case than I guess I will realistically have no way of making sure I didnt get the shaft here without spending a whole lot of time ( time is money ) trying to figure out each and every tints volume weight. Cant get into a career of this.

Thanks

 

[gungatim]

there will always be some variation of fill, no filling machine is perfect. that said, I have no idea the weight or SG of the various toners, so it would be pretty difficult to know what ** ounces of toner A should weigh vs. Toner B...

 

[Kaizen]

interesting question. can't help you but I would say to call the sales person that got the commission on your deal and voice your feelings and have him do something to make you feel ok about taking their setup. not a good way to start a relationship.

 

[Cyberbear]

First you'll need to determine the percentage of accepted variance about the amount of toner you can expect to receive from your supplier. Use this percentage and received can fill weight and do the math to verify if the amount received falls within the accepted percentage parameters. This should answer you questions, and armed with that information you can verify the suppliers furnished amounts as being short fills or not.

 

[Bill Bowman]

there will always be some variation of fill, no filling machine is perfect. That said, i have no idea the weight or sg of the various toners, so it would be pretty difficult to know what ** ounces of toner a should weigh vs. Toner b...

this ^^^^^^^^

 

[maxpower_hd]

Well I think I would be happy as long as each can is about the same liquid level. The paints I have bought aren't sold by weight they are sold by volume so the measurement should be by level in the can. A pint is a pint and a gallon is a gallon no matter what the density. If it is only a hair off per can I wouldn't be worried but if there is a large discrepancy from one can to another that is a different story.

I would think reducers, thinners, activators, etc would weigh less than pigmented paint just because they are mostly solvents as opposed to color. You can look at the MSDS (SDS) and get the specific gravity as compared to water in a ratio, something like 1.2 for example. That would mean it weighs 1.2 times that of water per gallon. Water is 8.34 lb/gallon. But what you may find is you have a range for SG because of the differing weights for the different colored paints so you may still be out of luck getting accurate weights.

I myself would venture to guess that when they pour half cans they are leaving a half can for another kit. So what you should realistically see is some that are a bit more and some that are a bit less than half cans. You may need to pour into a paint cup to get actual measurements and also keep in mind that not 100% of the paint is going to come out of the can anyway. If you have a clean empty can you could fill it with water with a measured half pint and compare that level to the product. I'm also guessing the pint, quart or gallon cans are a little more than capacity to leave a small amount of head space for expansion.

Good luck. I am curious to find out how you make out.

 

[Stuart in MN]

There should be a weight listed on the can label, so you can tell by weighing it on your scale how close it is to half full.

 

[1930]

There should be a weight listed on the can label, so you can tell by weighing it on your scale how close it is to half full.

Thanks for everyones response, maybe I worded what I initially posted, I am not mad, upset or the least bit disgusted however I have learned that I need to babysit nearly every transaction I do with other people because human tendency is typically to do whats best for their party.

I logged on to mention that after some thought I went to the local paint store that carries the same paint and sure enough they have a full back-up of every tint that I have so out of curiosity I checked a couple against one another on the scale and as I had thought density of the material comes into play, metallic versus solid pigment also makes a big difference.

I also looked at the cans and they all give a measurement on the label of .946 liters. Assuming then that these cans should weigh .473 liters, I have no idea wether or how to make my scale measure liters, it prob. does this but it may be easier just to convert that into ounces somehow, ( my scale is set up for this out of the box I believe ) measure an empty can and figure that into the equation.

I guess it should be that easy??

 

[My Old Tools]

Liters is a measure of volume, like gallons. Your scale won't do that. If you need weight it will be grams, kilograms, ounces (not liquid ounces), or pounds.

 

[dmw16]

Are the cans full to the very top when they are sold as "full"? If not, you'd need to know how far short of the top full is before you can even eyeball if they are "half full".

Also curious if you've just reached out to the supplier and discussed your concerns with them?

I don't have a good biases of what this toner costs per can, but assuming they did short you just a little you may want to consider your time, effort, and aggravation before you go after that for whatever that amount is.

 

[1930]

Liters is a measure of volume, like gallons. Your scale won't do that. If you need weight it will be grams, kilograms, ounces (not liquid ounces), or pounds.

I see that now

 

[1930]

Are the cans full to the very top when they are sold as "full"? If not, you'd need to know how far short of the top full is before you can even eyeball if they are "half full".

Also curious if you've just reached out to the supplier and discussed your concerns with them?

I don't have a good biases of what this toner costs per can, but assuming they did short you just a little you may want to consider your time, effort, and aggravation before you go after that for whatever that amount is.

At this point I have done nothing other than investigation to see where I am at and if its worth pursuing. I took 10 random cans from my shipment and weighed them again the identical full cans of tint at my paint supply store using their scale and this what I have come up with, everything is measured in grams on the scale.

 

[1930]

Not sure how to proceed, if I take half of the first can upper left corner which measurement is 989.7 full and divide that by two than I get 494. Seems like they gave me too much but that makes no sense cause if I dip a stick in the two cans I get considerably less than half a can

 

[logical]

You bought a volume of liquid correct? So get a "graduated beaker" and pour a can into the beaker.....it will tell you how much you actually got.

You can't go by how full the can is, you don't know how oversize the can is. And weight of the contents does you no good if you don't know the density of the liquid.

 

[shortykorte]

As stated earlier. A "full" can is probably not 100% of a cans true volume. Also you are kind of mixing apples and oranges with weight vs volume. Since you now have a good weight sample of full and half full, I would use weight as your future measuring stick. If the weight is within an acceptable weight for you it's a good can.

I do agree with you and ensure each can is within an acceptable tolerance. Like you say, unfortunately we live in a greedy, selfish world now and integrity is a four letter word.

As far as the overage, you can use that to paint your fellow Floridians cars for them.

p.s. Have you been to the GJ Florida Chapter thread yet?

 

[Motorhead Extraordinaire]

Talk to your rep. Make sure your relationship is solid. Check out a few cans and move on. You may be worrying about mouse nuts.

 

[countryroad82]

First off I will say I feel the Matrix system is one of the best bang for the buck systems out there. I use their clears extensively and recently on my overall jobs I've been using their color and have been impressed. My only qualm with their system is they don't have a VIN matching system as of yet which you know as well as me there can be a dozen different alternates to one stupid color. Yes if you know how to blend you can make due with the standard but it's nice to have something closer because it's just so much less material you have to use.

But to the question at hand. As you've stated you can't go by weight due to some pigments are higher in solids than others. So if you want to pursue the matter, the only other thing I can think of you could do to be right and let your supplier know they could have shorted you (but also they will know they may have overpoured in your favor on some) is get your rep out to your shop, go ahead and have a series of mixing sticks marked for the halfway point of the cans. Open each and every can in front of your rep and let them know how much you have been shorted or gained and see where you can meet an agreement. If you have a good supplier, they should make it right on either the next order or fix it then. But keep in mind they may say since ** toner has X amount and ** toner costs *** we kinda even ourselves out.

Just a thought or 2. But that's about the only way I can think that you can tell whether you've been screwed or not.

 

[1930]

You bought a volume of liquid correct? So get a "graduated beaker" and pour a can into the beaker.....it will tell you how much you actually got.

You can't go by how full the can is, you don't know how oversize the can is. And weight of the contents does you no good if you don't know the density of the liquid.

Graduated beaker idea would waste a ton of material. Cans are all the same size.

I measured a full can of *** toner to my supposed half can of the same *** toner, noted the measurements and I am confused why I cannot know with these measurements ( pictured above ) figure out what I am lacking if anything at all.

 

[1930]

As stated earlier. A "full" can is probably not 100% of a cans true volume. Also you are kind of mixing apples and oranges with weight vs volume. Since you now have a good weight sample of full and half full, I would use weight as your future measuring stick. If the weight is within an acceptable weight for you it's a good can.

I do agree with you and ensure each can is within an acceptable tolerance. Like you say, unfortunately we live in a greedy, selfish world now and integrity is a four letter word.

As far as the overage, you can use that to paint your fellow Floridians cars for them.

p.s. Have you been to the GJ Florida Chapter thread yet?

No, I know nothing about a Florida chapter, not sure what that is al about, I like this forum.

Someone smarter than me I am sure can look at the weights and picture I posted above and tell me how close things are unless Im so dense that I cannot understand yet why that is not even possible.

 

[1930]

First off I will say I feel the Matrix system is one of the best bang for the buck systems out there. I use their clears extensively and recently on my overall jobs I've been using their color and have been impressed. My only qualm with their system is they don't have a VIN matching system as of yet which you know as well as me there can be a dozen different alternates to one stupid color. Yes if you know how to blend you can make due with the standard but it's nice to have something closer because it's just so much less material you have to use.

But to the question at hand. As you've stated you can't go by weight due to some pigments are higher in solids than others. So if you want to pursue the matter, the only other thing I can think of you could do to be right and let your supplier know they could have shorted you (but also they will know they may have overpoured in your favor on some) is get your rep out to your shop, go ahead and have a series of mixing sticks marked for the halfway point of the cans. Open each and every can in front of your rep and let them know how much you have been shorted or gained and see where you can meet an agreement. If you have a good supplier, they should make it right on either the next order or fix it then. But keep in mind they may say since ** toner has X amount and ** toner costs *** we kinda even ourselves out.

Just a thought or 2. But that's about the only way I can think that you can tell whether you've been screwed or not.

I dont know which clears you like but Ive been using the 78 lately,I like it and at 105 a kit I like it even better.

52 though in my opinion is a much more user friendly product with its superior flash/tack time.

I agree with the VIN deal and variance decks ****.

I dont want to accuse anyone of shorting me unless I have grounds to do so, Im pretty sure the info I gave in post # 12 should clear this up unless Im just missing something.

I havent opened a toner yet that I felt was half full by the naked eye. Yes close but a half inch of material in a 150 dollar quart of toner is alot of money times 60 some toner cans.

 

[jackson1701]

You would need to know the tare weight of the can first. You can not just divide the weight of a full can in half, you would need to subtract the weight of the can empty (tare weight), then you can divide the weight of just the paint/toner in half. It seems like you have a big trust issue in this company. If you have this much distrust, you are most likely going to drive yourself nuts going forward with all future sales.

 

[honEXduner]

Graduated beaker idea would waste a ton of material. Cans are all the same size.

I measured a full can of *** toner to my supposed half can of the same *** toner, noted the measurements and I am confused why I cannot know with these measurements ( pictured above ) figure out what I am lacking if anything at all.

If the cans are all of uniform shape and weight you should be able to scale a full can and your half full can for each of the different tones and get what you are looking for.

The key is knowing the "full can" weight, your "half full can" weight and the "empty can" weight for each respective toner.

"Full" can weight - empty can = Full can product (A)

"Half full" can weight - empty can = Half can product (B)

(B / A) *100 = percentage of fill for that specific liquid

 

[honEXduner]

You would need to know the tare weight of the can first. You can not just divide the weight of a full can in half, you would need to subtract the weight of the can empty (tare weight), then you can divide the weight of just the paint/toner in half. It seems like you have a big trust issue in this company. If you have this much distrust, you are most likely going to drive yourself nuts going forward with all future sales.

Beat me to it

 

[countryroad82]

The clears I have used are MS-52 for an overall clear, MS-30 as my primary clear as I do more collision work than anything, and I mistakingly ordered some MS-747 awhile back which I really liked very well after I got used to its spraying characteristics (it's a heavy bodied clear). I don't have a catalog new enough that show the 78 that you're using. But yes the price is what drew me to it, I can get a sprayable gallon (that's clear and hardener for you folks not in the know) of 52 or 30 for $85 which is way less than anything from Axalta and it's great clear.

I buy a lot from LKQ and they sent their rep by to get me to try the Matrix system. As it may be with you, I don't like to try anything new. I know what works for me and this **** is too expensive to just be playing around so I told the guy I'm not interested. Before he left he laid down a quart kit of clear and told me to just try it, no charge. I thanked him and said I'll give it a whirl sometime.

Fast forward to when I had time to try it. I like to do test panels way before I try something new on my paying customers vehicles unless it's someone I know that is ok with being a guenna pig. So I sprayed a junk fender with it, allowed it to cure, sanded and buffed it like I would anything else. Then I let it sit for a year with very little care taken of it. The panel survived, looked as good as the day I sprayed it. I dug through my business cards and found the rep, gave him a call and I've been using their clears exclusively ever since. I really do love that it works and doesn't cost a ******** fortune all at the same time I don't care to stand behind it and put my name on the work I do with the product.

 

[1930]

You would need to know the tare weight of the can first. You can not just divide the weight of a full can in half, you would need to subtract the weight of the can empty (tare weight), then you can divide the weight of just the paint/toner in half. It seems like you have a big trust issue in this company. If you have this much distrust, you are most likely going to drive yourself nuts going forward with all future sales.

One last time and then Ill just acknowledge I just am not going to get it, If I take a brand new unopened can of toner lets say its toner # 747 and I weigh it, I record the measurement and then I take the exact same type, style quart can that is the exact same toner but only approx. half full and weight it and compare these two measurements against one another than how would this not give me the differences of weights and why would that difference not be attributed to either more than half a can or less????

See post 12, this is what I have done, we are on post # 25 now so either the posts arent getting read by the responders or Im a bigger idiot than I thought.

 

[honEXduner]

One last time and then Ill just acknowledge I just am not going to get it, If I take a brand new unopened can of toner lets say its toner # 747 and I weigh it, I record the measurement and then I take the exact same type, style quart can that is the exact same toner but only approx. half full and weight it and compare these two measurements against one another than how would this not give me the differences of weights and why would that difference not be attributed to either more than half a can or less????

The weight of the can itself is not cut in half, it needs to be removed from the numbers before you divide.

Do you know the weight of a single, completely empty can?

 

[1930]

If the cans are all of uniform shape and weight you should be able to scale a full can and your half full can for each of the different tones and get what you are looking for.

The key is knowing the "full can" weight, your "half full can" weight and the "empty can" weight for each respective toner.

"Full" can weight - empty can = Full can product (A)

"Half full" can weight - empty can = Half can product (B)

(B / A) *100 = percentage of fill for that specific liquid

I do not understand why I need to know an empty can weight, can you explain this to me, if the toners are stored in the identical style can than how does that matter here?

 

[1930]

The weight of the can itself is not cut in half, it needs to be removed from the numbers before you divide.

Do you know the weight of a single, completely empty can?

I will go to the paint store again and get that.

 

[1930]

Im calling and getting that now

 

[1930]

116.7 grams empty can weight with lid

 

[1930]

Going by the first two cans furthest left and using 989.7-116.7=873 603.1-116.7=486.4 which means in both cases they gave me more than half a can which makes no sense since I can dip a paint stick in the can and clearly see that it is not half full.

I opened the full cans and the toner is all the way to the top of the ridge of the can, it is not below by any distance.

I guess Im losing my mind

 

[honEXduner]

Going by the first two cans furthest left and using 989.7-116.7=873 603.1-116.7=486.4 which means in both cases they gave me more than half a can which makes no sense since I can dip a paint stick in the can and clearly see that it is not half full.

I opened the full cans and the toner is all the way to the top of the ridge of the can, it is not below by any distance.

I guess Im losing my mind

Empty Can (g) 116.7
Can # Full (g) Half (g) % Fill
1 989.7 603.1 55.72
2 1013.1 660.7 60.69
3 1159.2 622.3 48.50
4 1189.2 574.1 42.65
5 1002.2 682.2 63.86
6 1291.1 697.2 49.43
7 1255.1 682.6 49.71
8 1139 625.8 49.80

Looks like you should be close on most of them.

Edit: column spacing went to pot - OK I give up making it look nice but you get the idea

 

[1930]

Empty Can (g) 116.7
Can # Full (g) Half (g) % Fill
1 989.7 603.1 55.72
2 1013.1 660.7 60.69
3 1159.2 622.3 48.50
4 1189.2 574.1 42.65
5 1002.2 682.2 63.86
6 1291.1 697.2 49.43
7 1255.1 682.6 49.71
8 1139 625.8 49.80

Looks like you should be close on most of them.

Edit: column spacing went to pot - OK I give up making it look nice but you get the idea

Thank-you and everyone for their help. Close enough for me and at least now I know.

 

[honEXduner]

Thank-you and everyone for their help. Close enough for me and at least now I know.

You're welcome

 

[logical]

Graduated beaker idea would waste a ton of material. Cans are all the same size.

I measured a full can of *** toner to my supposed half can of the same *** toner, noted the measurements and I am confused why I cannot know with these measurements ( pictured above ) figure out what I am lacking if anything at all.

I wasn't suggesting you dump every can into the beaker, just one. I suppose if you measured out a volume of water in the beaker and then dumped it into an empty can you would then know what depth represented a half can.

 

[1930]

I wasn't suggesting you dump every can into the beaker, just one. I suppose if you measured out a volume of water in the beaker and then dumped it into an empty can you would then know what depth represented a half can.

I went ahead and measured them all anyway just for peace of mind, they split these between two shops as starter sets, the next guy is going to really take it up the ...... I definitely made out ( for once ) considering all the toners.

 

[buddyboy]

find the weight of an empty can

weigh full can and subtract the weight of the can
then
weigh a 1/2 can and subtract the weight of the can

Let's say the empty can weighs 5, full can 15, and 1/2 can 10

full can content weight= 15-5=10
1/2 can content weight= 10-5=5

 

[buddyboy]

opps i'm too late to the game, i see someone else beat me to it with detailed answer

 

[jackson1701]

glad it worked out for you

 

[maxpower_hd]

Going by the first two cans furthest left and using 989.7-116.7=873 603.1-116.7=486.4 which means in both cases they gave me more than half a can which makes no sense since I can dip a paint stick in the can and clearly see that it is not half full.

I opened the full cans and the toner is all the way to the top of the ridge of the can, it is not below by any distance.

I guess Im losing my mind

It's possible that the full can you opened is a little overfull.