For tig fans

[d.mcfarland]

At a minimum I'd grind the rust off before welding. Only takes a min, shows pride in your work, end up with a better weld.

Why show off a job like this? Post this over on the WeldingWeb and you will get lots of feedback, wear your fireproof suit.

If this works for you, fine.

I'll answer this one!

First paragraph: yes, that would all be proper procedure, but that doesn't mean proper is what's needed in every situation. Pride and effectiveness are two different things.

Second paragraph: show off? more like post. Same thing we all do. Why are you on garage journal if you just get your rocks off for welds? sberry's garage had this done in it. No harm no foul.

Third paragraph: It worked. That's his whole point. Facts are the guy knows its a rust muffler. He just didn't want to listen to it...

 

[gorilla]

That's a really elegant fix back in the day it would be done with a OA torch and a coat hanger as filler rod.

 

[koditten]

I'll add.

That truck needs to do 1 thing. Get the fruit to the sellers. That truck needs to stop only for loading, unloading and fuel ups. The 2 hours needed to get a new muffler and install is unacceptable.

5 minutes to get a patch is way money ahead. Plus there is no way he could roll up to a seller with the truck sounding like ****.

Good thread.

 

[sberry]

Torch it off, hold new one up and weld it on.

 

[harvey29]

That's a really elegant fix back in the day it would be done with a OA torch and a coat hanger as filler rod.

Is there something wrong with that?

 

[dr_clyde]

Is there something wrong with that?

For a muffler, no. For just about anything else, a coat hanger is about the most sketchy filler around. Actual welding rod is cheap.

 

[mike13u]

I guess I'm missing the point of this thread. I've made that exact repair quite a few times in the past, some vehicles and equipment simply isnt worth spending money on in the rust belt and on the farm, and I'd never criticize that portion of it. Regarding the TIG vs MIG portion of this discussion, TIG's not only possible but IMO is the easier/better process to use in this instance. Cut a patch and fusion weld it in, if need be add a couple dabs of filler after. With TIG youre not fighting a heavy cable overhead, there's less spatter/fire risk on the vehicle, and its easier to control on thin/rusty **** metal.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but in the interest of hobby folks that look to these boards to learn something, I have to point out that I have read this post above and another this evening by you in the 'Fabrication & Techniques' thread regarding the differences between MIG & TIG. I don't think you know much about either of these processes.

 

[csp]

I take it you have yet to discover FaceBook....

No, Facebook is great. Imagine how many phone calls you'd have to make to tell everyone you just ate a burrito if it didn't exist.

 

[doojus]

ITT: We realize that TIG and MIG both have their place

 

[sberry]

Agree. Here is a joint from a mobile home beam splice. The cuts were general and relatively crude and the web is 10 ga, about 1/8 or so and you can see the gap. I believe there was 035 on a 255 here but can really hang with it and fill in a single pass. The ease of welding was easier, or as easy as fussing with fit and the pieces were cut to length, didn't try to short it to get the gap closed, simply weld up.
Pic 3 is the backside.

 

[countryroad82]

I only looked at this thread from the comment you made in your other thread sberry. Yeah I don't get why guys were going on about your fix. I dig some of the things you get into working on the farm and I also know what its like working with what you have verses going out and buying new. Yes a muffler is cheap, I'm not going to argue there. But let's say a cheap muffler costs $50, that $50 could go somewhere else that is far more important than a stinking muffler like fuel!! Post away sberry, you have my approval!!

 

[steel 35]

Now it's probably should have used a tig on that one!

 

[sberry]

There is money to be saved and a lot of it is that its fast. I get what I want now and able on occasion to do prototype or test before committing.
The muffler was as much a gag as was practical, some of both really but bought a starter for it and the cab is falling off, havnt installed the starter yet as its all going south anyway. The muffler was fast on a truck I may abandon tomorrow.
To top it off one was 60$, not so much on a muffler but we often make shop rate remanning parts but its also the wait factor is reduced. Sure the part is only 35 and it take an hr but that's 35 before taxes if you will and I can finish without a week wait plus shipping or shopping.
The rest of the piping in this case was intact, would have had a muffler, 2 new pipes several hangers and clamps and a couple hrs hard work or 10 minutes and relatively free on truck junk anyway, not to keen on scrapping a truck with a new exhaust,, ha..

 

[sberry]

Next time even cheaper, a gob of silicone, patch and a couple sheet metal screws.

 

[DenisG]

Sberry, I like your work. Quick and practical. You're keeping your business running and making money. Those who want artwork-quality welding, shouldn't be commenting on here.

 

[sberry]

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but in the interest of hobby folks that look to these boards to learn something, I have to point out that I have read this post above and another this evening by you in the 'Fabrication & Techniques' thread regarding the differences between MIG & TIG. I don't think you know much about either of these processes.

I am inclined to think the engineer knows more than I ever will, he might make a couple mistakes but he can read a book or 2 and be ahead of me. I really only understand some of the process that is sheer repetition and I am an easier way type. I don't figure cause I been doing it a while I been doing it right.
I have to argue that case on more than one occasion,,, should be way more proffecie3nt after 30 yrs, never really learned how, just did 2 weeks experience over a hundred times. You would think some observation would have made it obvious but I guess not.

 

[sberry]

I was at an event at the factory and they were demoing a couple machines. Had a guy named Chris on a 200 Dyn fussing with the dials and he is a master. I had a couple coupons and he mastered it real fast and I ask a couple other guys in the coats to take a spin. I had to push a little but,,, you could see plain as day they had the right man on the job.
I don't know if they were engineers or welding instructors, I cant recall. But the best I could ever get would be an A- tigger although I end up really fast.

 

[Tinner]

Sberry, I like your work. Quick and practical. You're keeping your business running and making money. Those who want artwork-quality welding, shouldn't be commenting on here.

Classic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

 

[bmxdad]

Same theory to describe why "not smart" people don't know why they're "not smart".

 

[PugetDude]

What was the purpose of posting something like that on the internet? That's what I don't get. Make the fix and get the part back to work. No need to show off something like that.

made you look....

 

[Vegaman_Dan]

What was the purpose of posting something like that on the internet? That's what I don't get. Make the fix and get the part back to work. No need to show off something like that.

That, my good sir, is the entire point of Garagejournal.com. Share ideas, techniques, experiences in hopes that others may learn your successes and failures.

For me, I wouldn't have thought to try to repair a muffler, but I do have some equipment that has mufflers that haven't been in production in decades and finding a replacement would be very difficult. I hadn't considered repairing one, but I have one hit and miss engine from the 1800's that could benefit from me repairing the original muffler rather than the glasspack that is on there now.

I *learned* something from the post.

 

[DenisG]

Classic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

You probably misunderstood the intent of my post. I was trying to defend his work because he intended to solve a practical problem and he did it quickly and effectively. If he spent time looking to make his welds pretty for all the world to admire, he'd probably be spending time not on his business and losing money.

I'm not sure where Dunning-Kruger comes into this except as an attack on me.

Does Dunning-Kruger apply to those who claim to understand this social psychology theory, but do not?

 

[IndyGarage]

I took the point of the post that you don't always have to have beautiful TIG welds to make stuff stick together and to fix things.

I did exactly the same thing one time when my old Porsche needed a $600 new muffler. About a half hour with a TIG and it didn't look all that great but it worked perfect.


I think it's a "to each his/her own" site.

Some folks are meticulous about how things look. They put form over function. They have a perfect garage with a fancy toolbox and their tools all laid out and gleaming in each drawer. They would never use a rusty piece of metal. They would never think of reusing a piece of steel, or buying a used tool or using something that.

I'm more in the function over form camp. I want things to work well, regardless of how they look. If they look good, that' a bonus, but I'm not going to go very far out of my way to make them that way. Sure I envy those guys that can lay down a perfectly straight stack of dimes Tig weld, but I don't have a problem that my stack looks a like nickels, dimes and pennies with a little crookedness as long as it sticks the pieces of metal together, and if a MIG gun will get the job done well and faster and let me get on to the next thing - well that's even better.

 

[sberry]

I have done beautiful work on pos, no one cared but me and it didn't last. I actually paint some when it makes sense and is worth it.

 

[fnieto]

I just read this thread from the start. Why title it "for tig fans"? I for one can tell you that I would have not considered this a TIG fix. All that rust and a position of the muffler would be a waist of time. Not sure if the OP is taking a jab at the ones that post beautiful TIG work.
Wow!...just saying your title seems a bit incendiary. Call it a "cheap fix" and everyone would appreciate it for what it is.

 

[zkling]

I think he is making a slight jab at those that promote tig welders for the home shop over mig welders in recent threads. Although I'm not your average hobby welder, if I had to do it again I certainly would have gone full blown tig machine right off the bat, you get more versatility per machine. Which I feel is beneficial to the average home welder that will be working on a mix of random items. That does not include the guys that own farm operations such as Sberry, or guys that are doing only one specific project such as building a fence/gate project, body on their classic restoration or putting a cage in their off road project. At the end of the day it's just another tool of which is designed to do a specific job. One just has to determine which process(es) and machine(s) their specific use is more suited to.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Next time even cheaper, a gob of silicone, patch and a couple sheet metal screws.

I know a guy that patched a hole in the side of a vertical 3.5 hp Briggs&Stratton that way. Rod and piston were scavenged out of other junk mowers. Lasted for years.

 

[Tinner]

You probably misunderstood the intent of my post. I was trying to defend his work because he intended to solve a practical problem and he did it quickly and effectively. If he spent time looking to make his welds pretty for all the world to admire, he'd probably be spending time not on his business and losing money.

I'm not sure where Dunning-Kruger comes into this except as an attack on me.

Does Dunning-Kruger apply to those who claim to understand this social psychology theory, but do not?

A good weld has a good appearance, it's a fundamental of welding. The fact that you and others here dismiss good appearance as art, shows your lack of understanding.

The berry farmer's solution to everything is cheaper, faster and easier. As Dr. Clyde stated early on in this thread, he can't see beyond his own little world. It's easy in any trade to work to your own standards. Not as easy to work to other people's standards as I've done for 35 years.

There's nothing wrong with a patch job on a muffler. The farmer got a good enough weld laying in there for about two thirds of the distance. Where the going got tough he shot a bunch of birdshit and called it good. Another 5 or 10 minutes would have made it worthy of discussion.

Had this been one of the hobbyists on here, I would have given him a thumbs up for his valiant effort and a couple tips on how to finish the job. The farmer however, is constantly telling us what an expert he is, a "career welder" , etc., posts pictures of rusty, scabby looking ****, and generally dismisses the most basic principals of welding and fab work.

DenisG, you can take the Dunning-Kruger link any way you want to, but when you dismiss craftsmanship as art, I'll jump in your **** every time.

 

[hunter1151]

Very well put Tinner, when I was learning how to weld in the sixties with an OA rig, I was always told to do my best and was shown how to properly make a good weld and why. The man who taught me the basics of welding, did it for a living in aircraft factories before and during the war. His welds had to be good and peoples lives depended on it. He also took pride in doing a good job. I see nothing wrong with wanting to do a good job, even if it is just a muffler on a pile of ****............after all the OP did take a picture of it, called out TIG guys and then posted all of it on here. How much time did that take?

 

[sanddan]

A good weld has a good appearance, it's a fundamental of welding. The fact that you and others here dismiss good appearance as art, shows your lack of understanding.

The berry farmer's solution to everything is cheaper, faster and easier. As Dr. Clyde stated early on in this thread, he can't see beyond his own little world. It's easy in any trade to work to your own standards. Not as easy to work to other people's standards as I've done for 35 years.

There's nothing wrong with a patch job on a muffler. The farmer got a good enough weld laying in there for about two thirds of the distance. Where the going got tough he shot a bunch of birdshit and called it good. Another 5 or 10 minutes would have made it worthy of discussion.

Had this been one of the hobbyists on here, I would have given him a thumbs up for his valiant effort and a couple tips on how to finish the job. The farmer however, is constantly telling us what an expert he is, a "career welder" , etc., posts pictures of rusty, scabby looking ****, and generally dismisses the most basic principals of welding and fab work.

DenisG, you can take the Dunning-Kruger link any way you want to, but when you dismiss craftsmanship as art, I'll jump in your **** every time.

Thank you Tinner, you said it better than I ever could.

 

[bmxdad]

Well ... that escalated rather quickly. From a down to earth, get'r done patch job, to welding as an art form?


Both have there place ... but I think it's gotten a little personal ... JMO

 

[sberry]

This is all good and while another 10 minutes would have been ok it wouldn't have helped, this isn't going to last anyway no matter how good the weld.

The berry farmer's solution to everything is cheaper, faster and easier. As Dr. Clyde stated early on in this thread, he can't see beyond his own little world. It's easy in any trade to work to your own standards. Not as easy to work to other people's standards as I've done for 35 years.

I would make it space worthy or nuclear grade if someone wanted to pay for it. But this is a whole different problem, its a problem with workers and especially worker bees even when they have expertise, they are not always so good at telling the difference between a rusty muffler and a pressure vessel.

 

[sberry]

If it wasn't about cheaper and faster then they wouldnt have invented contracting. They would polish all the rocks in a drainfield.

As Dr. Clyde stated early on in this thread, he can't see beyond his own little world

I been there, a couple of times, maybe more. But I see no more broader view from some of you guys, most are talented but live in your own little world. 99% of the people here will never strike an arc on stainless let alone do sanitary work but most hobby types will end up welding on a muffler pipe.
While there is a high degree of expertise the perspective is somewhat lacking. That may be a foggier lens than looking from the other end.

 

[sberry]

My 250 is a pos, I really don't use it a lot so its not a real deal and you can see the stop for a volt change while I was trying to work out a spatter issue with it.
Its true, I could have fussed with the muffler, another 5 minutes, setting a better light, moving the hoist a little, outing gloves on, using 2 hands, cleaning my welding hood and could have got it to look like this but would it be worthy on a piece I had to chase a couple holes on anyway?
In a week of use it would be rusty to the point a guy would have to look with a glass to tell it even been worked on and with a layer of rust it would look pretty good vs the super clean highly magnified look in a pic against rust.
The welds in this pic wont be seen either but they go to a piece of rigging equipment that is getting painted, on top of a little better appearance they are 10X as strong as they need to be.
If I was doing this regular would trade my machine and process up. Its too slow and too tedious and would want more forgiving with more power where the machine did the work.

 

[sberry]

Although I'm not your average hobby welder

I agree this is probably true and I talk to a career pipeliner that figures everyone needs a SAE or Vanatge. Expert welder but poor advice for the beginner unless someone gives them the machine and even then it could be costly.
I like to see the start where they get a lot of use out of it at an affordable cost. This leads to some snowball effect. Similar to hand tools in the respect a guy doesn't normally need every socket he owns to be top notch, often buy economic and add as needed and if a guy doesn't have a 211 class machine most eventually end up ther long way around and want one anyway,,, when they get it the rest kind of becomes a dust collector.
This may be a minimal situation in the dr's shop but is total opposite in a hobby shop,,,, millions of parked buzz boxes are evidence.
So are the dirty torch oa torch tips tossed in a box, I cant even remember the last time I welded steel with a torch, all been replaced by the small mig,,, and some tig in specialty apps.
There was another question on this fab section directly about tig,, got a different response from me than a hobby guy poking around wondering what is the right machine for him.

 

[sberry]

If you would have asked me the same question a dozen years in my career the response would have been different. I knew feeders were used auto body, production and with heavy wire but my world revolved around heavy stick work in power plant, factory repair and hi rise.
Wasn't till I went to a small job shop while slumming around I got exposed to feeders and even then rudimentary. I hadn't really studied any welding since college. Even in critical apps a guy doesn't need to know a lot, most ironwork or pipe isn't complicated even at high inspection levels.

 

[sberry]

I would have said everyone should learn stick first cause that's the path I went thru a bit of welding school then to the trades but today people want results. A 60 yr old guy retiring and wanting to keep the mower running and built swings for grandkids will run out of real tig work quickly. A guy going in to drag racing or real motor sports is another matter and a lions share of nascar is done mig.
Some of it not as good as a sand separator from what I see.

 

[sberry]

Ok experts,,, what is this?
The second pic is a good example of some of this. A single zip of 6010 around this pipe joint with no finish and only rudimentary fit up. A dozen years later when we dig it up it hasn't leaked and no one remembers if there was spatter or not, would not changed any outcome to finish it any better and most of the flaws have become obsure.

 

[DenisG]

A good weld has a good appearance, it's a fundamental of welding.

DenisG, you can take the Dunning-Kruger link any way you want to, but when you dismiss craftsmanship as art, I'll jump in your **** every time.

I used to test welds in a foundry. Lots of good looking welds fail because of voids and lack of penetration.

I don't judge things by how they look. I prefer to judge things based on what the builder intended to do.

The Dunning-Kruger was nothing more than a cheap crack. Welcome to my "ignore list."

 

[csp]

I used to test welds in a foundry. Lots of good looking welds fail because of voids and lack of penetration.

He didn't say that a good looking weld means that it's inherently a good weld.

How many welds that look like peanut butter and birdcrap thrown together pass the testing?