Forward looking

[FredWanaker]

I live in a 1979 built house with a 125 amp rated GE panel with a 100 amp main breaker. All but two of the circuits are now taken, and the main wire chases (conduits) up to the attic space are full. The house has T1-11 siding that the panel sits inside, and it will be a pain to take a T1-11 panel off to replace the electric panel. There is no room in the garage for a new electric panel either near that spot. So much gets damaged in the process too. The underground cables come from a vault out front but there is thick concrete covering the entire path. I do not know if the cable was in conduit or direct burial when the house was built. I suspect it is direct burial into a conduit thru the foundation. (Foundation and slab). The T1-11 was all replaced with new windows about 2003. I did that work and would not want to do it again at my current age and health. There was no way of knowing in 2003 that all these changes were going to come. The house is 1400 sq ft one story.

I am 73. In the next 10 years we will have to replace a car(s), probably not another water heater because it is new, but the 29-yearold split HVAC system with natural gas will have to go, already have an electric dryer and gas stove that will probably have to be replaced also. I run two compressors in the shed on a 240 V circuit. There has never been an overload and our power use in summer is about 950 - 1000 kWh a month even when we have 110F days. The original aluminum wire for an electric cooktop has been pulled as have been the breakers for it. There is a copper wire over on the kitchen side of the house for 240 V where a spa was, and it could possibly reach to a junction box that could be put in the lower kitchen cabinets. The issue is that with the new EPA orders coming out, and changing California laws, the car(s) will need to be electric instead of gasoline, the water heater will go to a heat pump style, the natural gas heater will end up a heat pump with some kind of heat strips when it is foggy and 33 degrees here, and the stove will end up inductive electric. The water heater could end up a heat pump too. What am I looking at power wise to be able to do all these things? Can they be done on a 125 amp panel, and if not are there options to replace an underground cable without destroying the driveway to dig down? Do I abandon the natural gas when this happens or simply shut it off? Just trying to look ahead.

 

[Norcal]

There is not going to be enough power to run this all electric fairy tale future, but I assume that your in PG&E territory, and in 1979 they used a 2" conduit for 100/200A UG services, now all the EUSERC utilities, and PG&E is one, require a 3" conduit, the UG feeder is likely to be 1/0 Aluminum, so it will not be easy, it's probably going to be easier to get rid of the semi-flush panel & use a surface mounted in it's place, it will be a schiff storm, the load in your subdivision was sized to the load then, not for all electric.

 

[FredWanaker]

There is not going to be enough power to run this all electric fairy tale future, but I assume that your in PG&E territory, and in 1979 they used a 2" conduit for 100/200A UG services, now all the EUSERC utilities, and PG&E is one, require a 3" conduit, the UG feeder is likely to be 1/0 Aluminum, so it will not be easy, it's probably going to be easier to get rid of the semi-flush panel & use a surface mounted in it's place, it will be a schiff storm, the load in your subdivision was sized to the load then, not for all electric.

understood. SMUD. SMUD dug up the streets two years ago and put in all new underground and pulled new cables between junctions in the street. While they did things like go all the way to the transformers using conduit and new concrete, they did not go into the vault out front, so I think they just changed the deeder lines in the tract. They would not talk with anyone about what the goal was. Lots of problems since as they sorted out weak links. There is a vault in my front driveway, next to the driveway next door that we share the connection in. The wiring is down almost 5'. About 20 years ago one of the legs went to ground next door, and the house next door and streetlights were affected on that leg. They put in two layers of utility boxes when done so they did not have to dig it up again. The Telco is above them by about 18". I watched them work on it. The wires were black coated, and they had to put a pigtail on the damaged one as it was too short to repair otherwise. They redid all the connections in that vault. The wires to the neighbor's house were in the wet dirt, as was the wire to the streetlight loop. You could see where the one leg had been arcing to ground. They did not dig it up too much past the point of the short to ground. I suspect it goes all the way to the house in the dirt then goes into conduit and up thru conduit. When I put on new siding on this house in 2003 or so, the wires emerged from a conduit about 6" above the foundation and went up to the panel and meter. I am concerned that a 100 amp service isn't going to cut it. I am not being political here, just concerned that these people are ruthless in their quest to affect change. I am not so sure it won't be forced on us regardless - and if we stay in this house we have to be prepared. Best guess is they will penalize the people with assets who do not spend it to upgrade, then they will charge us a premium to upgrade those for free who are below the poverty line. I see maybe $100,000 cost to meet these new requirements in the best fashion, when all is said and done - before the price of new cars. I have gone well beyond being upset about it and just figure that you can't argue with these people, regardless of what is logical or not. Totally understand that math is not on their side. They don't care. In 23 years here we have had one outage that was more than 10 hours. My new neighbor is so concerned they put in a generator to supply the whole house with the shortages that are coming. It took me back to my step-mom's childhood house, built in 1920 or so Alabama where there was an outbuilding for the generator to supply power to the house. They used mules and draft horses to plough the fields, and we seem headed there again.

 

[Norcal]

I only had dealing with SMUD once, changing a 1960's Zinsco, in Rio Linda, and damn they were slow on the reconnect, lucky the house was vacant, but rate payers are much better off over PG&E.

 

[yatg]

Just trying to look ahead.

Move. California is going to keep squeezing until you pop like a ketchup packet.

 

[FredWanaker]

Move. California is going to keep squeezing until you pop like a ketchup packet.

I think it has gone national now. Not sure where one can escape to. We are looking but I still need a plan B if we can't get out of here.

 

[Zeke]

Fred, IDT these mandates are going to go as fast as you think where you can't get anything but what you described in post #1. There will always be used appliances for sale. If you start thinking about this, you can get some things you may need if you have time on your side. For instance, I saw a perfectly good dishwasher for free just because they bought something "to match." I should have grabbed it and stored it for that day. Same with relatively new water heaters. I know you said you don't need one but they don't last like they used to. People adding on or buying into the instant hot water thing sometimes sell off perfectly good WH's for peanuts. Or they can't get by on 30 gallon because the added on. These things are out there.

The HVAC should be your priority now because you are wasting money. I think a recession is on the horizon (some will say it's already here) and the short staffed contractors won't be gouging like they are now in a couple years. That's my bet anyway. Planning is learning and learning makes good plans.

Most of the mandates start with new construction. The car thing is a long way off and they won't take your old gas car away, so get one that will last 10 years in the next couple of years and be done with that. Lease returns are always a decent buy, not great, but better than taking the depreciation hit that new car buyers take.

You've got the potential to power an inductive range and you might like it. I bought a counter top single unit just to try. It's OK but I didn't buy an expensive one. Those that work on 240v are great. I've seen them in action.

I'm not headed into a political discussion either, but to achieve what has been set forth will involve compromise. I believe the word 'grandfathered' will be in use a lot. But plan. Thinking you have to invest 100K to stat where you are does not sound like solid thinking to me. Nor creative. I am not be critical. I'm tying to be logical which might be in short supply.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I think it has gone national now. Not sure where one can escape to. We are looking but I still need a plan B if we can't get out of here.

No it hasnt gone national.

And there is no state law mandating that existing homes replace their natural gas appliances with electric ones.

The all electric or nothing BS is only being implemented in nee buildings in certain cities like bezerkley half moon bay etc…

As to your car, the ban in 2035 only applies to new cars. You can still drive ICE cars after that date.

It seems this is much ado about nothing.

Also you should be glad youre on SMUD. Theyre fsr cheaper than Profit Gouge & Execute. Im 70 something miles south of you and we have MID, which is also far far cheaper than Profits Gone Elsewhere….

 

[FredWanaker]

I have been here 33 years so it is not as easy to move as someone say 4 or 5 years. Right now I am trying to sell off unused tools etc., to lighten any load. Standing here looking straight down, there are no rules that tell me everything has to be all electric. However looking forward to what is being pushed here and nationally, it is coming unless the American people stop it, which so far they have not. A friend in San Diego is very progressive left. He wanted a heat pump water heater so he could save the world, until a couple electricians told him what was involved cost wise in pulling a 240V circuit to where the water heater was, opening up walls, etc., He bought a gas fired one to replace the gas fired one. But everyday I see one more nail in the coffin for people who want to use gas. I don't agree or understand it, but I am only one person. It is like ethanol fuels. The National Academy of the Sciences released a peer reviewed study not barely a year ago. It said unequivocally that ethanol fuels put more CO2 into the atmosphere than they save when all the processes in making ethanol fuels are added up. It said that the polluted land and water was far worse thru that process than just using fossil fuels. Have you heard one person other than me mention that well-funded and detailed study? I have no idea where the future lies anymore and am worn out from it. Just want to have a plan.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Never heard of that study but yeah ethanol is horrible. The efficiency is worse than regular gas, it uses lots of fossil fuels to produce it etc

We have 2 ethanol plants south of us in keyes. UPRR hauls long corn trains to these plants several times per week… cant be cleaner than regular gasoline production

 

[rharman]

I've posted this several times when the topic comes up....

The deadlines were put in place to "plant a flag" as a goal to reach. If you don't have a goal to plan for, you'll never make progress.

I agree with the ultimate goal - I just think the complexity of compliance has been severely underestimated.

It's almost a certainty that the deadlines currently being touted will be extended. Reality will set in and things will be adjusted to suit.

 

[FredWanaker]

let's hope so. A train to the moon is a great idea but I doubt if it will happen in the near distant future. However the people in power aren't acting like their goals are flexible. Making concrete requires using lots of natural gas to cook limestone to drive the CO2 out to make lime for concrete. It takes eons for all that concrete to weather back down to sequester the CO2 into limestone (calcium carbonate) again. I have to wonder how much concrete will be used in those offshore wind towers that are supposed to create electricity, and how much diesel will be used sending ships and barges out to create them. In the mean time here is a link to the ethanol study results https://www.nwf.org/Latest-News/Pre...e-An-Unmitigated-Disaster-for-People-Wildlife

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You agree with the ultimate goal of limiting peoples’ energy source to electric only? Horrible idea. Relying solely on one source of energy is a recipe for disaster…

Just think when the grid goes down in the winter and people dont have a fuel source for heat. People are gonna freeze…

 

[FredWanaker]

You agree with the ultimate goal of limiting peoples’ energy source to electric only? Horrible idea. Relying solely on one source of energy is a recipe for disaster…

Just think when the grid goes down in the winter and people dont have a fuel source for heat. People are gonna freeze…

I hate the idea. That is where the stress in my life comes from. I didn't start this thread because I wanted to, I felt compelled to look ahead at what the challenges might be for this household if these people keep control and keep pushing.

 

[dave*99]

Offshore wind is the hot topic in coastal NJ right now. Government is entirely vested in it. Local groups are protesting. NJ governor seeks same bans to ICE cars as California.

SEMA is working to preserve consumer choice in vehicles:

House Subcommittee Passes Bills to Protect Vehicle Technology Choice

The Choice in Automobile Retail Sales Act is one of two SEMA-supported bills that seek to preserve vehicle choice for consumers.

www.sema.org

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I hate the idea. That is where the stress in my life comes from. I didn't start this thread because I wanted to, I felt compelled to look ahead at what the challenges might be for this household if these people keep control and keep pushing.

Yeah my post was in reply to rharman but the quote didnt carry thru

 

[FredWanaker]

Yeah my post was in reply to rharman but the quote didnt carry thru

thanks for clearing that up.

 

[rharman]

You agree with the ultimate goal of limiting peoples’ energy source to electric only? Horrible idea. Relying solely on one source of energy is a recipe for disaster…

Just think when the grid goes down in the winter and people dont have a fuel source for heat. People are gonna freeze…

Goal of reduction of fossil fuels. I don't think we'll ever get to single source but I do think things will evolve.

Things might be different in different locales. For example, Minnesota has quite different heating needs than most of California.

BTW...
A bit of Googling shows that ~26% of homes in USA are already all-electric.
61% of homes in USA used natural gas for some of their needs - one would assume heating (air & water) being the primary use.
If you have a natural gas furnace and the "grid" goes down, your furnace is not too useful.
If the "grid" goes down, how will the natural gas be supplied from the sources?

Not trying to start a flame war - just throwing some thoughts/opinions out there.

 

[nadogail]

One of the ways to get more power to your house without increasing the size of the conduit the feeders are run through is to pull out the Aluminum and replace it With Copper.
We pulled out the 100 Amp Aluminum and replaced it with 150 Amp Copper. We ran another conduit through a flower bed to feed 50 Amps to the new AC unit.

At my son's house rather than bust up the concrete when he added more Photovoltaic Panels the Solar Contractor used panels that incorporated their own inverters.

 

[FredWanaker]

The power into the house is handled by the Power Company. I have no idea if they can replace the wires by moleing or if they have to jackhammer the driveway, and what they would charge me to pull a new cable. Since it will be theirs, they have the choice what to use. I noticed this article this morning, thus showing why I am asking these questions now so I have a plan.

"The Biden administration's newest crackdown on home appliances, specifically water heaters, would take effect in 2029 if its regulatory proposal is enacted as it continues to implement its aggressive energy efficiency campaign. White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre on Monday acknowledged the president was going after home appliances. The newest target is water heaters. A Department of Energy (DOE) proposal released late Friday said new regulations would ultimately "accelerate deployment" of electric heat pump water heaters, claiming it would save Americans billions of dollars and reduce carbon emissions."

Also - I have lived in an all-electric home before. Could not wait to sell and move out. It was impossible to heat the house in winter because of the cost.

 

[Norcal]

The power into the house is handled by the Power Company. I have no idea if they can replace the wires by moleing or if they have to jackhammer the driveway, and what they would charge me to pull a new cable. Since it will be theirs, they have the choice what to use. I noticed this article this morning, thus showing why I am asking these questions now so I have a plan.

"The Biden administration's newest crackdown on home appliances, specifically water heaters, would take effect in 2029 if its regulatory proposal is enacted as it continues to implement its aggressive energy efficiency campaign. White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre on Monday acknowledged the president was going after home appliances. The newest target is water heaters. A Department of Energy (DOE) proposal released late Friday said new regulations would ultimately "accelerate deployment" of electric heat pump water heaters, claiming it would save Americans billions of dollars and reduce carbon emissions."

Also - I have lived in an all-electric home before. Could not wait to sell and move out. It was impossible to heat the house in winter because of the cost.

I am not a fan of wood stoves (they stink) but being all electric is a damn good reason to have one.

 

[FredWanaker]

I am not a fan of wood stoves (they stink) but being all electric is a damn good reason to have one.

yes and here they are only allowed a few days in winter. Little by little someone is getting control of all the energy in this country. Keep in mind that the public also owns the dams that hold the water that make power but well to do corporations and private investors own the generators that make the power.

 

[Norcal]

yes and here they are only allowed a few days in winter. Little by little someone is getting control of all the energy in this country. Keep in mind that the public also owns the dams that hold the water that make power but well to do corporations and private investors own the generators that make the power.

Good old, burn, no burn, days the exception being if the stove was your only source of heat, that certainly can be arranged.

 

[FredWanaker]

Still working on this in my mind. Right now trying to figure the solution to the main panel. Because it is outdoors and installed flush with the T1-11, any changes will be a bit more difficult. At the bottom of my panel right now I have 2 unused THQL thin line breakers filling the bottom two cutouts. I tried the plastic covers but they do not work well so we put breakers in and turned them off, marking them as spares. The panel is full. One of the mains is marked 100 amps and a tandem bar covers between it and the one next to it. The panel itself is marked up to 125 amps (GE).

In the panel I have along with other breakers, tandem breakers marked 50 amps on each that run to a no longer used hot tub connection. It ran to an outdoor GFCI that a hot tub was wired into. My understanding is that each half cycle provided 50 amps. I think the spa called for 40 amps at 240V. It is gone, those tandem breakers turned off. The wire to the hot tub at the GFCI breaker is removed but the wire from it to the tandem breaker in the panel is intact and near the kitchen. I was thinking that this circuit could be used for an induction stove / cooktop if I had to go that way. There are other 240 volt circuits that use tandem breakers such as one that goes to the subpanel in the shed, the AC and the electric dryer. All other breakers are single. This leaves only the two unused breakers at the bottom. If the 100 amp service would support what is coming in California, then it would make more sense to have an electrician add a subpanel somewhere in the garage, and run any future car chargers or heat pump water heaters out of it. But if 100 amps is too little then it would mean a new panel will have to be installed. (Pull permits, siding, and have electrician do all the work, then put siding back on etc).

I also want to install a whole house surge protector but there is no room since only the spots for the two thin line THQL breakers are left. Since it is outdoors, it would also be a bit more difficult to install one outside the panel, but I don't know. Any ideas appreciated.

 

[FredWanaker]

apparently, no one has an answer as to whether the 100 amp panel will work and if so why or why not.

 

[FredWanaker]

Everyone here seems to be in denial that these changes are really happening. It is like watching a 16-year-old who says, "maybe no one will see that I am pregnant."

 

[eejack]

Going off of your OP, you are concerned you will still be doing the things at 83 that you are doing at 73 in the same place with essentially the same equipment but your power needs will increase ( ignoring all the politics ).

Your existing 125A service will be sufficient.

Personally I would replace the ancient HVAC system almost immediately, just replaced mine with a similar pedigree and it performs much better.

You can change the water heater now if you are worried about it and purchase additional anodes and replace them every 5 years ( usually the heater dies shortly after the anode wears out ).

 

[dave*99]

I'm as concerned about the upcoming changes as the next guy. But as others have said, the biggest push is in requirements for new construction etc. As these changes happen, there are practical limits. Deadlines get extended, more solutions are developed etc.

Here is an example. In my last house I replaced my central AC in 1995. It's an R-22 system. I went with R-22 I believe R-410 was available, but my HVAC buddy felt an R-22 system had some advantages in my installation.

At the time R-22 phase out was in the early stages. Now it's 2023. That system still runs fine. Its SEER is 13 and it replaced a 10 SEER system. The drop in energy usage was dramatic. My HVAC buddy said the 10 SEER systems back then didn't really achieve 10. That seemed to prove out in my case. I recall swapping out the 40A breaker with a 30A due to the reduced power needs. It's a 3 ton system and I remember measuring it drawing 9A while running. And SEER requirements are going up again....who knows, maybe the next time that system gets replaced it will only need 20A and the condensing unit will provide domestic hot water.

This describes the phase out of R-22:

The Refrigerant Story: From R-22 to R-410A | Goodman Manufacturing

Learn why your air conditioner or heat pump refrigerant has changed from R-22 to R-410A refrigerant and what will happen to your refrigerant in the future.

www.goodmanmfg.com

Today R-22 is no longer produced. It's still around. Reclaimed, virgin, whatever you need can be found. It's not cheap, but it can be had. I have some in case a leak develops in that 1995 system, but it's more likely the system would get replaced. It's 2023 and guess what---- the phase out of R-410a has begun.

My point --- if you are proactively seeking to convert your house and lifestyle to the latest stuff, perhaps an upgrade to your panel and all that goes with it is in order. If you are resistant to those changes, you are not alone. And solutions that are reasonably priced to replace old equipment in existing installations will and must come along. There are rebate and tax credit programs attached to some mandates.