Foundation suggestions

[Ron Shaw]

Well, I hate for this to be my first post but...
I had a 39x50 garage built last fall. Over the winter the foundation - Trench footing moved (pitched inboard 3 inches) Come to find out my footing was only 8" wide. State code on Michigan is 12" when using 8" cinder block. Building was built with 8 coarse of block with 10ft walls, for a ceiling height of 14ft. My plans called for 12" trench footings and the inspector (friend of builder) approved the trench to pour. Now i'm dealing with the head off the building department as a referee. The building dept guy told my builder he has to repair the building per the structural engineer that I hired. The engineer said the reason it moved was a combination of 8" footings, over pour of the footings and backfill only 24" off the 42" footings. He also said the 8" footings wont handle the weight-load of the building.
My questions are. Whos at fault? (builder-inspector or both) What happens if the builder refuses?
What happens if builder files bankruptsy?
Should I sue the builder and or the inspector-township?

 

[Richard Cranium]

If your builder files you are screwed.
Not sure going after the inspector would work, good luck.

 

[matt_i]

There's an orderly process for filing a complaint for a code violation against a licensed builder in the state of Michigan. As I recall it starts with the Bureau of Licensing and Regulation in Lansing. Make sure to understand this process and follow it specifically. Imo it gives you the most power as a consumer because the Builder's License (which they need to pull more permits and get more work) is at stake if they don't comply, etc.

Bankruptcy is one thing that involves protection from creditors but having your license revoked is not something that involves any "do-overs" as I recall. My memory is fuzzy, but I went thru the process to gain builder's licensing in Michigan in the early 90s, but the skeleton of the process still exists in my mind.

I Hope you get some satisfaction eventually. It sounds like a poor job. If you get the chance I would pour a pad footing at the bottom the next time around.

 

[readhead]

The building department will usually have any number of disclaimers about inspections. Depending on where this goes you may have to approach the city or county attorney. You have a liability insurance cert from the builder, right? If he is unresponsive file a claim with his insurance. This doesn't sound like an easy fix. My first thought is the building will have to be picked up and secured and then all the concrete removed so a new foundation and slab can be installed. Good luck.

 

[Hilltopmasonry]

. You have a liability insurance cert from the builder, right? If he is unresponsive file a claim with his insurance. This doesn't sound like an easy fix. My first thought is the building will have to be picked up and secured and then all the concrete removed so a new foundation and slab can be installed. Good luck.

Liability insurance won’t do anything for that, the only policy that is effective against faulty work is a bond however bonds are usually job specific meaning I have to pay for a bond for each job and the only reason I do that is if it is required.




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[77Birdman]

My guess is the building inspector will bear no responsibility. Without knowing the builder, no idea what his take will be. I would try to resolve it as quickly and amicably as possible without having to go to litigation. Only the lawyers win there. You may have to bite the bullet and pay yourself to have things rectified. If it were me, after all of the dust was clear, I think I would go after the inspector himself. He had a duty to perform and failed.

 

[ConCretin]

Your builder is the responsible party here. The building inspector is there to protect the public interest not yours. It's up to you or your designee to protect your interests and ensure you are getting what you paid for.

I assume you have a contract with the builder. If so, that will obviously help. If he fails to correct the deficiency and is not bonded, you will have to take him to court. There is no insurance that a contractor can buy that protects you from his lousy workmanship. If he files, get in line with the rest of the creditors and hope there is something left.

Sorry you are having to deal with this and good luck. Hopefully you picked the right guy and he'll fix his mistakes.

 

[readhead]

Because there was an actual failure the liability insurance should kick in. How was this discovered?

 

[Ron Shaw]

Because there was an actual failure the liability insurance should kick in. How was this discovered?

I noticed the block cracked at the corners. Then I hired a boring company to bore a 5in hole through the footing about 3ft down to relieve the water from inside the building. The builder removed the vegetation and hit the water table. That's when I seen that the bore hole was only 8in thick.
My next step was to call a structural engineer. He said I have 2 options on the repair. 1. Try to dig a trench on the outside of the footers, then try to push the footer and wall back straight. But he said it will probably break all the block. Especially since the block is not filled with concrete.
2. Have pilings installed under the footings and rebuild the walls, at a price of 30 grand minimum.

 

[GMCGarage]

I noticed the block cracked at the corners. Then I hired a boring company to bore a 5in hole through the footing about 3ft down to relieve the water from inside the building. The builder removed the vegetation and hit the water table. That's when I seen that the bore hole was only 8in thick.
My next step was to call a structural engineer. He said I have 2 options on the repair. 1. Try to dig a trench on the outside of the footers, then try to push the footer and wall back straight. But he said it will probably break all the block. Especially since the block is not filled with concrete.
2. Have pilings installed under the footings and rebuild the walls, at a price of 30 grand minimum.

Im not getting it. Is it 8" wide or 8" thick?

 

[Ron Shaw]

Your builder is the responsible party here. The building inspector is there to protect the public interest not yours. It's up to you or your designee to protect your interests and ensure you are getting what you paid for.

I assume you have a contract with the builder. If so, that will obviously help. If he fails to correct the deficiency and is not bonded, you will have to take him to court. There is no insurance that a contractor can buy that protects you from his lousy workmanship. If he files, get in line with the rest of the creditors and hope there is something left.

Sorry you are having to deal with this and good luck. Hopefully you picked the right guy and he'll fix his mistakes.

I have a contract that states a 12in footing.
I also have the whole build documented on my security cameras.

 

[Ron Shaw]

Im not getting it. Is it 8" wide or 8" thick?

Sorry, wide

 

[Hilltopmasonry]

My guess is the building inspector will bear no responsibility..

That may or may not be true, it all depends on whether the village inspector actually inspected and approved the footings prior to the pour

For example The Town that I grew up in and do a lot of construction work In a homeowner successful sued the city because of a faulty fireplace that was built that the inspector inspected and passed but missed the fact that the smoke chamber was too small and not built “up to industry standards”

The contractor went out of business due to the recession so the homeowner went after the city


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[readhead]

Who was involved in the process? Was there a mason involved or did the GC do most or all of the work? Considering the water issue I presume that there was no soil testing done.

 

[TRWham]

I noticed the block cracked at the corners. Then I hired a boring company to bore a 5in hole through the footing about 3ft down to relieve the water from inside the building. The builder removed the vegetation and hit the water table. That's when I seen that the bore hole was only 8in thick.
My next step was to call a structural engineer. He said I have 2 options on the repair. 1. Try to dig a trench on the outside of the footers, then try to push the footer and wall back straight. But he said it will probably break all the block. Especially since the block is not filled with concrete.
2. Have pilings installed under the footings and rebuild the walls, at a price of 30 grand minimum.

Are you saying there was water under the slab behind the footing? Where did the water come from?

I have a contract that states a 12in footing.
I also have the whole build documented on my security cameras.

If the soil is unstable, which sounds like a possibility, a 12" footing may not have made a difference. How deep is this footing (the actual concrete, not the depth below grade)?

 

[Ron Shaw]

Who was involved in the process? Was there a mason involved or did the GC do most or all of the work? Considering the water issue I presume that there was no soil testing done.

Correct. No soil testing was done. The GC dug the trench himself. The mason is an employee of the GC. The GC knew he was doing the trench wrong. (and later admitted it) That's why he intensionally over poured the footings (mushroom pour) so the mason could have some wiggle room to set his block. I caught that mistake also. The block wasn't 100% on the footings. The block was 3 to 4 in off the footings inboard. So the inspector made the GC pin and pour another footing to support the block. But he only went down 24in. But I didn't realize at the time it was due to the 8in footings. The GC should of just poured the second footing and pinned it all the way down to 42in and maybe this could've been avoided?

 

[Ron Shaw]

Are you saying there was water under the slab behind the footing? Where did the water come from?



If the soil is unstable, which sounds like a possibility, a 12" footing may not have made a difference. How deep is this footing (the actual concrete, not the depth below grade)?

There was 18 to 24 inches of vegetation on top of tan clay. The footing is 42in deep. There is no floor yet.

 

[ard]

You should be getting some legal advice NOW. I know people are fearful of spending $$$, but not doing so until later can cost you dearly. You don't need to go nuts, but retain someone so they can make sure you aren't missing anything.

Also, DO NOT assume the building official has your best interests at heart. His PRIMARY interest is his own hide. And that means making sure his inspector AND his department aren't holding the bag on this.

 

[GMCGarage]

Lets start over.

how wide is the footing?
how deep is the footing?
how much extra concrete was pinned on?

If I read your posts right, you have a 8" wide wall, with scabbed on concrete and block above that?

If so, get them back to rip it out and have it done properly.

What does your engineer say it needs to be to support your building?

 

[Charlie51]

There is a lot going on here that I'm not getting. I take it that the garage is sitting on rather wet sandy soil and the base is a trenched wall 8 inches wide with a total depth of 42 inches. The bottom of the trench should have been widened somehow to 12 inches to provide a "footing". I guess that didn't happen. Didn't the contractor run a string line to insure the straightness of the poured wall/footing? Were there any spots of cave-in before or during the pour?

 

[Ron Shaw]

Lets start over.

how wide is the footing?
how deep is the footing?
how much extra concrete was pinned on?

If I read your posts right, you have a 8" wide wall, with scabbed on concrete and block above that?

If so, get them back to rip it out and have it done properly.

What does your engineer say it needs to be to support your building?

The bottom 18 inches of the 42 inch deep footing is 8 inches wide
The pinned repour supporting the block is 24 inches from the top of the footing. The engineer said IF the wall is moved back, repin and pour an additional 8 inches of footer.

 

[Ron Shaw]

There is a lot going on here that I'm not getting. I take it that the garage is sitting on rather wet sandy soil and the base is a trenched wall 8 inches wide with a total depth of 42 inches. The bottom of the trench should have been widened somehow to 12 inches to provide a "footing". I guess that didn't happen. Didn't the contractor run a string line to insure the straightness of the poured wall/footing? Were there any spots of cave-in before or during the pour?

The GC dug the trench with a walk behind trencher. (I have pictures)
He dug the trench first, without removing any vegetation - grass. (black dirt-peet moss) He then over poured onto the grass the footing. In some areas over 12 to 18 inches. He then built the 8 coarses of block. After that he removed about 6 inches of vegetation. Leaving approx. 18 inches of top soil on top of the clay. He was going to leave the top soil "said it was good stable soil" I told him there was no such thing, and made him remove it.
That's when he hit the water table in late October.
Everything else you asked was correct.

 

[GMCGarage]

The bottom 18 inches of the 42 inch deep footing is 8 inches wide
The pinned repour supporting the block is 24 inches from the top of the footing. The engineer said IF the wall is moved back, repin and pour an additional 8 inches of footer.

ok.

I would not accept that cobbled together footing. I would tell your contractor to make it per the drawings, and no more pinning, etc. If he cannot do that, start litigation with him

Would you want a new car that is dinged up, bondo-ed over, and made to look nice? You are asking for trouble down the road.

 

[6768rogues]

If it comes to a lawsuit, name everyone remotely involved. The municipality might not do anything but perhaps you can get the incompetent inspector fired. I worked as a county inspector, and the deal was that if I was doing my job and missed some little detail, the county would indemnify me. However, if I was eating donuts and not doing my job, simply pencil whipping the inspection forms, they could cut me loose and let me defend myself. Also, the county funded an account every year to deal with nuisance law suits. If it was less than $7000 or so, they would pay because it was cheaper than fighting. Maybe you can get something from them. You need a lawyer, get a free consultation from a couple. There was a case locally that resulted in the inspector losing his job and paying a settlement personally.

 

[ard]

The engineer said ....

Is this YOUR engineer? Or is this 'the contractors engineer'???????

Is he 'saying' this stuff in writing, with his PE seal on it? Or just standing in the driveway?

 

[Ron Shaw]

Is this YOUR engineer? Or is this 'the contractors engineer'???????

Is he 'saying' this stuff in writing, with his PE seal on it? Or just standing in the driveway?

My engineer that came and looked at the building, with a written proposal

 

[Ron Shaw]

If it comes to a lawsuit, name everyone remotely involved. The municipality might not do anything but perhaps you can get the incompetent inspector fired. I worked as a county inspector, and the deal was that if I was doing my job and missed some little detail, the county would indemnify me. However, if I was eating donuts and not doing my job, simply pencil whipping the inspection forms, they could cut me loose and let me defend myself. Also, the county funded an account every year to deal with nuisance law suits. If it was less than $7000 or so, they would pay because it was cheaper than fighting. Maybe you can get something from them. You need a lawyer, get a free consultation from a couple. There was a case locally that resulted in the inspector losing his job and paying a settlement personally.

I've talked to one Lawyer already. He said he thinks that I have to give my contractor the opportunity to fix the problem before I can sue him? I`d like to find one that specializes in this area.

 

[mike93lx]

The GC dug the trench with a walk behind trencher. (I have pictures)
He dug the trench first, without removing any vegetation - grass. (black dirt-peet moss) He then over poured onto the grass the footing. In some areas over 12 to 18 inches. He then built the 8 coarses of block. After that he removed about 6 inches of vegetation. Leaving approx. 18 inches of top soil on top of the clay. He was going to leave the top soil "said it was good stable soil" I told him there was no such thing, and made him remove it.
That's when he hit the water table in late October.
Everything else you asked was correct.

Good lord, what a shitshow. Hope you can get this sorted without a teardown

 

[6768rogues]

I've talked to one Lawyer already. He said he thinks that I have to give my contractor the opportunity to fix the problem before I can sue him? I`d like to find one that specializes in this area.

You want the problem to go away. I agree that you should give the contractor an opportunity to fix it. If he does, the problem goes away. The engineer you consulted could give you a plan that the contractor can build or the contractor can get an engineered solution. I would not accept something that he designs on a napkin in his truck. I would pay the engineer to inspect it to make sure it conforms to the design. Then it puts some responsibility for failure on him. Otherwise, move on to legal solutions.

 

[Radix2]

Is the building (roof, framing) built now as well? Or us it just the masonry up so far?

Still can't understand how a 42in deep trench footing can slide sideways. And if it did, I seriously doubt it being 12 in wide would make a difference. The fact that it is not properly located under the block is is the worse issue.

From the sounds of it, it might be easiest to tear it out to fix.

Darn.

 

[TRWham]

I've talked to one Lawyer already. He said he thinks that I have to give my contractor the opportunity to fix the problem before I can sue him? I`d like to find one that specializes in this area.

Check your contract. Most any contractor will include language that gives him some period to "cure" whatever the issue is. In this case, I think the real issue is bad dirt that will take some work to remedy. I am usually happy to go with whatever the engineer says will work, but I am very skeptical in this case that more footing will help if it doesn't have anything solid to bear on.

We frequently use helical steel piers to deal with soft soil. They are cost effective and not disruptive to install. You might be able to sink some next to that buried wall that pretends to be a footing and pour a grade beam across the top. Pin that beam to the existing concrete and it might just work.

 

[Ron Shaw]

Is the building (roof, framing) built now as well? Or us it just the masonry up so far?

Still can't understand how a 42in deep trench footing can slide sideways. And if it did, I seriously doubt it being 12 in wide would make a difference. The fact that it is not properly located under the block is is the worse issue.

From the sounds of it, it might be easiest to tear it out to fix.

Darn.

The building structure is complete with roof except the floor-slab.
(I`m responsible for the floor and prep due to I`m installing radiant heated floors) The GC blamed the footing pitching inboard because of no backfill on the last 2ft of exposed footings inside the building. But, that couldn't be done because he still had forms on the footings from the last repair to support the block. Plus still needed some top soil removed.
The engineer agreed that contributed to the footings moving along with the over pour on the outside of the footings. (acted like a lever when frost got under it) Bottom line is we`ll never know if a 12in wide footing would've prevented it from moving? The GC knows he`s screwed because he didn't pour a 12in footing like the plans say.

 

[Ron Shaw]

Check your contract. Most any contractor will include language that gives him some period to "cure" whatever the issue is. In this case, I think the real issue is bad dirt that will take some work to remedy. I am usually happy to go with whatever the engineer says will work, but I am very skeptical in this case that more footing will help if it doesn't have anything solid to bear on.

We frequently use helical steel piers to deal with soft soil. They are cost effective and not disruptive to install. You might be able to sink some next to that buried wall that pretends to be a footing and pour a grade beam across the top. Pin that beam to the existing concrete and it might just work.

The engineer also suggested pilings - piers as a better fix than pining another 8in of footings. I`m just concerned that the 30-50K will scare the GC away. Then what?

 

[ConCretin]

The engineer also suggested pilings - piers as a better fix than pining another 8in of footings. I`m just concerned that the 30-50K will scare the GC away. Then what?

Your contractor is only responsible for proper execution of the original design. If existing soil conditions require an upgraded foundation system, that will unfortunately be on your dime. I guess you could try to assert that the upgraded system is now required because he botched the original design but that might prove to be a stretch.

 

[Ron Shaw]

Your contractor is only responsible for proper execution of the original design. If existing soil conditions require an upgraded foundation system, that will unfortunately be on your dime. I guess you could try to assert that the upgraded system is now required because he botched the original design but that might prove to be a stretch.

Who was responsible for getting a soil sample prior to starting the job?

 

[Charlie51]

Now that it's done, we all know what should have been done. Hindsight is 100 percent.

 

[TRWham]

The engineer also suggested pilings - piers as a better fix than pining another 8in of footings. I`m just concerned that the 30-50K will scare the GC away. Then what?

I take your point about chasing him off, but an ineffective fix is not really a solution, even if he pays for it.

The piers alone usually do not add that much cost. We pay about $15 per foot of depth (minimum for each is about 10'). They are usually spaced about 7' center to center and the grade beam is minimum 20" deep with 4 #4 bars (2 low and 2 high that go over each pier). We typically go 20 to 40 feet deep, but you never know. There can be a 10 foot difference between adjacent piers. We did nearly 60 piers 40' deep on one job, but that was three separate additions in some really soft soil (at least for our area).

Who was responsible for getting a soil sample prior to starting the job?

Our contract states that the client can request and pay for soil testing, but they usually do not. In my experience, the building inspector probes the footing prior to pour. If he finds it too soft, he punts, and we're off to the engineer for a solution. Most often it's helicals, but occasionally a wider footing works, and that usually means 24" wide. Our typical minimum footings are 16" wide by 12" deep with 2 #4 bars, but it depends on the size of the structure (taller means more footing).

 

[Ron Shaw]

I take your point about chasing him off, but an ineffective fix is not really a solution, even if he pays for it.

The piers alone usually do not add that much cost. We pay about $15 per foot of depth (minimum for each is about 10'). They are usually spaced about 7' center to center and the grade beam is minimum 20" deep with 4 #4 bars (2 low and 2 high that go over each pier). We typically go 20 to 40 feet deep, but you never know. There can be a 10 foot difference between adjacent piers. We did nearly 60 piers 40' deep on one job, but that was three separate additions in some really soft soil (at least for our area).



Our contract states that the client can request and pay for soil testing, but they usually do not. In my experience, the building inspector probes the footing prior to pour. If he finds it too soft, he punts, and we're off to the engineer for a solution. Most often it's helicals, but occasionally a wider footing works, and that usually means 24" wide. Our typical minimum footings are 16" wide by 12" deep with 2 #4 bars, but it depends on the size of the structure (taller means more footing).

I just got a quote for 20 piers @ 28k plus $10 a foot past 20 ft.
For a 39x50 building.
I talked to a foundation guy I`ve known for a while that I trust. He said he don't think it will move again, once I back fill and pour the slab. Especially since i`m heating the floor. He suggested as a compromise that I write up a contract with the GC to guarantee that if it moves again that he`s liable to fix it? That assuming I can live with the wall being bowed in.

 

[GMCGarage]

I just got a quote for 20 piers @ 28k plus $10 a foot past 20 ft.
For a 39x50 building.
I talked to a foundation guy I`ve known for a while that I trust. He said he don't think it will move again, once I back fill and pour the slab. Especially since i`m heating the floor. He suggested as a compromise that I write up a contract with the GC to guarantee that if it moves again that he`s liable to fix it? That assuming I can live with the wall being bowed in.

NO. No. You paid for a product that is not defective. What is said contractor dies tomorrow? whos going to fix it if it move?

Should be no compromise here. Why do we accept work from those that strive for mediocrity?

 

[Ron Shaw]

NO. No. You paid for a product that is not defective. What is said contractor dies tomorrow? whos going to fix it if it move?

Should be no compromise here. Why do we accept work from those that strive for mediocrity?[/QUOTE

Good point. I guess I`m acting desperate.
Probably shouldn't take the easy way out. If its on my dime then I may take the chance and consider it?