Just had a 32x28’ foundation put in, and during the pour everything measured out pretty well, but now that stem walls are in, from corner to corner I’m about 7/8” out of square. Im new to the framing game, and wondering if 1” corner to corner difference will lead to more work down the road with trusses and roof sheathing, it if there is a rule of thumb for what is square enough. I’m very OCD so want to get it dead on, but at the same time will be a decent amount of extra work on the front end if it’s necessary. Any thoughts?
Foundation, what’s square enough
- Thread starter Smitty75
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napaul
Active member
square it up on concrete stem walls as best you can by splitting the difference and hanging walls over by 3/8" cause it will just keep compounding as you go up and it will eat at you. better to have a square building to work from and parge the stem walls a little thicker to cover then getting to roof and having trusses out, corners out, and having to cut your roof sheeting and lumber to fit.
Thanks, that’s on par with what I was thinking. Just need to figure out which corner is out of square and start from there. I’ll pull some measurements tomorrow out of each corner and see where they fall. Thanks for the advice.
ddawg16
Well-known member
7/8"? That's all?
You have nothing to worry about.
Think about it.....from one corner to the opposite corner...there is a 7/8" difference....if you go in 7/16", it will now be perfectly square.
If your garage was 10'x10'....yea, it would be a slight issue.
But at 28-32'? I'll draw it on cad tonight and show you just how little that wall will be out of square. I'm guessing a 1/4" or less.....and 1/4" over 28'? That is nothing.
If you try to build the wall out to compensate, that will be more obvious.
You have nothing to worry about.
Think about it.....from one corner to the opposite corner...there is a 7/8" difference....if you go in 7/16", it will now be perfectly square.
If your garage was 10'x10'....yea, it would be a slight issue.
But at 28-32'? I'll draw it on cad tonight and show you just how little that wall will be out of square. I'm guessing a 1/4" or less.....and 1/4" over 28'? That is nothing.
If you try to build the wall out to compensate, that will be more obvious.
larry4406
Well-known member
+1!!
corvette43056
Well-known member
+2
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Dagny
Well-known member
If you square the form how can the slab be out of square?
JoeMcGov
Well-known member
In addition to the OP's request for opinion, the morale of the story is: check your foundation forms, in particular stem/pony walls, BEFORE the concrete is poured.
The unfortunate part is that I paid good money to have this done, and waited several months as they were booked out. Doesn’t seem to be much pride in work anymore, everyone is rushing from one job to the next. Lesson learned.
southernfriedcj
Well-known member
Why?
You don't frame with the foundation. You pop your lines square and frame square.
If the foundation is out far enough it can be fixed after framing.
I've seen a slab cut on one side and poured under the framing on the other, I've seen basement walls cut and I've seen block crawlspaces where walls were furred out from 6" down to zero.
ANYTHING is fixable. You NEVER frame out of square.
southernfriedcj
Well-known member
Folks, if your foundation is out 1" and you don't know it you will probably never know it.
Every framer has seen much worse and they won't even mention it. They will square the lines up and go.
Some framers hang the sheathing over the foundation(my business partner's method). Some framers flush the sheathing with the foundation(my method).
A foundation 1" out of square on a 32x28 building will not even be a conversation for the framer. They will say "We're 1" out, bring the back right corner in a 1/2" and the front left corner out a 1/2" " and it will never be discussed or thought about again.
Every framer has seen much worse and they won't even mention it. They will square the lines up and go.
Some framers hang the sheathing over the foundation(my business partner's method). Some framers flush the sheathing with the foundation(my method).
A foundation 1" out of square on a 32x28 building will not even be a conversation for the framer. They will say "We're 1" out, bring the back right corner in a 1/2" and the front left corner out a 1/2" " and it will never be discussed or thought about again.
Horror Business
Well-known member
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- Apr 19, 2014
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- 503
Yup. Square your plate and frame up from there.
rayra
Well-known member
Square the framing, ignore the slab. Flush-face the sill plates to the 'presentation' side of the structure.
It shouldn't be too hard to do, diagonal measurement (hypotenuse) should be 42' 6 1/4". Checking both diagonals should quickly tell you where you need to adjust.
napaul
Active member
Like previously mentioned measure diagonally see which corner is out and adjust walls and plates accordingly. Doesbt seem much to fuss about but your at a stage you can correct and start from a square why wouldn't you? No extra money or work just extra few minutes measuring and chalking lines out to proper location
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Square the bottom plates, ignore the difference in the overhang, and get to framing.
Odds are good that the slab sides aren't laser-straight, anyway.
Odds are good that the slab sides aren't laser-straight, anyway.
matt_i
Well-known member
You're messing with an angle that approximates 7/16" over 22 feet.
So 0.437/22*12 = 0.437/264 = 0.00165. My windows scientific calculator can't take the inverse tangent of that but my phone does, its 0.094 degrees off. Roughly a thickness of sheathing off, on either end in 22 feet is not bad.
So 0.437/22*12 = 0.437/264 = 0.00165. My windows scientific calculator can't take the inverse tangent of that but my phone does, its 0.094 degrees off. Roughly a thickness of sheathing off, on either end in 22 feet is not bad.
Last year I tore down the old well house and expanded it a little. I spent a lot of time getting the plates square and the building went up quickly and easily. Currently I am re-building a 14 x 16 shed next to the house. It has stone walls up to about 42" so the wall framing remained. It is a little out of square, a little out of plumb and all of those "little" discrepancies add up and drive you nuts all the way out. I would spend the time to make the plate as square as possible. Now is the time to do it. Otherwise as you go up, you will be looking for that 1" to squirt out someplace
Milton Shaw
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- 4,835
In construction, square and level are just concepts, not exacts. Every thing is out of square if you measure close enough. Even gauge blocks are only guaranteed to be square to 1/1,000,000 from what I remember. You will be fine with just 7/8" that is close enough.
Bunchgrass
Well-known member
Only the TV builders check for level, plumb, and square and "miraculously" --- they tell us "it is." Reality is stressing about 7/8" over that distance will hurt your health more than your shop. Believe me --- I WAS that guy.
Kaizen
Well-known member
**** happens. i checked my guy's forms 3 times before he poured the stem wall on mine. Some of it still bulged out even though supported adequately.
Your stem wall should be thicker then 5.5 inches right? pick the longest wall and snap a chalk like from outside corner to outside corner. make sure the whole line is on the concrete. in other words the wall will probably have some bow to it. square the adjoining walls off of that using same method and verify with 3/4/5 method. i'd change it to 6/8/10 for this size.
The building framing will be square if you know what you are doing. this will not be a problem. If the end to end measurements are off adjust the whole rectangle so it splits the difference and the sheathing/siding covers the top of the stem wall.
sberry
Banned
Its already off. Lean back towards correcting it. No point in going with it or adding to the error.
napaul
Active member
forms will have some deflection from weight of concrete poured. grand scheme its not a big deal but I agree with previous poster your there you know about it so why not correct it while its easy to do and not have something in back of your mind. fix it move on to next task
klassenl
Well-known member
The day after the forms were off of my slab I checked the diagonals (is that a word). My guy was off a full 12 inches. I laughed. He made it right.
Prospecter
Well-known member
GIT: Love that picture! About as clear as I've seen.
OP: As others have said, just plumb / true up as you go at each stage.
OP: As others have said, just plumb / true up as you go at each stage.
7/8" doesn't matter. Heck, 7/8" over a 43 feet diagonal is quite good. If you were out 3" over the same you might have something to complain about.
And forget the diagonal, did you snap chalk lines to check the concrete for bulges along the outside? That can be more of a problem. But in the end any good framer should have no problem laying out.
And forget the diagonal, did you snap chalk lines to check the concrete for bulges along the outside? That can be more of a problem. But in the end any good framer should have no problem laying out.
ddawg16
Well-known member
Best I can tell, you're looking at about 5/8" off
The blue line is the diagonal, black lines are 90 degree walls and the red lines are the 'as built' walls to meet the diagonal (7/8" added to the diagonal)
Good illustration.....I was going to do that on AutoCad last night....forgot....
To the OP....are the walls (side to side, Front to back) 'exactly' the same length?
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
If it's not a Rectangle it's either a Trapezoid or Parallelogram...
ddawg16
Well-known member
We know....that is why I was asking if the opposing sides were the exact same lengths....
Anyway....assuming the Front/Back is the same width....and left/right sides are exactly the same (Parallelogram), then I'm about 1/2" off.
In other words.....if the OP sheaths his roof using one wall as the 'line'...when he gets to the other side....the sheathing will be about 1/2" off relative to the wall.
This is pretty much in range with what Git came up with.
The variable....if one wall is not exactly the same length as the opposing wall, then we have a trapezoid....which changes things a little.
But....at the end of the day....the difference is so small, and the garage is so large....the only place the issue is going to show up is on the roof....and the error is so small, it will be hidden by the typical framing tolerances (translation...close is good enough).
Let me state it this way.....in the framing world, that garage is pretty f'ing square.
Now.....if you want to talk about 'not square'....then lets talk about my neighbor (poor lady). She let a contractor talk her into converting her detached rear garage into a living space.
Not sure what was wrong with his chalk line....he added 20' to the side of the garage...if you follow the line of the back wall of the garage....the corner of the addition is about 8" off that line.
On a related note......besides being overcharged for sub-standard work...and him forging checks to the tune of about $20K...he did not have a contractors license...did not pull permits...and is now hiding in Mexico. She had to get 'real' contractor to pull off ALL the inside drywall so building and safety can inspect the electrical and plumbing.
You should see the roof....about a 1:12 pitch....and they used shingles.... no eaves...no drip edge....looks like a ******* stucco brick....
readhead
Well-known member
That is not far out but I will add one thought. Try to keep the truss bearing walls parallel and the correct width and make the corrections on the end walls. That is assuming the trusses have been ordered. Of course if they haven’t been ordered or the roof is being cut then the width can be anything.
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Ah, 10th grade Geometry. I remember it well. Early 1970's-had a 20's-something teacher who wore tight sweaters and miniskirts. She was tantalizing; think Sharon Stone in "Basic Instinct"
I really paid attention in that class.
I'm late to the party here, but have you measured squareness to the inside our outside of the corners? Could it be an issue with the thickness of the wall at the corner?
Get a helper and measure from inside to inside as well as outside. Maybe it's not as far off as you think.
Get a helper and measure from inside to inside as well as outside. Maybe it's not as far off as you think.