Frackin zoning laws - impervious lot coverage

[tfalk]

Finally got the garage all figured out.... 24x30 attached, overlap the back of the house 7 feet so my bilco doors and stairs would be inside the garage. Made an appointment with the zoning officer since I knew I would need a variance for impervious lot coverage - 25309 lot, allowed 25%, I'm just under that with the house, driveway, pool apron, sidewalks and sheds...

Zoning officer pulls up the address on google earth... wait a minute, what's all that around your pool and side of your yard? Landscape stone... no good, they consider that to be impervious lot coverage....

I figured I would need a simple variance, he tells me the 720 sqft isn't the problem. Adding all the stone areas puts me about 6000 sq ft over and anything over 1000 sqft they will require me to put in a dry well. Guesses between $8K and $15K...

Guess no garage for me. Anyone have any good ideas on where I go next???? Bad enough no garage but I'm about 6Ksqft out of zoning.... wife went ballistic when I told her we might have to rip out all the stone around the pool and put in a dry well just to get legal, never mind building anything else...

Here's what it currently looks like and where I was 'planning' on putting the garage. He said all the white rock around the pool and the maroon stone along the side by the trailer all would have to go.

 

[Strouty]

Wow, that *****. I will ask, why would you want landscape stone around the pool?

Also how do they figure crushed stone is impervious?

 

[burger]

Ridiculous. Those stones should pass water better than grass. FWIW, I don't think the dry well will cost that much. A buddy and his dad had one done for $2-3k for a 26x24 garage.

 

[chris142]

You should ask to meet him at his office and bring a Sizzler gift certificate.

 

[Strouty]

Is this somerset township, nj? If so I can't find anything in the ordinance about the impervious area. I would ask them to show the definition. Unless it is specifically defined the town would legally be required to use the definition of the term impervious.

 

[CJM8515]

I think you need to talk to a lawyer and go over this guys head. Doesnt make sense as stone would let in more than grass.

Then again it is NJ.. I know all to well.

 

[sublimate]

Never would have believed it, but sure 'nuf:

Impervious cover – Any structure, surface or improvement that reduces and/or prevents absorption of storm water into land. Porous paving, paver blocks, gravel, crushed stone, crushed shell, elevated structures (including boardwalks), and other similar structures, surfaces or improvements are considered impervious cover. Grass, lawns or any other vegetation are not considered impervious cover.

 

[Strouty]

Well that *****. I guess the OP is going to have a fire sale on landscape stone.

 

[tfalk]

Wow, that *****. I will ask, why would you want landscape stone around the pool?

Actually, the stone around the pool is delaware river bed stone, pretty much more like 1/2 - 3/4 inch pebbles. Doesn't hurt your feet to walk on it.... Didn't want to spend the rest of my life cleaning cut grass or mulch out of the pool every week. I'm open to suggestions if anyone has a better idea... can't do pavers or more concrete... Toyed with doing a ground cover deck but that would put me over on lot coverage as well as impervious lot coverage. Wife said why don't we convert the entire area to sand? Hmmm... other than attracting every stray cat in the neighborhood, might not be a bad idea.

Yeah, it *****... 1/2 acre lot and you are only allowed to effectively use 1/8 of that. Since we are directly on the circle of the cul-de-sac and where our house is on the lot, we pretty much have the longest driveway in the development. I'm OK with changing the stone by the trailer on the left side of the picture to mulch or grass but really, the pool area is the problem.

I have to admit, the zoning guy was really good talking about it, made a point that unless someone comes to him and asks him if our survey meets zoning, they don't come out looking for problems. Good thing, pretty much everyone in the neighborhood with an in-ground pool is probably over as well.

 

[tcianci]

They obviously aren't going to give you your permit for the garage but it would be a cold day in hell before i'd modify any of that stone. There may be a downside to having it there in the event of the sale of the property. In the meantime they can piss and moan and threaten all they want.

A a contractor, I have seen this movie before. The have their rules but they only apply to those who choose to let them apply. If it was my house, I would totally ignore them

 

[Strouty]

They make a grass paver for parking areas and walking paths. It is a structure that keeps the ground from distorting from the loads. Designed specifically to combat ordinances like yours. You could probably shrink the area around the pool, but if you are 6000 square feet over, I think the garage is off the table until you do the dry well.

 

[DekeT]

I think you need to talk to a lawyer and go over this guys head. Doesnt make sense as stone would let in more than grass.

Then again it is NJ.. I know all to well.

Well that isn't going to do anything but waste his money.

 

[2nrguy]

Stupid question, why the need for a dry well??

 

[Strouty]

I guess another question is why does a dry well cost so much? I thought it was just designed to catch overflow from "impervious" surfaces. Seems like a simple concept.

 

[Architorture]

Buy a few pallets of sod...lay them over your stone...go get garage permit...remove sod

 

[barnee]

Its probably not a drywell but more of a "rain garden" which is sized to trap a quantity of water based on impervious area, and then have the water filter down through layers of mulch, plants and filter media to clean the water prior to it being reintroduced to the groundwater table. Supposed to help remove phosphorus from impervious areas runoff. That's the reason that gravel is considered impervious because even though water passes through it, there is nothing to help clean and filter the water so it has no cleaning value.

 

[CJM8515]

Well that isn't going to do anything but waste his money.

Really. So it's not worth it to fight the bs. Wow.

 

[bczygan]

The dry well is a method of retention of water so excess storm runoff water isn't added to the storm water system.

The method of limiting hard surface area percentages is one method of keeping that excess flow to a minimum. It is a not too sophisticated method. But it doesn't require complicated calculations to figure out actual flows.

Retention is another method that can achieve the same result. Dry wells are one way. They retain and then drain slowly into the ground. A cistern is another. A cistern can also store water for irrigation, cutting your water bill.

See if you can work with the jurisdiction to see if you can use retention to solve the runoff problem. It may require your engineer talking to their engineer. You need to find out the basis for their percentage calculations. Some places allow no more runoff from your property in a developed state, than it had in an undeveloped state. Other places are more lenient. You need to show them that you will meet their allowable runoff rates, using your alternate methods. They MAY allow this.

 

[DekeT]

Really. So it's not worth it to fight the bs. Wow.

You did not read any of the actual facts surrounding the circumstances did you? I don't see what BS you are referring to. The zoning ordinance is clear on the application. What possible "fight" would you consider possible?

 

[Strouty]

The dry well is a method of retention of water so excess storm runoff water isn't added to the storm water system.

The method of limiting hard surface area percentages is one method of keeping that excess flow to a minimum. It is a not too sophisticated method. But it doesn't require complicated calculations to figure out actual flows.

Retention is another method that can achieve the same result. Dry wells are one way. They retain and then drain slowly into the ground. A cistern is another. A cistern can also store water for irrigation, cutting your water bill.

See if you can work with the jurisdiction to see if you can use retention to solve the runoff problem. It may require your engineer talking to their engineer. You need to find out the basis for their percentage calculations. Some places allow no more runoff from your property in a developed state, than it had in an undeveloped state. Other places are more lenient. You need to show them that you will meet their allowable runoff rates, using your alternate methods. They MAY allow this.

You were not kidding.

The problem that I can see is that the OP has 6000 square feet too much and he wants to add another 750 to that. They may want a massive elaborate system. It may be easier to remove some of the landscape stone. Bill is right, you should try and find out who to talk with, probably a local civil engineer, I bet the guy from the town would be able to point you in the right direction. I would not snoop too hard outside of their office, because it sounds like once this becomes a "known" issue, they will make the OP conform.

 

[bczygan]

You were not kidding.

The problem that I can see is that the OP has 6000 square feet too much and he wants to add another 750 to that. They may want a massive elaborate system. It may be easier to remove some of the landscape stone. Bill is right, you should try and find out who to talk with, probably a local civil engineer, I bet the guy from the town would be able to point you in the right direction. I would not snoop too hard outside of their office, because it sounds like once this becomes a "known" issue, they will make the OP conform.

I've worked these calculations for commercial sites with retention ponds where the runoff was restricted to undeveloped flows. These site were critical, as developers wanted to maximize development of the site, and give as little space as possible to soft surface and retention ponds.

There is some calculus involved, which I didn't understand, but still used the equations.

The permeability of all the surfaces needs to be measured and used in the calculations.

Gravel can be varied in it's permeability. A large smooth river rock can pass water more readily than a hard packed limestone with fines under a vehicle traffic area.

You can even use rain barrels and bladders to collect water.

Find out the city engineers underlying maximum runoff flow rates, that these percentage rules are based on. Note, it may also be the water and sewer authority who has input or authority.

Bill

 

[CJM8515]

You did not read any of the actual facts surrounding the circumstances did you? I don't see what BS you are referring to. The zoning ordinance is clear on the application. What possible "fight" would you consider possible?

We dont have the actual law right in front of us now do we? There could be loopholes as well. IE in my town they tax you on a shed, BUT only if its above 9x9 dimensionally. So I could build 10 of them suckers and they cant do anything about it.

 

[bczygan]

We dont have the actual law right in front of us now do we? There could be loopholes as well. IE in my town they tax you on a shed, BUT only if its above 9x9 dimensionally. So I could build 10 of them suckers and they cant do anything about it.

And some places allow you to exceed the limits for runoff, but charge you for the privilege.

 

[Strouty]

Our city is now charging for all impervious surfaces, it tags onto your sewer bill. I am glad I have a little house and a little driveway. Some of the big commercial buildings were getting charged and extra $75k a year.

 

[CJM8515]

And some places allow you to exceed the limits for runoff, but charge you for the privilege.

Which is why a lawyer is a wise idea as well as to look further into the zoning laws. But apparently some people think this is an open and shut case just based on the OP info...

 

[Strouty]

Which is why a lawyer is a wise idea as well as to look further into the zoning laws. But apparently some people think this is an open and shut case just based on the OP info...

A lawyer is a really bad first step. I would be rational, it sounds like the town has a good person to talk with. Then the OP can get all the rules and discuss it with someone who handles these issues. Too many people think a lawyer is the answer to all the problems. I think a lawyer is bad advice right now. If the town was saying you have to remove all the stone and your pool by July 1st, then I would say get a lawyer, but this is not the case.

 

[CJM8515]

A lawyer is a really bad first step. I would be rational, it sounds like the town has a good person to talk with. Then the OP can get all the rules and discuss it with someone who handles these issues. Too many people think a lawyer is the answer to all the problems. I think a lawyer is bad advice right now. If the town was saying you have to remove all the stone and your pool by July 1st, then I would say get a lawyer, but this is not the case.

I say a lawyer was a good step as a lot of the info is written in legaleze that the common person cant translate. Of course I wouldnt call them asap but down the line after trying to look up everything myself. BUT its good to seek the advice of one, sometimes they will give it for free IF they think you have a case. If they do give the info and say you have a case its a good inkling that you may get what you want. They say heck no dont bother..well then maybe not worth it.

 

[JimR1998]

I went through a similar situation here in PA and was told it's based on some kind of EPA guidance.

The exact rule here is... any additional imprevious surface over 1000 sqft needed an engineered stormwater plan, hence your dry well. Other things are acceptable too, like a rain garden, etc. Over 500sqft needed an approved stormwater plan, based on a 30 page document of how to calculate water runoff and how to address it. This is regardless of how big your lot is. You could have 10 acres and want to put a 25x40 patio in the middle-- gotta get an engineer.

Going over the allowed impervious by zoning is a different matter. It either gets approved or not. Then, depending on size, you may be subject to the plan above.

Gravel is also considered impervious in my township and a few surrounding areas. It sounds like they are trying to avoid compacted stone dust under gravel, or unfinshed gravel ready for someone to quietly come in and blacktop over it.

If you can show that your stone is permeable-- that there isn't landscape fabric underneath that seriously slows water from passing-- and that your gravel driveway is decorative and not temporary waiting for a blacktop crew, they should consider that as permeable. I know a few people who had to provide a written explanation along with their permit which was sufficient.

I'd try for the variance first and submit your full plan. See what the written response is from your zoning board before you give up.

 

[JimR1998]

Oh, and I wouldn't start with a lawyer. Their expertise is law and whether the decision is in accordance with the zoning statute and whether that the zoning statute is in-fact lawfully enacted, doesn't create an undue burden, etc...

The best way to start would be with a planning engineer to represent you and prepare your application for the variance, which would include a full site plan current and proposed. They do this a lot and should know how to get things done in your township. For me it would have been $3000 for this work plus time and travel for meetings. Kind of like a lawyer's retainer.

Too many curve balls and false starts for me, so I just decided not to bother with the garage.

 

[pop pop]

Then again it is NJ.. I know all to well.

See, 6 posts and there is your real problem ;-)

 

[rburke65]

I'm in NE Ohio and own 5.3 acres in the country. When I was in the process of getting my permits together, the first thing I was told was that I needed a "down spout permit" at $185. THEY wanted to know where the water from my 32' x 56' roof was going to go. My reply was on the ground. Wrong answer ***** breath! Into a stream, creek, or drainage ditch....none of which I had, so I was informed I had to dig a dry well. When the inspector came and I question the reasoning behind this edit, he told me to just run the pipe out and drain it back into the woods where it had been going for the last 56,000,000 years. I'm glad that there was at least one reasonable guy out there. Good luck.

 

[larry4406]

I build houses in Montgomery County MD.

Our site plans require us to install rain leaders on the downspouts. One community of large 2-5 acre lots, I connect the downspouts to 4 drywells each 8'x8'x5' deep stone pits with sand underneath and another high density community the rain leaders connect to piping which goes to massive sand filters and underground vaults. All of this to recharge the aqufiers vs storm water runoff so as to protect water quality of streams and allegedly the Chesapeake Bay. Another community of ours has pervious paving (I have no details on this, not involved).

 

[RVDan]

Isn't it as simple as hauling out the stone and laying sod, get permit, build garage, remove sod, lay stone?

 

[Chaznsc]

I am a Civil Engineer in GA. We do detention calculations for every kind of development, but generally speaking, residential areas have a common detention facility. I would want to see the ordinance requiring / limiting your impervious surface. A rain garden or a detention area would not cost what he quoted you IMO. If you are only offsetting the percent you are OVER, then your system would be something you could potentially construct.

Again, get a copy of the regs from the guy who helped you. Go from there.

 

[DekeT]

I say a lawyer was a good step as a lot of the info is written in legaleze that the common person cant translate. Of course I wouldnt call them asap but down the line after trying to look up everything myself. BUT its good to seek the advice of one, sometimes they will give it for free IF they think you have a case. If they do give the info and say you have a case its a good inkling that you may get what you want. They say heck no dont bother..well then maybe not worth it.

Nonsense, zoning ordinances are written in plain language so that it is easy for the common person to follow. I don't see what possible action a lawyer can help you with that will result in an outcome beneficial to you. If you think a zoning official or the board of appeals are either intimidated or ever outmaneuvered by legal representation you will have pigs with wings. Their lawyers pore over every inch of the ordinance before enacting and assess the risk of potential litigation. You are standing in quicksand.

 

[finn]

A lawyer is less than useless to solve an engineering problem.

Would you recommend a bricklayer to do brain surgery too?

 

[CJM8515]

You guys have zero clue that what works where you are wont fly in NJ. If they can overly complicate and make something difficult they will. But I digress, Im wrong, your right..have a nice day.

 

[mrspeedyt]

throw grass or flower seed on your stone... maybe it will do the trick.

 

[pablo94sc]

OP, I've been dealing with some bad drainage on my property thought this stuff might help you toward getting that garage approved.

1. You're 720sqft garage is more like 1100-1200sqft of impervious material when calculating rainfall runoff due to the pitch of the roof.

2. Explain to the planning board that gravel needs to be calculated at a percentage when calculating storm runoff as it's not 100% impervious like a roof (see NDS link below for examples).

3. NDS has an online calculator that is a good start for getting an idea of how large/how many drywells (or soakaways) that you need. - http://www.ndspro.com/flo-well-calculator

3a. The NDS map shows most of Jersey at 1.75"-2.0" per 30 minutes of rainfall, which is what NDS uses for their calculations. It's a good starting point for you to go to the city with.

3b. You'll need to determine from the city/county engineers what they use for the 25 year rainfall. This map is a helpful reference to check against their figures - http://www.nws.noaa.gov/oh/hdsc/PF_documents/TechnicalPaper_No40.pdf

4. You often can include your french drains in the total volume of your drywell(s) as they hold/leach water just as much as your wells.

5. The local university's geology department is a great resource to find out what your soil type is, the local water table height, etc. The USGS is another great resource here.

5a. If you have a lot of clay like me, you may need a bigger boat, err, drywell.

Good luck!

PS: Drywells aren't that expensive if you do the work yourself. It's basically a hole lined with fabric, stone, and a brick/plastic shell that holds water.

 

[sublimate]

1. You're 720sqft garage is more like 1100-1200sqft of impervious material when calculating rainfall runoff due to the pitch of the roof.

How does that work? Seems like rainfall over an area is the same regardless of the pitch of the roof.
All the calcs I've seen just goes by sqft, without a pitch adjustment.