Framing nails

[Cuda416]

My pole barn kit supplier mistakenly sent loose nails for my barn when I'd specified nails for my nail gun (Bostitch F21PL v1). In good form, they are offering to make it right by having me buy them locally and they will reimburse me. They are supposed to be 3-1/2 hot dipped, ring shank and as I look for the equivalent nails, I'm being told by them that 3-1/4 will be "good enough" when what they sent was 3-1/2".

Is that a legit claim?

I cannot find these locally (San Antonio) , anywhere (yet) but I was able to find these online

http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=15811

$120+$53(s/h) for 4000

But they are spiral/twist shank. Are these better or worse than R/S?

Any help would be great

 

[lakeroadster]

I'm being told by them that 3-1/4 will be "good enough" when what they sent was 3-1/2".

Who is "them"? If it is the barn manufacturer they need to back that up in writing, for your sake and to show the building inspector if it is a permitted build. The 3-1/4" will not match the drawings.

And Spiral/Twist Shanks are not equivalent to Ring Shanks. Drive one of each into a 4x4 and try to pull them out.

So, to summarize, only use what the manufacturer specifies, and if they specify something that doesn't match the drawings, the manufacturer either needs to revise the drawings, or give you something in writing on company letterhead, that is signed, to back up there advice.

 

[Cuda416]

Who is "them"? If it is the barn manufacturer they need to back that up in writing, for your sake and to show the building inspector if it is a permitted build. The 3-1/4" will not match the drawings.

And Spiral/Twist Shanks are not equivalent to Ring Shanks. Drive one of each into a 4x4 and try to pull them out.

So, to summarize, only use what the manufacturer specifies, and if they specify something that doesn't match the drawings, the manufacturer either needs to revise the drawings, or give you something in writing on company letterhead, that is signed, to back up there advice.

Thanks, sounds like ring shanks are harder to pull out then? The company is diypolebarns. They've been great at making a couple of logistical mistakes "right" so far. i was the one who found the sprial shank nails but i have never used them so I thought I'd ask here.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

Most applications that used to use 3 1/2" nails now with nail gun nails use 3 1/4". Also the specs (nailing schedule) will typically use call for an extra nail or two at each joint.

 

[Musicinabottle]

Ring shanks hold quite a bit better. As Lakeroadster stated, try pulling them out and you'll see the difference.

 

[lakeroadster]

Thanks, sounds like ring shanks are harder to pull out then?

They are quite different.

Spirals are designed for hardwood and dense wood. If you use them on softer woods, like the pine your barn is made from, they have a higher tendency to split the wood. Which you don't want.

Ring shanks are designed for the softer woods, like the pine in your barn kit.

Ref: https://rvevans.wordpress.com/2013/...tween-screw-shank-nails-and-ring-shank-nails/

 

[Cuda416]

Most applications that used to use 3 1/2" nails now with nail gun nails use 3 1/4". Also the specs (nailing schedule) will typically use call for an extra nail or two at each joint.

Understood, in this case, I was simply told 3-1/4 will be good as they 3-1/2 are spec'd because hand nailing is somehow "different" than using a nail gun. I find that a little suspect to be honest.

Ring shanks hold quite a bit better. As Lakeroadster stated, try pulling them out and you'll see the difference.

They are quite different.

Spirals are designed for hardwood and dense wood. If you use them on softer woods, like the pine your barn is made from, they have a higher tendency to split the wood. Which you don't want.

Ring shanks are designed for the softer woods, like the pine in your barn kit.

Ref: https://rvevans.wordpress.com/2013/...tween-screw-shank-nails-and-ring-shank-nails/

Thanks everyone for clarifying. i can certainly understand now what and why they are used in different conditions. I'll keep searching for 3-1/2 nails.

Much appreciated.

 

[Cuda416]

While I'm here, does anyone have a good source for 3-1/2", hot dipped, 21 deg, plastic collated, ring shank nails that will fit in a Bostitch, F21PL?

 

[theoldwizard1]

They are supposed to be 3-1/2 hot dipped, ring shank ...

I have never seen that type of framing nail setup for a nail gun ! I would spec that for sure !

 

[Cuda416]

Alright, so here is the latest.... I'm not happy with this at all...

diypolebarns sent me a new copy of the drawings they originally sent me with added notes everywhere saying things like "16D or .131 nail gun nails", no mention of ring shank for the smaller nails (which was in an email to me), no mention of an engineer actually looking at it other then being told "The engineers specs them for smaller nails but we put the 16D spec on the drawing". Isn't that slighly NOT kosher?

My stuff, family etc will at one time or another be in this barn, I want it safe and built using the correct items. Am I over-reacting ?

 

[rlitman]

If the new drawings are stamped by the engineer, then it seems safe to assume that the engineer looked at it, right?

 

[Cuda416]

If the new drawings are stamped by the engineer, then it seems safe to assume that the engineer looked at it, right?

They are not stamped

 

[lakeroadster]

Alright, so here is the latest.... I'm not happy with this at all...

diypolebarns sent me a new copy of the drawings they originally sent me with added notes everywhere saying things like "16D or .131 nail gun nails", no mention of ring shank for the smaller nails (which was in an email to me), no mention of an engineer actually looking at it other then being told "The engineers specs them for smaller nails but we put the 16D spec on the drawing". Isn't that slighly NOT kosher?

My stuff, family etc will at one time or another be in this barn, I want it safe and built using the correct items. Am I over-reacting ?

16D has a 0.165 dia shank, how does that compare to .131?

Not Kosher, and no you aren't over reacting. They need to clearly define what is needed. How can you "Do It Yourself" when the information is sketchy?

At this point they sound like amateurs? All they would have needed to do was supply a letter showing approved alternate nail schedules and have the letter approved by the engineer.

 

[Cuda416]

16D has a 0.165 dia shank, how does that compare to .131?

Not Kosher, and no you aren't over reacting. They need to clearly define what is needed. How can you "Do It Yourself" when the information is sketchy?

At this point they sound like amateurs? All they would have needed to do was supply a letter showing approved alternate nail schedules and have the letter approved by the engineer.

They explained that the building is spec'd for the .131 nail gun nails but they "draw" the commons in, but most pro builders are using the .131's. I said if that was the case, they need to call it out on the original drawings. They "said" they were going to start doing that to avoid the problem going forward but who knows. They are in fact sending me a letter on letterhead so I have something to put in my files. The stresses on the nails aren't shear as much as pull, that's why they said to use ring shanks.

 

[never enuf time]

I don't know Texas codes but, I think your overreacting. Have you ever tried taking a header apart nailed with a nail gun ?

Very difficult , Hand driven come apart much easier.

It was 20 years ago that I framing. The .131 would drive nicer than the thicker.

We very rarely used ring shank nails.

What are using them for ? I assumed general framing. If your worried about strength , throw a few more nails in it.

 

[RocketScott]

If you're having a hard time finding them it's probably because no one uses them.

It's very rare that I use 16d nails anymore. 10d framers are the standard. They are .131 x 3". A 16d short is the same diameter and 1/4" longer. 16d common are fatter and 3-1/2".

In most applications the extra length doesn't get you much (besides nails poking out of all the double 2x build ups). It's the girth that's important. The downside of more girth is splitting.

I'm surprised they call out ring shanks. I can't frame anything with ring shanks except for subfloor sheeting. Ring shanks have a reduced shear strength. If they are concerned about pullout maybe a screw would be better for that connection.

Here's a handy guide for choosing nails for different connections:

https://www.treeisland.com/sites/default/files/documents/brochures-spec-sheets/IBC%20Halsteel.pdf

 

[rlitman]

If you're having a hard time finding them it's probably because no one uses them.

It's very rare that I use 16d nails anymore. 10d framers are the standard. They are .131 x 3". A 16d short is the same diameter and 1/4" longer. 16d common are fatter and 3-1/2".

In most applications the extra length doesn't get you much (besides nails poking out of all the double 2x build ups). It's the girth that's important. The downside of more girth is splitting.

I'm surprised they call out ring shanks. I can't frame anything with ring shanks except for subfloor sheeting. Ring shanks have a reduced shear strength. If they are concerned about pullout maybe a screw would be better for that connection.

Here's a handy guide for choosing nails for different connections:

https://www.treeisland.com/sites/default/files/documents/brochures-spec-sheets/IBC%20Halsteel.pdf

Galvanized nails pull out more easily than vinyl coated steel nails. Smooth vinyl coated nails are damn near impossible to pull out, so framing done with them doesn't need to call out for ring or helical shanks. But if you're framing in ACQ or something that calls for hot dipped for corrosion resistance, that's a different story.

 

[Roberts210]

My Hitachi NR90 says on the side it will shoot 3-1/2" plastic collated strip nails at 21 degrees. So somebody sells them. But I wouldn't get too upset. Ditto what never-enuf-time says.

 

[njc41980]

Nail sizes are always confusing, because hand-driven nails are not the same thing as gun-driven nails.

The old hand-driven 16 penny nails are roughly 3-1/2" by .16, but the standard size for the gun driven nails that you will usually see replacing them is 3-1/4" by 1.31.

In my experience, galvanized nails are dang hard to pull out on their own. I've never heard of framing nails that are galvanized AND ring shanked. (Other and Siding and Roofing) If you've really got that big of a problem with nails coming out, then your framing probably isn't put together very sensibly. Nails are intended for shear - not pull out)

Honestly, I wouldn't fret too much about it. 3-1/4" x .131 is BY FAR the most common size of nail being used for all framing these days. If it worries you, you can always throw an extra nail or two in where is seems sensible.

The quality of your craftsmanship / framing is going to matter a lot more than splitting hairs over nail sizes.

 

[Cuda416]

Thanks everyone, this all makes a lot of sense. I was able to get a signed document on company letterhead stating the "smaller" nails were OK to use on the design. The nails will be going into ACQ treated posts so hot dipped were required and the ring shanks were called out because the thinner nails displace less wood, which means less "grip" from the wood. The rings compensate for that from what I've been told by some other folks.

In the end, it will be up to me and how much care I take in the actual construction. I plan on thinking things through, asking a lot of questions and trying to do things right.

All of the comments are appreciated and I've learned quite a bit from you all on what most of you consider no brainer stuff. The more I do, the more questions I ask the more i learn, the more I can get done. So again, thanks.

-=C

-=C

 

[ItsNemo]

Nail sizes are always confusing, because hand-driven nails are not the same thing as gun-driven nails.

The old hand-driven 16 penny nails are roughly 3-1/2" by .16, but the standard size for the gun driven nails that you will usually see replacing them is 3-1/4" by 1.31.

In my experience, galvanized nails are dang hard to pull out on their own. I've never heard of framing nails that are galvanized AND ring shanked. (Other and Siding and Roofing) If you've really got that big of a problem with nails coming out, then your framing probably isn't put together very sensibly. Nails are intended for shear - not pull out)

Honestly, I wouldn't fret too much about it. 3-1/4" x .131 is BY FAR the most common size of nail being used for all framing these days. If it worries you, you can always throw an extra nail or two in where is seems sensible.

The quality of your craftsmanship / framing is going to matter a lot more than splitting hairs over nail sizes.

We've got em' up here in Canada...it's what I've used for framing on outdoor stuff (decks, sheds, etc) and damn are they a pain to get apart after.

https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p....alvanized-framing-strip-nails.1000423772.html

 

[gsmith22]

16d commons (0.162" shank x 3.5" length) are available in the states as well but you need to search - HD and Lowes won't have them. I get mine online from nailgundepot.com 16d commons are arguably the largest size nail that professional nail guns will fire (its the largest your bostitch f21pl gun will fire). Most framing nailers will top out at smaller shank/shorter length nails.

Some background is probably helpful to understand your nail size dilemma. take a look at this website to get a history of nail sizing and answers to lots of your questions:

http://www.americanfastenersco.com/nail-geek-mdash-faq.html

In short, don't identify nails by their pennyweight size but by their shank diameter and length. Could smaller nails work (relative to what was on the plans)? Maybe but the engineer who prepared the plans is probably the only one that would know that for sure. The shank diameter and length determines the amount of shear (force perpendicular to shank) and withdraw (force parallel to nail shank) that a nail can support. Get in touch with the engineer and get it in writing.

 

[bob15]

Everything you want to know about screw nails and spiral shank nails is on page 35: https://www.mazenails.com/assets/pdf/maze-nails-price-list-catalog.pdf

 

[lakeroadster]

Everything you want to know about screw nails and spiral shank nails is on page 35: https://www.mazenails.com/assets/pdf/maze-nails-price-list-catalog.pdf

Thanks Bob.

Here's some seriously deep data.. http://www.icc-es.org/Reports/pdf_files/ESR-1539.pdf

 

[FloorPaint]

Zoro Tools, which is definitely owned by Grainger, has them.

https://www.zoro.com/zoro-select-framing-nail-3-14-in-pk1000-c-t4490a/i/G4661465/

Another possible source of supply is McFeely's, which I think is still owned by Grainger.

https://www.mcfeelys.com/screw-fastener-web-store/nails-for-nail-guns.html?p=2&screw_material=200

References:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoro_Tools
https://www.zacks.com/stock/news/115939/grainger-sells-three-brands