Framing question

[shoot summ]

I have a framing question I would like comments and suggestion on.

I currently have an area that is two rooms, each room is 16' deep and 14' wide with a support wall in the middle. The ceiling joists are 2x6 on 16" centers and run with the width of the rooms so they are in essence 28' long but are actually overlapped and sitting on the support wall.

I want to remove the support wall and make this one large space, and I would like to not have an exposed beam supporting the ceiling joist if possible, so what are my options?

I know in looking at similar spaces that they have actually put a beam in the attic where the ceiling joist **** into it, I would prefer not to have to cut a beam in, I'm hoping I could beam across the top of the joists but I'm not sure if it will properly support the joists and the load.

I also see quite a few "stiff backs" in different areas, these are 2x4's that cross the joists, then a 2x6 or 2x8 nailed next to it and into the joists in an L shape, I don't think these would be capable of supporting the load though.

 

[stafford]

If this room is at the end of the house, you could cut a hole in the gable and slide a support beam in there and then strap your joists to it. Or you could go into the attic and put troughs and bracing from the rafters to the joists, like a truss, this'll work I've done both before.

 

[rlk]

Your best bet is to have an engineer design the fix for you. In my area, the engineer would charge you around $250 - $300 for this service. Sounds high, but it relieves you of a lot of worries in the future.

Bob

 

[toxicz28]

Removing the bearing wall in the center of that room will result in a structural failure of at least the ceiling.
In theory, if you were building new, I would suggest 2x8 s if you were going to put any kind of load up there and keep the support in the middle.
With my limited knowledge, i would say for a 28' span you would need a minimum of a 2x14 or some kind of manufactured wood beam. That being said, you should really be consulting an engineer that is licensed in the state that you live in.

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Can you put a post in the wall at each end of the center wall you want to remove? If you can, then build two false temp walls to support the ceiling, remove the existing wall, add a post at each side and cut the existing ceiling joists to fit a new support beam.

The lumber yard can size the beam for you. Once you have the existing joists cut, slide the new support beam into place and use joist hangers to support the ceiling joists. Once everything is nailed into place, remove the temp walls and you are done.

I would make the posts from (3) or (4) 2x4 or 2x6 (depending on the wall thickness) or a 3.5x3.5x.25 HSS post if you ever plan on placing anything in the ceiling area. The post size will be determined by the beam the lumber yard suggests that you use.

EDIT:

If you want the beam in the ceiling, you can use an angle (something like a 4x4x1/4) to use as a hanger between the beam above the joists and the joists themselves. Either use lag bolts or thru bolts in a staggered pattern (at least 4 good sized bolts in each) and don't forget to use a large washer or a plate drilled to match the bolt pattern on the backside of the joist. The two angles will act as washers on the beam.

Get an engineer to look over the sizes of the material and bolts and bless them for you to make sure you are safe and don't have any problems in the future with something failing or getting into trouble with a building inspector.

 

[little d]

shoot, both ways stafford sugested will work, i to have done both and they have worked well. i'll add though, you dont have to cut through the gable if you have access somewhere else. what i've done is double up the strong back, stagering the splices. in outher words, 2 10' boards and 2 6' boards, start with a 10' then splice the 6' and then go back and start with the next 6' screwed to the fitst 10' and then add the last 10'. this sounds like more work but you dont have to repair the gable when done. i also like to use " huracane straps" to attach the strong backs to the ceiling joists.

if you decide to "truss" the rafters to the joists, do not just nail them to the sides of the joists and rafters! i've seen this fail. you have to cut them to fit and attach with plates or plywood. good luck.

 

[shoot summ]

shoot, both ways stafford sugested will work, i to have done both and they have worked well. i'll add though, you dont have to cut through the gable if you have access somewhere else. what i've done is double up the strong back, stagering the splices. in outher words, 2 10' boards and 2 6' boards, start with a 10' then splice the 6' and then go back and start with the next 6' screwed to the fitst 10' and then add the last 10'. this sounds like more work but you dont have to repair the gable when done. i also like to use " huracane straps" to attach the strong backs to the ceiling joists.

if you decide to "truss" the rafters to the joists, do not just nail them to the sides of the joists and rafters! i've seen this fail. you have to cut them to fit and attach with plates or plywood. good luck.

Thanks little d, I actually designed a strong back as you suggested and really thought it would work, then I started second guessing myself as I saw the beams in the attic for the other rooms.

I had actually thought about 3/4" ply between the 2x material overlapping the joints as well.

I appreciate all of the feedback, and understand the best way to do this is to consult an engineer.

 

[Relie]

We took out a wall like this between my kitchen and living room. Made a temp wall on both sides of the existing wall, then removed the partial beam that was resting on the wall that we were removing. Brought in 3 lamanitated beams 2x14x21 feet. Cut the roof joists to fit them in and one by one installed them, nailed them together and installed joist hangers. Re-rocked the ceiling so on. Job came out beautiful.

 

[little d]

your very welcome.

 

[Justanoldguy]

i would say for a 28' span

The way I read it, the beam would only be 16" span, right??

 

[shoot summ]

The way I read it, the beam would only be 16" span, right??

Correct, the room would be 28' long, and 16' wide, the beam will support the joists roughly in the middle of the 28', and would be about 16' long.