"Franzinator" build...IPS with no epoxy

[absintheisfun]

reduce the temp of air entering main comp. tank.The line from the comp head to tank's temp dropped 60%....mission accomplished.The second or minor criteria for us was the removal of the mayonaise funk chit which is a combination of moisture and oil blow-by in comp head.

And here is another example of folks talking about it as if it is on the intake side of the compressor...so confused

 

[spongerich]

Not to threadjack this, but does anyone know how much pressure is used on a typical window air conditioner unit? I see them all the time for $10. I was thinking about cannibalizing one for the coils and plumbing it in. A couple of small 12v computer fans should provide plenty of airflow, but I'm worried about putting 150 PSI into one.

 

[joe_padavano]

To the naysayers, good thing that Columbus did NOT think that world is flat, then other continents would never been discovered. LOL!! Franzinators work..

Never said it wouldn't work, just that there's nothing terribly magic about it. It's a water trap, and the greater length definitely makes it work better than the little ones that come with regulators. If calling it some fancy name and attaching mystical powers to it make you feel better, have at it.

And yes, it's the THERMAL MASS of the iron pipe that helps cool the water vapor out of the air, so the fact that iron pipe has more "mass per dollar" is, in fact, an advantage. Again, there's no magic or science in this, just brute force.

 

[er3456df]

Never said it wouldn't work, just that there's nothing terribly magic about it.

Exactly. Build this thing, but do it all "wrong" by Franz's standards, and I bet it still works the same.

And yes, it's the THERMAL MASS of the iron pipe that helps cool the water vapor out of the air, so the fact that iron pipe has more "mass per dollar" is, in fact, an advantage. Again, there's no magic or science in this, just brute force.

Yep. I see people talking about which material is superior, and it's definitely copper- until you factor in cost. If copper came in pipes as thick as iron, then the copper would be better.

 

[Boog]

Mr. Onetwo,
Any update? How did it work? Anything you would have done differently? Thanks

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

Against my better judgment I'll throw my 2 cents into this debate. I am on the side of the debate which says" It does work," because it does! I would not suggest it be used exclusively in a high end automotive paint shop or that it is an equivalent to an refrigerated dryer or desiccant dryer but for the home hobbyist, it is the most economical set up you will find.

I too made a "franzinator" long before I even knew there was something called a "franzinator." I used to build Koi ponds and custom pond filters and aerators for my customers many years ago. The way you build an aerator is to build a venturi air jet, similar to a carburetor jet, within your water line. Anyhow, knowing what I know about a venturi construction and the basic principal about how they work with compressed air, I built myself this dryer. It is connected to my compressor pump on the left side and the tank on the right. It has 3 legs that I designed to pull the water out of suspension and into the drip drains below. The fourth leg is a (discontinued) desiccant dryer I picked up at horrible freight. Here is an old picture from when I was building it:

Basically this is my theory of how it works: If you take compressed air within a small diameter tube and run through progressively smaller diameter air lines and then an even smaller venturi then out into a large diameter tube you will instantly create a cold spot (relatively speaking). If you direct your jet of air toward the wall of the larger diameter pipe any of the water pulled out of suspension from the recent chilling will slap against the wall and drip down before it has a chance to get pulled back into suspension. Here is a graphic of my lousy explanation:

I know this works simply by the volume of water that I get out of each drip leg. More in the first , less in the last, and none below the desiccant dryer. I also put an automatic drain on my compressor tank but it never spits any water out.

So how much do I use my compressor and for what purpose? I am just a hobbies in my shop and might use it for nail guns, tin shearing, auto work, and the occasional painting. So not much compared to many of you. I cannot find a picture of my current set up but here is the compressor fresh after I rebuilt it last winter:
View media item 25607
I can see that making a system out of iron pipe would be cheaper and the pipe would probably dissipate heat quicker but I made mine out of copper because I had it on hand, it won't rust, and there are less threads to leak. I would have used even larger diameter pipe but I didn't have anything on hand and I didn't want to spend too much money.

-Tim

 

[Mr onetwo]

Well guys, I am finally back.Sorry for the long delay....sometimes life interrupts things! Anyway...here is the completion of the Franzinator and what I have found so far.My compressor is rated at around 10.6 CFM@ 90 PSI.The filter regulators in the pics are Norgren B12-318-M318M and the main is 20ft. of 3/4" black iron pipe.Here are pics of the complete setup.

 

[Mr onetwo]

I took some temperature measurements with a calibrated laser temp gun.On a run up from 0 PSI/cold to 130PSI. I measured 251 degrees F max at the right hand pc. of yellow tape in the pic(outlet of compressor head).I measured 74 degrees F max at the left hand pc. of tape(outlet of Franzinator). Ambient temp inside garage was 50 degrees F.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Taken on face value, it seems that the "Franzinator" concept works quite well.Keep in mind that I followed Franz's design (pipe size and component length) exactly.Making the thing bigger or longer makes no difference according to him.For bigger compressors you simply add more in series. In a couple of weeks of use(maybe a hundred or so compressor cycles) I have drained around 2 quarts of condensate.There is absolutely nothing in the filters at all! Now it's time for you guys to comment!

 

[akdiesel]

Mr onetwo

Nice setup and report. Thanks. Ive had mine in service for about 3 or 4 years now.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Mr onetwo

Nice setup and report. Thanks. Ive had mine in service for about 3 or 4 years now.

Thank you! Did you follow the design as I did or did you change it up some?It will be a better test if I can start painting and sandblasting this summer in high humidity conditions...stay tuned!

 

[akdiesel]

Mr onetwo

Mine is a stainless tank I made. It's about 2' tall. I don't have it fed from the compressor and then back to the air tank like yours yet. Still waiting for the compressor I want, it does help is this set just as well.

 

[agoins]

So basically what you all are doing is making another air tank before the main tank that comes with the compressor? It gives the air time to expand, and also taking advantage of the thermal mass of the tank. Why couldnt you use an air tank you would use with air ride and get similar results. Pending you oriented the inlet/outlet/drain in the correct spots.

 

[akdiesel]

agoins

That tank would do just the same. Part of the purpose is to use a sacrificial tank (usually smaller then the main tank) to take most of the water out, so if for any reason it starts to rust it is not that expensive to replace or time consuming, not to mention the main purpose of the second tank as a knock out drum.

 

[nautique1228]

I have a question about the build, As I'm about to attempt this and I like the idea of the double tapped bushing. From the other diagrams I've seen however, the internal elbow did not have pipe extending down. Any reason you did this? Or did I just misunderstand? I've read quite a bit about this. Also one last tidbit anyone try a aftercooler before the franzinator or would that be overkill.

 

[sberry]

Mine is a simple version. BTW I kind of like the old Fart. Agree, its a simple air cooler.

 

[Mr onetwo]

I have a question about the build, As I'm about to attempt this and I like the idea of the double tapped bushing. From the other diagrams I've seen however, the internal elbow did not have pipe extending down. Any reason you did this? Or did I just misunderstand? I've read quite a bit about this. Also one last tidbit anyone try a aftercooler before the franzinator or would that be overkill.

In Franz's original design it has a piece of copper pointed down with a venturi on it.To my mind it makes sense to extend it down around 6" and then put a reducer on the end.As a note...when the compressor is running the lower 2" black iron ****** gets very,very hot (175 degrees F). The upward pointing ****** above the inlet stays cool.

 

[CNGsaves]

Taken on face value, it seems that the "Franzinator" concept works quite well.Keep in mind that I followed Franz's design (pipe size and component length) exactly.Making the thing bigger or longer makes no difference according to him.For bigger compressors you simply add more in series. In a couple of weeks of use(maybe a hundred or so compressor cycles) I have drained around 2 quarts of condensate.There is absolutely nothing in the filters at all! Now it's time for you guys to comment!

Great setup Mr OneTwo . . . . like the simplicity of your Franzinator and black pipe steel airline.

Curious if you "did it over" would you still attach the Franzinator on building wall rather than weld up frame extension to compressor?? What I mean do you worry that vibration will possibly crack the copper lines running over from compressor to the Franzinator??

Overall, excellent setup that likely would be great for typical DIY garage.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Great setup Mr OneTwo . . . . like the simplicity of your Franzinator and black pipe steel airline.

Curious if you "did it over" would you still attach the Franzinator on building wall rather than weld up frame extension to compressor?? What I mean do you worry that vibration will possibly crack the copper lines running over from compressor to the Franzinator??

Overall, excellent setup that likely would be great for typical DIY garage.

Thank you very much.I thought about the vibration but decided that I wanted to mount the device away from the compressor a little bit.It tucked into that corner very nicely and is mounted very solidly on the unistrut.Soft drawn refridgeration copper is pretty tough.....we'll just have to see if it is a problem in the future.I would have gone with all black pipe and flexes, but they are really expensive for the proper ones.

 

[Mr onetwo]

I have received a couple of questions via PM.Here is a link to an article about the Franzinator that I used in my design...particularly the inlet venturi. http://sawdustandfilings.blogspot.com/2011/05/mr-compressor-meets-franzinator.html Also a couple of more pics to clarify.

 

[nine4gmc]

How is this holding up? I'm collecting parts for mine now.

 

[fflintstone]

I have received a couple of questions via PM.Here is a link to an article about the Franzinator that I used in my design...particularly the inlet venturi. http://sawdustandfilings.blogspot.com/2011/05/mr-compressor-meets-franzinator.html Also a couple of more pics to clarify.

AH now I see why everyone likes it.

a bit phallic……

 

[Mr onetwo]

How is this holding up? I'm collecting parts for mine now.

It's holding up fine and removes a lot of water.

 

[BellyUpFish]

I am finally finishing up my air compressor system the next few days and I thought I would show everyone how I built my "Franzinator".I have never liked or trusted the epoxy method of constructing the inlet or down tube.Instead, I used what is know as a "double tapped" bushing.I threaded an 1 1/2" x 1/2" DT into a 2" x 2" x 1 1/2" mallable tee with a 1/2" elbow;1/2" x 1 1/2" ******;1/2" x 6" ****** and a 1/2" x 1/4" coupling reamed out.It is a little tricky putting it together.I made the body of the device with a 2" x 20" ****** facing down and a 17" facing up.I made the 1/2" space ****** onto the back side of the DT bushing first.Then the 1/2" x 6" onto the elbow.I then chucked a 1/2" x 12" ****** into my pipe vise and threaded the outer side of the DT bushing onto it hand tight.I prepped all the remaining joints with "Xpando pipe dope.Holding the 2" x 1 1/2" tee off the DT bushing, start the 1/2" elbow and tighten it about 2 turns before you start the tee onto the DT bushing.Viola! ....you have your down tube inlet assembly without epoxy.Much safer IMHO! I used all american-made WARD fittings for this project.Here is some pictures to clarify.After the compressor is all done, I will take some laser readings and we will find out how well this works.All credit for the basic Franzinator design goes to the amazing "Franz"!

Disregard. I found the answer through reading the thread again.

 

[shortykorte]

Just read through this thread again and the important piece I missed the first time was the use of the orifice. There are the divided camps, it works vs. it doesn't. Understanding the goal of Franzinator (low cost!!!!, easy to build and removes moisture) I would say it works.

Why do I think it works with out trying? Simple! The other day I sanded the hood of my car with a pneumatic DA. When I blew the dust of, the air going through a reduced nozzle cooled then when the air hit the warm hood, some condensation occurred. My thinking is, hot humid air going through an orifice then hitting a cooler material (pipe) you get the same effect, condensation and thus the Franzinator.

Sounds like the theory is sound, I like low cost, and will probably do a great job for a hobbyist i.e. low volume, like myself.

 

[CNGsaves]

It's holding up fine and removes a lot of water.

^ ^ ^ How about an UPDATE for the GJer's who've never heard of Franzinator ??

 

[Falcon67]

A "Franzinator" is named after a guy that first put it on the internet. (Around 2006) It's basically a large pipe with a smaller pipe that runs down the center lower portion of the pipe. The idea is that air existing the smaller pipe near the bottom of the large pipe loses velocity and that along with a lot of "cool" surface area causes water to condense out of the air. You tap the top of the big pipe for air going into the rest of the system.

Parts of mine here, starting Post 312 http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100482&page=16

Pirate 4x4 has a bunch on there too.

 

[Draven8795]

Instead of creating a new thread I figured I'd post here. I'm going to be running two compressors in tandem for automotive painting and would liked to build two of these.

Where did you get your 2" pipe from?

Also did you hook this between the compressor itself and the tank or after? I think i'm going to hook mine between since when painting i'm going to assume my compressor is going to be running more than it's not.

 

[Falcon67]

I got my pipe at an old time full service hardware store - the old school kind that occupies half a city block. They still cut and thread pipe to your specification. Over 1 1/2", you'll be talking to plumbing supply houses - big box stops at 1 1/2". I went 1 1/2" to save space. I plumbed mine after the tank, using the tank as part of the cooling system. I installed drain valves and blow out both every so often.

If you are serious enough about painting to run two compressors, you should also consider something like the HF compressed air dryer. I have a small 10 CFM air dryer unit that I plan to install, it was a "gimme" from the maintenance shop at work when they pulled some industrial pneumatic controls out of a building. I will put it on the leg that would be used to feed the paint gun.

 

[pcmeiners]

"Sounds like the theory is sound, I like low cost, and will probably do a great job for a hobbyist i.e. low volume, like myself."

It works if you follow the design of commercial units, but they are not particularly popular commercially due to lack of efficiency. There is no free meal here, they use HP in cooling the air down. Basically the same principle as an air conditioner, run a high pressure gas through an orifice to a lower pressure area, resulting in cooling, cool air then drops out moisture. Your better off using a a fair sized commercial ****** cooler, little cost in HP.

 

[ssdave]

The "science" behind these is garbage. The supposed pressure drop is only at high flows, and that just uses up compressor capacity. They work for two reasons: 1) They are a heat sink that cools the air and (2) the direction change of the air flow causes water droplets to not be carried as easily through the system.

You're much better off building an efficient aftercooler, and then following that with a separator for the condensed droplets. The franzinator will work as the separator after the cooler if you want a heavy, bulky, expensive one instead of a small, compact commercial one.

As said before there's no free lunch. If they really did work better than the alternatives, they'd be for sale. They do work, to some extent, and may be enough for some people. So, the testimonials to them are valid. What those people have not done is compare them to a properly designed and constructed cooler, that would remove moisture better. To the extent that good enough is good enough, they're quite adequate for many hobbyists.

 

[sberry]

I wonder if the old fart is still alive? He "harvested" me fr4om an ag board to Hobart. I spent a year on electric at DIY, at Electric tool box and a bit at self help before Hobart which was a good thing. I actually know Ron "shade" from SFT. Good guy.

 

[Draven8795]

There's a local hardware store I'll check out that can thread pipe still i'll see if they have the big enough pipe. As you mentioned the big box stores i looked at did not. I understand this is an air trap, if it pulls water excellent that's what i need.

After that i plan on doing a diy dessicant system and then a filter and a 50 ft air hose and an filter right at the gun.

I felt putting it between the compressor and tank would allow for that big temp difference to condense the water but if it make sense to use the tank then the seperator.

 

[rick carpenter]

An inline pig would work the same and you could call it what you want.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Instead of creating a new thread I figured I'd post here. I'm going to be running two compressors in tandem for automotive painting and would liked to build two of these.

Where did you get your 2" pipe from?

Also did you hook this between the compressor itself and the tank or after? I think i'm going to hook mine between since when painting i'm going to assume my compressor is going to be running more than it's not.

Wow, back from the dead.I installed it after the compressor head and then into the tank....refer to the photo I have attached. As an update.I ran this setup for quite a while and it worked perfectly. I then sold the compressor and "Franzinator". I will be upgrading to a much larger IR compressor and a refridgerated dryer setup I obtained really cheap.I still think this was a worthwhile experiment and may make one again as a pre-cooler. As far as the pipe goes, Home Depot's all thread 2" pipe as far as I know.You could also find a local Fire suppression or HVAC shop and I am sure they would be glad to thread some 2" up for you.I would recommend building it exactly as Franz did.

 

[sberry]

I have a pig in between comps and recently redesigned the manifold a bit and had considered a Franz type column unit but so far no water anywhere down the line.

 

[Mikerla]

question 1: Does it make a difference if you use domestic or import fittings?
Question 2: I have a 5HP two stage 60 gallon compressor ILA3606056, do i need two Franzinators?

Thanks for the help in advance.

Mike

 

[sberry]

If its taking water out its obviously doing something, why may be debatable but the results speak for themselves.

 

[IndyGarage]

I wonder if the old fart is still alive? He "harvested" me fr4om an ag board to Hobart. I spent a year on electric at DIY, at Electric tool box and a bit at self help before Hobart which was a good thing. I actually know Ron "shade" from SFT. Good guy.

He's alive as far as I know. He's got his own message board, which I joined, but it seems to have died due to lack of interest - seems like the only posts are him and his buddies joking back and forth.

He seems pretty paranoid about people stealing his ideas. He modified the design of this from a pipe version to a propane tank version, to allow a larger deceleration and acceleration of the air . I built a couple of them for my compressors, and they seem to work.

 

[sberry]

Seems if he doesn't want people to steal his ideas then he would keep them off the net? I don't mind crusty old farts, he never did anything bad to me and helped on occasion. We got along.