freakin ****!!!!!

[blkhonda1991]

Even though this was a non intrusive inspection...how the hell did the inspector miss the drywall issue? From what you described the condition of the walls should have tipped him off to advise you to go invasive to see what lurks behind the drywall before you closed on the house.

Not sure how it works in Canada, but in the US you do have some recourse if you pay for an inspection and they miss something obvious like this.

from my experiences inspections are for homeowners knowledge and the inspectors make no guarantees and arent liable for anything missed. my home inspector told me he isnt required to move things that are in the way to inspect things so if there was something blocking that area of the wall its understandable that it wasnt seen. home inspectors arent as thorough as you want or need them to be.

 

[pattenp]

With no evidence of moisture or mold damage on the studs I'd be willing to bet the insulation was in that condition when installed.

 

[scott37300]

I skimed threw the thread so forgive me if this has been stated already. You mentioned several times "no vapor barrier", there is a vapor barrier. You do not want a vapor barrier on both sides of the insulation, it will trap any mosture inside and cause more problems. The vapor barrier goes on the warm side like it is in your house. The only thing the cold sides get if anything is something like tyvek, it is not a vapor barrier, it is a breathable waterproof membrane. It keeps water out but lets moisture out.

 

[Keep]

Well up here in Ontario, there is no recourse for things missed in inspection. If you get a chance look up Holmes new show "Holmes Inspection" he goes through houses that were purchased with an inspection, only to find "surprise" they missed a bunch of stuff. The best I seen was a flip, they damn basement was caving in and just covered up, nothing the homeowner could do.

Anyway back to the current issue. Go to your local hardware store, grab some "tuck tape" look on that wall and seal up every hole in that vapor barrier, especially around those electrical boxes, that is a huge area for heat to come through into a cold garage, and cold air into a hot garage. Which causes condensation and then your mold. I would almost bet if you looked in the areas the mold was the worst you would find tears in the barrier.

 

[5thRail]

From the pictures it seems to me the entire problem rests on the size of the garage, which is clearly inadequate for anything larger than a moped or Smart car. If you enlarge the garage to the appropriate 4+car size, then I am willing to bet you will solve your mold problem (by removing it and replacing the insulation) and your wife will be comfortable knowing you've defeated the mold and you'll be happy with your added garage space.

 

[idoine in toronto]

X3 (the pictures don’t lie)

This is the point of moisture intrusion, weather from the heated side or the garage side or both. (my bet is warm moist kitchen air is migrating thru the electrical opening and condensing on the cold insulation.) Just because it is BLACK does not mean its mold. Mildew is black as well. I would remove the insulation, seal any and all holes to warm side with caulk. Spray bleach on ANY black spots. Make sure EVERYTHING is dry and then re insulate and re drywall.
Dont bother with a lawyer, just fix it. you will be money and time way ahead.

X4,

I'd hazard to guess that your wall is in better condition than the majority of structure in Ontario. Unfortunately vapor barriers don't seem to be well understood by many builders in our region.

Without seeing your wall first hand I'd agree with others that warm moist air from the kitchen is hitting the the cold electrical box and forming condensation. Seal up any air leaks in the VB (check the wall to ceiling & wall to floor transitions for proper seals) and before you close in the wall double check your garage roof to house wall/roof flashing connection to make sure there is not a leak overhead.

If you or the previous home owners park in the garage through the winter, the cars will bring in a lot of water from melting snow and ice, which will be a big contributor to your moisture problem.

I wish you good luck if you attempt to go after the home inspector, RE agent or previous owner for damages as it will be difficult (re $$$) to prove they were aware of the problem. In this case your money will be better spent solving the physical problem than trying to get someone else to cough up the dough, even if they could/should be held liable.

Aron

 

[diovol]

X4,

I'd hazard to guess that your wall is in better condition than the majority of structure in Ontario. Unfortunately vapor barriers don't seem to be well understood by many builders in our region.

Without seeing your wall first hand I'd agree with others that warm moist air from the kitchen is hitting the the cold electrical box and forming condensation. Seal up any air leaks in the VB (check the wall to ceiling & wall to floor transitions for proper seals) and before you close in the wall double check your garage roof to house wall/roof flashing connection to make sure there is not a leak overhead.

If you or the previous home owners park in the garage through the winter, the cars will bring in a lot of water from melting snow and ice, which will be a big contributor to your moisture problem.

I wish you good luck if you attempt to go after the home inspector, RE agent or previous owner for damages as it will be difficult (re $$$) to prove they were aware of the problem. In this case your money will be better spent solving the physical problem than trying to get someone else to cough up the dough, even if they could/should be held liable.

Aron

my thought exactly... im not going after anyone just gonna fix it and learn at the same time...Here is another question./.. what do I use to fill holes that are only about the size of your fingernail in diameter but go right thru the whole drywall( 1/2" depth)

 

[DBALL]

I would replace the pink stuff with Roxul while I was at it, its water repellent and fire resistant plus it made right here in the GTA. They also make plastic covers for outlets to seal them on outside walls.

 

[R6 Racer]

Its a LOT different here in Canada! You have no recourse at all. But on the bright side you did find it in time to correct the problem before it became huge.
I would think that the moisture most likely came from 1 or 2 different areas.
First off some warm air would have gotten into the insulation threw the wall sockets in the kitchen. When that warm air hit the cold air coming into the wall cavity from your garage it would have caused some condensation. that would have gotten your insulation a bit wet which probably helped to create some of the mold.
To fix that from happening again buy a couple of those clear plastic box covers & put them around the kitchen outlet boxes (now that you have the wall opened) from the garage side. Seal them to the vapor barrier with tuck tape (the red stuff & don't be shy with it either). while your at it check the vapor barrier for any other openings & seal them with tuck tape as well.
Secondly by the looks of it, most of the moisture appears to be coming from the bottom. Combine that with the wet appearing drywall, makes me think that there was a lot of moisture coming from the garage side. Here in southern Ontario most homes built in the early 80's, when there was drywall put up in the garage, it stopped about a foot or so from the garage floor. Leaving the drywall with an open end exposed. If, as someone had suggested in an earlier post, washed their car in the garage, moisture would have easily gotten the lower part of the insulation wet. Again causing mold.
My suggestion would be for you to, after the vapor barrier repair & after you re insulate, would be to cover the wall in Ty Par/exterior building wrap. This stuff repels moisture but is still breathable. Then install mold resistant/paperless drywall (keeping it at the 1 foot off the floor height it was at). Next I would finish the garage drywall with a full 2 coats of mud, primer & a water resistant paint (a bathroom paint would work) And lastly I would cap the bottom of the drywall with some kind of trim, primed, painted & caulked around (top & bottom of the trim)
I tried to draw the trim finish with a paint program, hope you get what I mean.
black= foundation
red= garage floor
blue= drywall
green= 2x4 base plate
yellow= trim
pink= caulking
I am also in southern Ontario, PM me & if your close enough to me I would gladly give you a hand.

Steve

 

[diovol]

I would replace the pink stuff with Roxul while I was at it, its water repellent and fire resistant plus it made right here in the GTA. They also make plastic covers for outlets to seal them on outside walls.

yes sir I was told that about roxul... It is a natural fibre. A little more expensive but worth it i hear...

 

[diovol]

Its a LOT different here in Canada! You have no recourse at all. But on the bright side you did find it in time to correct the problem before it became huge.
I would think that the moisture most likely came from 1 or 2 different areas.
First off some warm air would have gotten into the insulation threw the wall sockets in the kitchen. When that warm air hit the cold air coming into the wall cavity from your garage it would have caused some condensation. that would have gotten your insulation a bit wet which probably helped to create some of the mold.
To fix that from happening again buy a couple of those clear plastic box covers & put them around the kitchen outlet boxes (now that you have the wall opened) from the garage side. Seal them to the vapor barrier with tuck tape (the red stuff & don't be shy with it either). while your at it check the vapor barrier for any other openings & seal them with tuck tape as well.
Secondly by the looks of it, most of the moisture appears to be coming from the bottom. Combine that with the wet appearing drywall, makes me think that there was a lot of moisture coming from the garage side. Here in southern Ontario most homes built in the early 80's, when there was drywall put up in the garage, it stopped about a foot or so from the garage floor. Leaving the drywall with an open end exposed. If, as someone had suggested in an earlier post, washed their car in the garage, moisture would have easily gotten the lower part of the insulation wet. Again causing mold.
My suggestion would be for you to, after the vapor barrier repair & after you re insulate, would be to cover the wall in Ty Par/exterior building wrap. This stuff repels moisture but is still breathable. Then install mold resistant/paperless drywall (keeping it at the 1 foot off the floor height it was at). Next I would finish the garage drywall with a full 2 coats of mud, primer & a water resistant paint (a bathroom paint would work) And lastly I would cap the bottom of the drywall with some kind of trim, primed, painted & caulked around (top & bottom of the trim)
I tried to draw the trim finish with a paint program, hope you get what I mean.
black= foundation
red= garage floor
blue= drywall
green= 2x4 base plate
yellow= trim
pink= caulking
I am also in southern Ontario, PM me & if your close enough to me I would gladly give you a hand.

Steve

wow , thanks alot steve. You meet great people in the oddest places. Thanks for the advice and drawing and I might just take you up on your offer....

 

[idoine in toronto]

As said above use Tuck Tape to seal the gaps and for extra protection consider using a non paper backed sheetroc product like Humitek or better, "green" board designed for use in wet area like bathrooms.

 

[diovol]

now any advice on fixing holes the depth of the drywall(1/2"). the reason im asking is because they are also in the walls where the mold was. ( the holes were thru the back wall then pierced the vaypour barrier) so I would like to fill the holes right thru just for extra sealant....

 

[e-tek]

Maybe you could release some mold-eating super bugs? I can't remember where I saw that....

 

[green.bubbly]

Walls look nice and clean. Now fill them up with closed cell insulating spray foam and be done with it.

 

[gcan]

I'm with pattenp the black spots are random and only appear to be on the insulation....can't see any evidence of mold on the 2x4's or the sheet rock behind the insulation...I'd say it was most likely on the insulation when it was installed or soon after. I've seen cases before just like this where just the insulation has mold.

There are to many mold freaks that go crazy when you mention the word but there are obviously varying degrees of problems and based on the pictures yours appears to definately be near zero. As long as there are no signs anywhere else in the wall cavaty, replace the insulation and roll on...don't let the "mold people" freak you out.

Just my $.02

 

[ForceFed70]

The "wet/moldy insulation when installed" theory doesn't explain why the drywall itself was wet. OP mentioned that the drywall showed signs of moisture damage.

 

[southpier]

The first thing to do is contact your attorney and the realtor, who should contact the home inspector that missed this, and you should get out of that purchase.
This mold is a lot older than the month you have been there, and sounds serious.

and folks wonder what's wrong with this country ...

 

[frankkl]

New Tuck Tape,
New Insulation,
New Dry Wall, call it a day.
This is just a small and cheap repair. If I would have got on my high horse every time I discovered **** that the previous ower of the housemade, I would be dead from stress. Fixing is many times cheaper than the trouble of blaming the previous owner and wishing to have him pay. At least, in my case, when I get rid of the old owners ****, I know it's fix right.

 

[ebasista]

On that metal outlet box, do you have the correct knockout covers...sorry don't know what they are called, but for Romex to enter a metal box they have to have a screwed in adapter that prevents the metal circular opening from rubbing thru the insulation.

 

[JOHNMAN]

I'm with pattenp the black spots are random and only appear to be on the insulation....can't see any evidence of mold on the 2x4's or the sheet rock behind the insulation...I'd say it was most likely on the insulation when it was installed or soon after. I've seen cases before just like this where just the insulation has mold.

There are to many mold freaks that go crazy when you mention the word but there are obviously varying degrees of problems and based on the pictures yours appears to definately be near zero. As long as there are no signs anywhere else in the wall cavaty, replace the insulation and roll on...don't let the "mold people" freak you out.

Just my $.02

:agree:

I too think it was on the insulation when they put it up. No sign of moisture or staining on the studs that I can see from the pictures, but since you are right there, you should be able to better tell if there was any moisture inside the wall.

 

[mpraddict]

If you've ever been on a construction site, this should not surprise you at all. With the slap-it-up-fast mentality of most home builders, there is very little care taken to ensure systems (like vapor retarders) are installed correctly. If you tear into most any wall, you'll probably find a little black in/on the fiberglass insulation. You'd be surprised at the quality (or lack of it) that goes into the typical house, especially the areas you can't see.

 

[bilko1]

I have seen air flow cause the same type of black on the insulation.
You must be very sure that it is some type of mold before you call the lawers and seller.
Fiberglass insulation does not stop air from moving in the wall, it only slows it down. The black could have been from the auto tail pipe while heating the car in the winter.

 

[diovol]

when i go to insulate, because the kitchen side of the wall and the other attached wall already has vaypour barrier on it, do I put another layer of vaypor barrier on the garage side of the walls (garage side of the insulation)?
i have been told both to do it and absolutely not to......

 

[mpraddict]

You only want the vapor retarder on the warm side of the wall. The placement in your wall is correct. Do not add one to the other side, as it would have the potential to trap any moisture that does get into the wall. Then you would really have a mold issue.

 

[R6 Racer]

when i go to insulate, because the kitchen side of the wall and the other attached wall already has vaypour barrier on it, do I put another layer of vaypor barrier on the garage side of the walls (garage side of the insulation)?
i have been told both to do it and absolutely not to......

NO!! Definitely not!

Steve

 

[brownbagg]

that doesnt look like mold to me, mold lives off paper and wood, the studs was too clean, That just look like wet fiberglass. mold does not eat fiberglass.

 

[Stretch660]

I agree with BILKO1. The look of the black areas on the insulation suggest air movement from the garage into the walls and not mold. The areas around the outlet and up the bottom of the wall are, in my opinion, from the exhaust of the vehicle(s) that were started in the garage and any other dust or debris the wind blew in that found its way into the walls through the gap in the bottom of the drywall. The damaged drywall could been from any number of things, snow, washing the car, etc.

Just my opinion.

 

[theroyz71]

I agree. Something about it did not look like typical mold to me either. Not sure it was the fact that the studs are void of mold or that I didn't see any spores. Looked like someone painted the insulation.

 

[nathank]

and folks wonder what's wrong with this country ...

My thoughts exactly.

 

[6768rogues]

An enzyme cleaner (janitorial supply company) will not only kill mold, the enzymes eat mold. Your home inspector had his head in a dark place, in my opinion.

 

[diovol]

so here is an update of what I have been doing to my garage.... Progress has been way slower than I would have liked but My wife and myself live in an expensive city and this is our first home and we are still younger 27 & 26 so the money isnt flowing yet like some of you older guys. haahah. I also did all the work myself including the electrical so an hour here and an hour there makes the job drag on.... anyways the garage is gonna be used for mostly motorcycle stuff and it is know where near completed yet...

I will post more pics when it is all finished.....

anyways enjoy

 

[e-tek]

FANTASTIC WORK!!!!!!!!Glad to see you decided to do it yourself and not succumb to the doom-sayers that would have had you saddled with lawyers bills and living in a hotel!! It's going to be a great space to work on your bikes!

Is that black receptacle for a welder or dryer? I've never seen one quite like that....and I'm in Canada too (SK). Looks like you'll be cozy-warm in there. I love working in my garage in the winter!

 

[diovol]

FANTASTIC WORK!!!!!!!!Glad to see you decided to do it yourself and not succumb to the doom-sayers that would have had you saddled with lawyers bills and living in a hotel!! It's going to be a great space to work on your bikes!

Is that black receptacle for a welder or dryer? I've never seen one quite like that....and I'm in Canada too (SK). Looks like you'll be cozy-warm in there. I love working in my garage in the winter!

Yeah im glad i did it myself too and thanks for the positive words.. the receptacles are for a welder my compressor and my heater... I have 10 duplex 115volt receptacles and 3 - 230 volt receptacles....

 

[ZRX61]

Dunno if it's just me, but that step would be a lot more useful if it were in front of the door instead of 6ft along the wall....

 

[SGKent]

where is the clothes dryer?

 

[e-tek]

Yeah im glad i did it myself too and thanks for the positive words.. the receptacles are for a welder my compressor and my heater... I have 10 duplex 115volt receptacles and 3 - 230 volt receptacles....

Can't have too many outlets (well, one guy did!)

This is what mine looks like:

Though I see you have it plugged in at one point, so I guess it works!!

 

[JustBob]

First time I seen this thread, but I have seen this type of damage a few times.

One other cause could be air infiltration. If there are no visible signs of water leakes/water infiltration, and there dont seem to be, then I would think the culprit is air intake through that wall and the kitchen into the house. When you run the stove hood, dryer, bathroom vent, fireplace... the air has got to come from somewhere.

Before air can be exhausted out, it must come in from someplace. Very few homes, more so in the southern states, have an air intake system in place to adequately deal with incoming moist air.

It is to late now, but it would have been easy to do an air infiltration test to determine if this was the cause before you had done any repairs. As long as you sealed it up any possible air leaks you should not have any more problems.

 

[DBALL]

Very Nice job, your place looks great.

 

[SGKent]

Is/was the clothes dryer in the garage on that heavy circuit and where did he vent the exhaust? I am thinking maybe that was the source of your moisture - blowing out the bottom of the dryer back against the wall and up the wall from underneath.