Freon sensors on new systems?

[Hobby_Man22]

So I have a rent house with an r22 system from like 08. The capacitor went out, so they fixed it and charged me $400 when I probably should have just replaced the whole system, but I guess you never know. It could go another 10 years. Anyways, are these new hvac systems really that sensitive and problematic with these new freon leak sensors? Couldn't you just unhook the sensor and keep it outside in clean air for lack of a better word? Lol Talking to the technician it sounds like even a brand new hvac system they're detecting leaks. Not sure if that's just a faulty sensor or if they're really sensitive.

 

[danski0224]

A refrigerant leak sensor would be unusual on a residential system, which might change with the new flammable refrigerants.

 

[rlitman]

... with the new flammable refrigerants.

That's what it's all about. A2L is what's in the cards post R410a.

The problem I have is that flammable gas sensors will pick up on ANY hydrocarbon gas. Aerosol sprays used nearby - alarm. A little gas escaping your stove burner while lighting it - alarm. Fart in the wrong place - you see my point. And these sensors need to be set to pick up very low concentrations, in the off chance that a large leak is far from the sensor.

At least with R600a (isobutane) systems, the workaround to a sensor is simply keeping the refrigerant charge so low that it's not considered a big risk. But isobutane is VERY flammable, while R32 (I think this is the future of A2L) is hardly more flammable than R410a. On that alone, I'm all for waiting this out as long as possible.

 

[danski0224]

That's what it's all about. A2L is what's in the cards post R410a.

Oh, I thought it was about expiring patents and profits. My bad.

Oh, and selling new "compatible" tools...

The problem I have is that flammable gas sensors will pick up on ANY hydrocarbon gas.

I haven't really looked into it. I was assuming that the sensors would only be required on systems containing over "x" quantity of refrigerant.

 

[BrandonV]

I haven't really looked into it. I was assuming that the sensors would only be required on systems containing over "x" quantity of refrigerant.

ASHRAE Standard 15-2022 does call this out.

Anything over m1 generally needs to have a leak detection sensor minus a few exceptions to the rule.



Most units will call this out in the installation guide.

 

[fitter30]

Anytime there's a new refrigerant there is a learning curve and a class on it helps with a equipment manufacturer putting one on. We don't have any idea with this administration if there not going to keep R 410 since they repealed other EPA mandates.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

ASHRAE Standard 15-2022 does call this out.

Anything over m1 generally needs to have a leak detection sensor minus a few exceptions to the rule.



Most units will call this out in the installation guide.

I'm pretty sure most hvac systems hokd more than 3.9 pounds of refrigerant. Mine is a 3.5 ton. Nit sure what that would hold exactly. They makes it sound like the sensor is an external add on that can be left off.

 

[theoldwizard1]

... these new freon leak sensors ...

Just to be clear, Freon™ is a trademark for R12 refrigerant and has been phased out since 1987. The trademark is owned by Chemours which was spun off from Dupont in 2015.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Just to be clear, Freon™ is a trademark for R12 refrigerant and has been phased out since 1987. The trademark is owned by Chemours which was spun off from Dupont in 2015.

So what's it called then? Refrigerant?

 

[Hobby_Man22]

Basically all I'm asking is if I put one of these new systems in, am I going to have to constantly have someone come out to reset it everyone it locks up due to a gas detection? Or is it not that bad? Sounds like they should have enough Older r410a units for another year or so though.

 

[fitter30]

So what's it called then? Refrigerant?

Freon was Dupont (just like Coke/ Coke Cola, generic cola everyone calls it coke) Other brands Refrigerent or R 12. 1970 R 12 was 57¢ a lb in a 30 tank R 22 was 78¢ in a 30/lb tank both were in returnable aluminum tank that had a depot on them. 1970/71 throw way tanks came out with 30 & 50 lb. Carrier brought out Carrene 7 which was R 500 and their renaming refrigerant still today

 

[BrandonV]

I'm pretty sure most hvac systems hokd more than 3.9 pounds of refrigerant. Mine is a 3.5 ton. Nit sure what that would hold exactly. They makes it sound like the sensor is an external add on that can be left off.

Yup. It's more of a generic warning I assume York throws in their manual.

 

[WildBill]

I think your technician was talking out of his ****. I have installed a couple dozen new systems in the last two years and worked on a bunch of older ones, none of them have any sort of leak sensor that constantly trips. I have never heard of that as a real issue. If they are leaking enough to trip a sensor either the sensor is defective or the system needs repaired.

 

[BrandonV]

I think your technician was talking out of his ****. I have installed a couple dozen new systems in the last two years and worked on a bunch of older ones, none of them have any sort of leak sensor that constantly trips. I have never heard of that as a real issue. If they are leaking enough to trip a sensor either the sensor is defective or the system needs repaired.

I agree. Those sensors seem fairly robust.

Seems like some sort of scare tactic to get people to buy 410 systems now.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

I think your technician was talking out of his ****. I have installed a couple dozen new systems in the last two years and worked on a bunch of older ones, none of them have any sort of leak sensor that constantly trips. I have never heard of that as a real issue. If they are leaking enough to trip a sensor either the sensor is defective or the system needs repaired.

They just started selling the new systems at the beginning of this year.

 

[brewchief]

I've installed probably a dozen or so Bryant systems with 454b, can't get 410a systems in many sizes right now.
The leak detection sensor comes mounted in the coil and plugs into a simple box that gets mounted nearby that connects to the furnaces low voltage wiring, if it detects a leak it will shut the furnace or A/C off and run the blower for a period of time, once it sees that it's all clear it will reset.
If it were to fail it could be bypassed pretty easily.

Lennox uses basically the same thing, I have to do the A/C side of an r32 goodman next week and think it very similar as well.

As of right now most manufacturers except dakin/goodman/amana are using r454b, goodmana went with r32

 

[Hobby_Man22]

I think your technician was talking out of his ****. I have installed a couple dozen new systems in the last two years and worked on a bunch of older ones, none of them have any sort of leak sensor that constantly trips. I have never heard of that as a real issue. If they are leaking enough to trip a sensor either the sensor is defective or the system needs repaired.

Possibly. After talking to him on the phone I don't think he even knew if he was working on an r22 or r410a system. He thought the air handler was r410a. He misread the serial number and thought it was a 2016 model. It's a 2006 upstairs and 2008 downstairs. No telling though because after talking to him on the phone two days later after making probably 30 more house calls is pretty much useless. No offense to him, it's not really his fault. He's not going to remember my system or what it sounded like etc after all those stops

 

[Hobby_Man22]

I've installed probably a dozen or so Bryant systems with 454b, can't get 410a systems in many sizes right now.
The leak detection sensor comes mounted in the coil and plugs into a simple box that gets mounted nearby that connects to the furnaces low voltage wiring, if it detects a leak it will shut the furnace or A/C off and run the blower for a period of time, once it sees that it's all clear it will reset.
If it were to fail it could be bypassed pretty easily.

Lennox uses basically the same thing, I have to do the A/C side of an r32 goodman next week and think it very similar as well.

As of right now most manufacturers except dakin/goodman/amana are using r454b, goodmana went with r32

Well that's reassuring. Probably not any different than a float switch for the condensate drain pan. I mean I'd imagine it's just a switch if it can shut down the system

 

[4x4Pete]

I haven't been up to date in a few years now but this leak detector sounds like a ******** service call headache. Customer complaints will be overboard, it will be illegal to bypass, so customers will think techs are screwing them. Sooooooo happy to be out of that ****** trade! I'll keep my 410 system running forever.

 

[bonneyman]

I haven't been up to date in a few years now but this leak detector sounds like a ******** service call headache. Customer complaints will be overboard, it will be illegal to bypass, so customers will think techs are screwing them. Sooooooo happy to be out of that ****** trade! I'll keep my 410 system running forever.

I, too, am out of the industry. Miss the work but done with all the BS dealers and regulations.
I put a R22 unit on the house in 2011, will keep it going.

 

[AA/FC]

Just to be clear, Freon™ is a trademark for R12 refrigerant and has been phased out since 1987. The trademark is owned by Chemours which was spun off from Dupont in 2015.

No.... R-12 production was banned in 1995-96. (not 87) All existing R-12 inventory can legally be sold (with proper license) and used in the USA. Once it's gone, it's gone. It wasn't that long ago (maybe 5 years) that I could still buy recycled R-12 in 30 pound tanks from my local Napa.

I have roughly 45 pounds of virgin R-12 in my garage. I save it for classic and/or restored vehicles that deserve to keep their original A/C system.

 

[BurtEggley]

what does a motor capacitor have to do with a pressure sensor?

 

[Hobby_Man22]

what does a motor capacitor have to do with a pressure sensor?

Nothing. Just telling you what they did to my current system.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

So what about all these r-410a systems. What happens if you just need to replace a. Outside condensor or just an air handler? Are you SOL?

 

[justinjoyal]

400$ to replace a capacitor. Dayyyummm.

 

[BrandonV]

So what about all these r-410a systems. What happens if you just need to replace a. Outside condensor or just an air handler? Are you SOL?

I've seen nothing suggesting that parts will be unobtanium. It's really about complete systems and the refrigerant production itself.

Now will the makers of HVAC equipment toy with supply & demand to push people into new systems? Perhaps.

 

[Hobby_Man22]

400$ to replace a capacitor. Dayyyummm.

I know, that was a bit steep. It was actually $275 plus a $99 service call. I kind of think that's gay that they still charge the service call fee. That's supposed to pay for the people who just want you to diagnose it, then they fix it themselves etc. Or don't want you to fix it at all.

 

[bonneyman]

I wonder if my old TIF 8800 combustible gas detector will pick up R-32? Time to bring that puppy out of cold storage and fire it up!