Fried 2 boilers need help!!

[Winnipeg Jet]

Well here's the scoop...i bought a Hydro shark 3 10kw boiler from Menard's last year and installed it in my garage.My system is an exact copy of the engineered pre plumbed system that you can buy in their store.
I must say it worked perfectly last year without a problem.
So i turned it back on this fall and it worked just fine for about 2 months then for some reason it stopped working.
well i figured out it tripped the thermal cutoff on the boiler, so i reset it and it worked fine for about 2 weeks then it tripped the mini breaker on the boiler again? so i pushed it in then it worked for about a day then my electronic circuit board fried?
I sent it back to the distributors in Minnesota and they sent me a replacement unit.I hooked it up, re pressurized the system and it seemed to work fine for a bout 4 hours then ****!...the circuit board fried again.&*$#@#%..!!..
What the heck is causing it to fry??...as far as electrical coming in to the unit all i have is 220 hooked up to a double 50 amp breaker...
I don't know where to look at this point...
everything else seems OK...pumps are working, i have good flow in all the loops, pressure is steady at 18 psi like they recommend, glycol mix is the right strength...
any help would be greatly appreciated thanks..
Dan.

 

[yevangelis]

I would get a hold of the manufacturer of the boiler and explain the problem

 

[Winnipeg Jet]

i did call them back today but they don't seem to have a solution??
they suggested i maybe go with a 12kw boiler and try that?
i cant see how that would make a difference..
an electrician friend of mine is going to come by tomorrow and poke his multimeter around in there and see if he can figure anything out..
is it possible that i can have some sort of 'loose neutral'?? in the panel somewhere causing an intermittent voltage spike at the boiler??
i'm grasping at straws here...

 

[malibu101]

is it possible that i can have some sort of 'loose neutral'?? in the panel somewhere causing an intermittent voltage spike at the boiler??
QUOTE]
No.
220/240 has no neutral/ground connection. Yes, there is a ground for safety but the resistance elements are simply 240VAC.
Unless it is like an "old" 3-prong dryer or range that used the ground to carry the neutral for any 120VAC loads within that device but I highly doubt that.
I'd look somewhere beside a loose neutral but of course search and prbe every possible combination.

 

[Winnipeg Jet]

All i can think of is that there is some sort of voltage spike or short? causing the circuitry to fail, but really i cant see how.
i'm almost tempted to rip everything out and just run the 2 circ pumps through a 6 gallon hot water tank and leave it at that...open system with a simple thermostat reading temp of the slab and the pumps running non stop.
at least i will have heat...

 

[nehog]

As an EE, I'd sure want to look at the boards and see what is actually failing. Good design practice says that they should not fail unless there are faulty parts (or faulty assembly, such as bad solder joints, etc.) The boards should be either self protecting, or have protection built into the system (fuses/circuit breakers) to prevent failure of the hardware.

 

[Winnipeg Jet]

well a friend of mine who is a certified electrician just left.He checked voltage,he looked for possible shorts, and he checked the load center etc...
he said everything is good on my end so i have removed the boiler and i will be shipping it back to them this afternoon.
i'm more than a little annoyed but there's not much i can do but wait to hear back from them.

 

[Fastback]

I'm curious, what size is the wire powering the heater?

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Have you de limed the unit? It may have deposits inside of it that are causing the thermal switch to react to the higher temperatures and trip it out. This is a problem with all small compact electrically heated units, they need a lot of de liming.

 

[Winnipeg Jet]

i am using 6 gauge wire the recommended size for 50 amp.
as far as deliming??...the last boiler was brand new and only lasted approximately 8 or so hours so i don't think that would have been the issue.

 

[sdowney717]

it sounds like a poor product.
cant handle your power sounds like an excuse.

 

[charger891]

kinda wierd that it worked flawlessly last year and this year your having problems, years ago we had a problem at a shop we were renting with the boiler similar to what your having, fried a bunch of electrical boards and even replaced the complete boiler twice, got a different plumbing company to come in and they noticed right away what the problem was, they were controlling the amount of heat by shutting and turning on the pumps! the boiler wouldnt shut off boiling the water till the cutt off would be activated, did some switching around and worked flawlessly ever since.

 

[Fastback]

kinda wierd that it worked flawlessly last year and this year your having problems, years ago we had a problem at a shop we were renting with the boiler similar to what your having, fried a bunch of electrical boards and even replaced the complete boiler twice, got a different plumbing company to come in and they noticed right away what the problem was, they were controlling the amount of heat by shutting and turning on the pumps! the boiler wouldnt shut off boiling the water till the cutt off would be activated, did some switching around and worked flawlessly ever since.

Very good point, my demand electric is flow based, if the pump stops the heater stops instantly, I don't know if a hydro shark works like that?

 

[Possum]

It does. I bought one. Pulled it out of the box, opened the cover, saw the guts, sent it back. I took some pictures, would you like to see them?

Very good point, my demand electric is flow based, if the pump stops the heater stops instantly, I don't know if a hydro shark works like that?

 

[Winnipeg Jet]

well thats supposed to be how it works, no flow no heat, there is some sort of flow sensor in the unit.
Just talked with a local contractor over the phone and he seems to think the issue is that there is possibly some sort of flow restriction somewhere in my system? He says those small micro boilers need high flow or they will get too hot and ,or if there is any cavitation of air somewhere the elements will fry causing the circuit board to malfunction.
I thought i had good flow? the manufacturer told me i should have the first pump set to high and the second pump set to medium?Maybe both pumps should be on high.Also i have fluid that constantly drips a litle out of my air scoop above the expansion tank why?He seems to think that my glycol level may be to high causing a slow leak at the air bleed therefore also causing air infiltation or possible cavitation, funny thing is my pressure didnt seem to change.
what do you guys think?

 

[Fastback]

You have to figure your feet of head to determine flow rate first.

Use your longest loop to determine your feet of head in your system, then set your pumps speed to that.

For example, I have to run my Taco 007R at low to hit the target rate outlined by the charts with 9' of head pressure. I have 720SF with only 2 runs, you have more runs, so you have less foot of head.

Also,
If your second pump has an IFC (Integrated flow control valve) then the first pump is just trying to shove fluid past it and not doing any good.



EDIT:
Also, while Im here, I would suggest modifying that system and getting that air vent higher than the heater....hell, higher than everything if you can.

 

[Fastback]

It does. I bought one. Pulled it out of the box, opened the cover, saw the guts, sent it back. I took some pictures, would you like to see them?

Yes please, I have pics of the el-cheapo Titan also.

 

[Winnipeg Jet]

Hmmmm, good point on the air vent, do you think that could be part of my problem,that im not realy venting out all the air and i am getting high temps in the boiler because of some sort of air lock?
now that you mentioned it i went and looked at a bunch of installs using the same boilers and all of their vents are higher that the boilers...uh oh, maybe it is my fault these babies are burning up?

 

[charger891]

vent definately has to be way higher that the boiler, years ago at mty first house i owned i built a system using a hot water tank, my vent was 4 ft higher than the tank.

 

[Fastback]

Anything that can cause cavitation should be addressed, things like sharp bends and unneeded items...like pumps that dont need to exist or filters etc..

 

[CADPoint]

...
well i figured out it tripped the thermal cutoff on the boiler, so i reset it and it worked fine for about 2 weeks then it tripped the mini breaker on the boiler again? so i pushed it in then it worked for about a day then my electronic circuit board fried?

Since you've been tripping breaker's...

You need to get an electrician in there and meggar the the circuit from the panel, IE tests the wire's insulation. They will disconnect both ends of the wire and run the test.

I'd make sure that nothing banged the PVC during the Spring and Summer.

 

[tdkkart]

vent definately has to be way higher that the boiler, years ago at mty first house i owned i built a system using a hot water tank, my vent was 4 ft higher than the tank.

I wouldn't say that it as to WAY higher, but the system in photo 3 above the air bubbler needs to be moved so that it is the high point in the system, above the boiler. As it is now there could be air getting trapped in the top of the boiler, which could indeed cause circulation problems.

 

[Winnipeg Jet]

Yah you are absolutely right.
i am going to change that asap.as soon as i recieve another boiler, i hope they will still warranty the last one evn though it seems like it may be my fault that it cooked.