frost free garage hose bib

[HoosierMark]

Built my barn a couple of years ago and installed a 12 inch frost free hydrant thru the wall. This is the first year I left the water on over the winter. The hydrant is thru the wall into a 2x4 wall that is insulated and has plywood on both sides of it. Although barn is not heated the lowest i have seen it get is 38 degrees. Came out a couple of days ago and water was running out of the faucet. I could not shut it off. I took it all apart and found the plastic shut off was broken 11 inches in the wall. It is plastic and a piece broke off. I replaced it and everything is good. What i am trying to figure out is what I need to change so it does not happen again. Do I need to angle the pipe down so water can run out when it is shut off? Do I need to insulate it better or ? I also thought of opening the wall and letting it be exposed to the inside room via an air vent cover. I assume the 5 degree cold weather caused the water to freeze so how do I prevent it in the future? I thought frost free would protect me and 12 inches was plenty far back in the wall to be safe. Apparently the cold just traveled in and froze a few drops of water to crack the plastic valve.

What confuses me is what keeps the pipe from being the conduit of cold from outside to the inside valve. The water supply is from a pex line.

 

[TractorJeff]

Being warmer than 38 degrees

 

[CraigStu]

I think you are going to need to drain the system. I think that frost free bibs are designed to be used where the inside of the building is heated. I know you haven't seen it below 38* but I am thinking it gets colder at 4AM than it is when you look at the thermometer. W/ an unheated barn, the only thing keeping the inside warmer than the outside is the lack of wind chill factor inside.

 

[GaryM909]

Mine in my house froze and split from leaving the hose hooked up.

 

[Innovate1]

Those faucets rely on heat from the inside of the building. If the backside of the faucet (the part in the perpendicular 2 x 4 wall) has insulation around it the little bit of heat from the 38 degree building is going to have a hard time getting to the faucet. You are right that the faucet, being metal, is a path or conduit for the cold from the outside. Opening the walls at the rear end of the faucet to expose it will help. But probably not enough to keep it from freezing at only 38 inside.

Hooking copper to the backside also helps warm the inside portion. PEX is a pretty good insulator and doesn't. I have one faucet that extends into an interior wall. For that one I got an extra long frost free faucet as it's in a wall - the interior wall isn't insulated but it doesn't have any air circulation. For the faucet on the other side it extends into the space but is much shorter as I didn't want it sticking out any farther than possible. So I put a copper elbow and short copper riser on the inside of the wall before converting to PEX. That keeps the valve portion at the back of the frost free faucet warm. We had some unusually cold temps for a couple weeks recently and no issues but my space is heated to about 60. I may pick up some Styrofoam faucet covers to put on them in the winter though as additional protection.

The faucet should slope slightly down to the outside so when off there is no water beyond the valve.

 

[Wrench97]

Wrap heat tape around it, buy the one with a built in thermostatic switch.

 

[Jackfre]

I find those bibs to be a giant pita. I have two here but our climate is much more moderate than IN. They are difficult to close. You really have to get on them to have a firm shut-off. And, they do not last, as you have found. I think it better to skip the m and simply put a ball valve inside to control the bib and better freeze protection..

 

[Milton Shaw]

Drain the water line if you are not going to heat the building. It will freeze when it gets that cold inside and have a lot of damage when it thaws. Ask anybody that lives in Texas. It would not hurt to blow out the pipe to get standing water in low spots out or it may freeze there too.

 

[finn]

Install Ballcock shutoff inside the building, then open the “frost free” valve in the fall.

Simply put, the temperature gradient between the 38 degrees inside the barn and outside ambient isn’t great enough to overcome the heat transfer from the exposed sill o kill to the atmosphere.

You have to revert to fifties technology here, ie an inside shutoff Thea lets you drain the pipe.

 

[matt_i]

I would advise gravity drain, place a ball valve inside somewhere its accessible and always warm.

For fall shutdown, close that ball valve, remove hose and open the sillcock and simply let water gravity drain out and be replaced by air.

This is assuming a downward or level setup, if its uphill or involves any u-bends then you'd need to have a low point drain or a point for air injection.

 

[jkuro]

Do I need to angle the pipe down so water can run out when it is shut off?

YES

 

[fattogatto]

There is an item called "Freeze Miser" that you screw on to the faucet. Then you turn the water on. It has a temperature controlled valve that begins to open when the water temp gets down to 37F. Until then it stays shut. It will cycle at the 37F spot, allowing a drip when needed. You can attach to a hose safely. I use 3 foot standard hoses with a Freeze Miser on the end. Install at the beginning of winter and remove in the spring.

 

[BruceMc]

They work fine if installed correctly, which as others have pointed out, means the valve end is kept warm and the valve drains when closed.

I have one that's been working for 17 years. It's been through 17 winters where temperatures are regularly below zero for months at a time, and has seen temps as low as -55F. The only real problem is that in the spring the seat takes a bit of tapping to loosen up and function again.

 

[HoosierMark]

Thanks to all of you for your responses. It sounds like my problem is the lack of heat in the barn and the cold being able to creep up the pipe. I now need to determine which solution will work best for me.

 

[Jeepster04]

I suppose they do allow the cold air to go back up inside of them but there is nothing for the cold air to freeze. There is typically enough warmth on the backside to keep the water from freezing, so all is well.

They must be angled to drain. Not sure if it'll matter in your situation since its in a non heated wall.

 

[lml999]

W/ an unheated barn, the only thing keeping the inside warmer than the outside is the lack of wind chill factor inside.

Over time, the temperature inside will drop to match a constant temperature outside. And heat *transfer* (cooling) might happen more quickly in the wind.

However, wind chill is purely a measure of *perceived* temperature. It has no relevance to inanimate objects, such as a building.

 

[ford33]

Without heat, the bib AND the exposed pipe will freeze. One or the other will break. Insulation provides resistance to heat transfer which is R value. The insulation will attain outside temperature if there is no warmer temperature and it gets very cold on exterior wall surfaces in IN.

If you need water outside the garage then heat tape around the interior bib and also around the entire length of pipe until you terminate into a heated space will work. But if you don't need water in the winter, install a shut-off in the water pipe inside a heated space like the source of water to the barn.

My neighbor installed a frost free hose bib in the front wall of his unheated garage. A couple years ago, I arrived home to see water pouring out of his garage under the main door. The interior copper pipe froze inside the garage. The neighbor wasn't home and this water was turning to a sheet of ice on the short driveway, sidewalk and street. The police and the fire department were called. They broke into the garage and then into the house to shut-off the water.

I have to believe the city charged him for this service call and for salt on the sidewalk and street and then ticketed him for creating a hazardous condition on the city sidewalk and street.

 

[BruceMc]

I just assumed these were well known, but maybe not in warmer climates? For added insualtion you can stuff some f-glass or even rags inside before covering up the hose bib. You can get these really cheap at the big box stores.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001FG3C1C/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[yeldogt]

I find those bibs to be a giant pita. I have two here but our climate is much more moderate than IN. They are difficult to close. You really have to get on them to have a firm shut-off. And, they do not last, as you have found. I think it better to skip the m and simply put a ball valve inside to control the bib and better freeze protection..

Most are a pain ... even the "better" ones seem to leak after a while.

Aquor are the solution .... problem solved.

The OP has a different problem that none would solve -- he needs more heat

 

[HoosierMark]

I have solved my problem. I removed plywood wall covering and rerouted pex to another area to allow for a shutoff and drain valve. I made sure pex runs down hill from frost free hydrant. Plus when I put plywood back I am going to cut an air vent in about 10 x 10 to allow air to get to the hydrant. Maybe not needed but it is in an area that will not show and when I do maintain a warmer temp in barn it will stay warmer. I have the vent cover already and the plywood is loose and easy to cut so no reason not to. Pllus I can easily service it or stick insulation in the area if I desire.